Ben01

I like the velour too! BTW what is this "remote" with cable at rear armrest controls??

Use google images, there are a few versions... 😄

Do you quote Jaguar 1988 dealers, or smth? 🤣 and what do we know about "design and engineering" details of exactly LS500 or LC500? Anybody who really buy them now is interested in quality of plugs and sockets, insulation of wires? dig into rubber in suspension parts, or design of it? Etc. Let's don't fool ourselfs - everybody like reliability, and keep hope for max reliability, for his/her hard gained money, but with the brand new products there are only hope and marketing promises.

Another markup I have just figured: premium car should be defined by "these days, this place and time", but by the age of target group too. Because perception of premium car, even here and now, by grumpy me or lexus buyers (IIRC it was a moment the average rand new lexus buyer was 60yr old?) and by 25-30yr old people, probably are very different. And, in fact, probably in every dimension which define our perception - economical and social environment, our status, age, gender too (gasp, run, a hide).

Interesting... is LOC has taste of normal sushi, but volvo forum: sushi made from swedish meatballs wrapped in tweed? 🤪

As I understand this point: anything you could compare with any "norm", and in enough "scopes" to impress and to convince public and their perception? ("enough" is difficult to define here, but nobody expect quiet Lambo and people complained about quiet lexuses or audis; it always could be more toys; etc etc) Sometimes creative marketing included, of course.

Sorry, you stubbornly back to this, I have to back to this - how exactly "reliability party" measures durability and reliability of brand new car at Lexus dealership, or any dealership? How do you know if new LS500 WILL BE reliable and durable, except "I HOPE it will be reliable like elder LSes"? I may logically argue "any GS430 2002 (better - with same week of production) like mine, but with lower mileage and better service history than mine, would be same or more reliable as my GS". But on the brand new models, and even after liftings, new suppliers for parts, etc? How you validate new cars reliability? except broader "I love and trust Lexus", of course. Or "BMW". Or "Mercedes Benz". But why we call it "reliability".

IMHO "heritage" means nothing in context, is another term for "perception of brand" (simularcrum). And there is some kind of fallacy here: what if somebody brings totaly new premium brand without heritage (like lexus in late '80 - reason of very existence of Lexus was to cut any perception and mental connections to common toyotas in '80 US especially). I think second part (over and above) is most valid. And this is core issue - it is necessary and essentialy condition, but in public and personal PERCEPTION of norm and what is above norm, not in reality. And on later level of this game, people are stupid "pattern recognition" monkeys and they project this perception to other "similar" objects, like "merc CLA with tiny diesel is similar to premium mercedes car" 😐

IMHO it is Aston joke vs. EU bureaucracy only. They had to sell some lo-emission cars to balance V12 sales volume, so they made a joke "lets take smallest cheapest cars from the current market and sell them with cushions and 3 times price tag". Ta-da! Cygnet! It is not premium vs. not-premium case, it is fight on "creativness" between ecological lawmakers and manufacturers looking for loopholes.

Probably is still posible to run hi-beams as DRL in your car, but I heavy doubt if anything is factory prepared for this. Rewiring this (with bunch of relays) is depending on what bulb is in hi-beams (HID does not work "half-light"...) and how car recognises faulty lamps, etc. details. Let's say, even if everything is "friendly" type, it is a lot of work. I am pro with electric/elecronic and rebuilt much crazier parts of my cars (big score - remote start of car by mobile phone, like 10 years ago...) but never built DRL-of-hibeams, it is a lot of work for mediocre upgrade, it was much easier to nail any additional DRL lamps. BTW on every my GS (third now) I got on my "to do" list "DRL" and never did any (yet). On the side note - it should be hi-beams only, not headlamps conversion, and it's DRL, not DLR.

I asked an old friend who moved into elder volvo ranges last years (as I moved into elder lexus), and he is pretty technical and trusted - he says "it is ok, everything normal, reliability normal, sounds fabulous 😉 ". He recommended to proper service in the beginning, as always, plus add. focus on all hosing and pipes around turbo system, in elder volvo's there are sometimes loosing hoses, missing clamps etc. detoriate performace a bit. With good example and after "tight up" everything, it should be good ride in his mind.

Yeah, me and you, enlighted people from LOC, know what mercedes is and even my wife has laughed in disbelief on this rusty abandoned SL500 next to our door, BUT: is the Mercedes still premium? I feel, yes for 99% people "these days" and this place/country, so it proves "Reliability is not very important for Premium". End of story. (edit) BTW it is valid anecdote about perception of Merc too - there is a bit rusty SL500 2002, with fancy plate, literally abandoned for more than week, on semi-public parking next to us; it stays on flat tyre (at minimum). I met our landlady for other stuff at the parking last days, and I asked if this merc is known or from neighbourhood? and she was "What a nice car! Oh, is flat tyre.", and I was "WTF? from what PoV is this nice car.". And conclusion was nobody knows what and why it is here. But you know, "what a nice car!".

Linas, valid point, topic is "... these days", but it should be "... these days and this place". My similar anecdote is not about premium, but once upon a time I was the same, at the Polish airport hire in the middle of the night and after a bit fight, instead sit into "focus or golf equivalent" they pressed me into Renault Fluence, unholly brood of Renault and Samsung, made in Turkey, I think. Monsters.

To "reliability party" - it does not matter how badly are you offended by me or by existence of Mercedes, but still: Mercedes outsells much more reliable Lexus 3 fold, or even more. And nobody with minimum sanity argues Mercedes is no premium brand nor most of their fleet are non-premium cars. Yes, maybe long term they will be dead like disco for today inferior quality, but I heard this in 1998 too when A klasse rolled over into the scene, or later when they started to paint C-klasse such ecolololo people have seen the raw metal thru, on brand new premium cars. After such 20 years Mercedes as brand looks still pretty alive for the corpse, and I don't think it will be much different in next 20 years. BTW unreliable Merc, Jag etc. - is the Alfa Romeo premium or luxury brand or not?

Sir, rusty merc SL500 2002 next to my zero-rust GS430 2002 at the parking yard at the moment has asked to urgent message you: "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" 😝

Discuss is difficult because we all mess "premium brand" or marque and "premium car" or particular vehicle (VW Phaeton is a premium car but far away from premium brand, BMW 1 series is far away from premium car, but it is still premium brand). BTW I have a feeling this kind of "mismatch marketing" is not working now. I like Piech text "if Phaeton gives 10 euro on every Golf, we win", but it does not work like this anymore, I think. It was like that in '70 maybe '80, but in all "westernized" modern societies social and economical stratification are back to some XIXw models; and in particular subject - target groups for big automotive brands (which try to cover "all segments" in sake of greed and lower costs), premium or not, are very distant. And gaps between those target groups become huge now. Target of CT and LS, Lupo and Phaeton, 1 series and 7 series, what exactly they have in common? two hands, two legs, one head, one iphone? because not a job, welth, education, neighbourhood, ideas, etc. so common part is epsilon, near zero. The "premium factor" of lexus LS or S klasse encourage poorer people a little to CT or A merc, the "peasant factor" of CT or A klasse discourage rich people a little from LS or merc S. It looks like "badge factor" (Lexus or VW) still exists, but only as a very artificial historical-marketing construct, in very distance from any real premium (LS or Phaeton) or real non-premium (CT or Lupo) cars. Welcome to the world of simulacra?

Leak between the O2 probes could confuse ECU and makes nasty idle, but if it is realy bad, it should drops error on cat or probes (like P0420). If there is no error on cat/probes, but a bunch of errors on inlet, stay focus on inlet. Air temp sensor and air flow meter HAVE TO be fixed (or any reason they throw errors has to be fixed, it could be sensor, electronic/electric, "pneumatics", etc), before any move (and cost) further, to O2 sensors, ECU etc. If temp gauge is dead the coolant temp sensor could badly fool ECU too (I don't remember if this LS has two ECT sensors or common one for gauge and ECU). In whole picture, it could be nasty and/or stupid electrical problem, like broken harness core or in-plug pin, or smth like this - it is not normal you lost a few sensors at once, they probably lost the common power supply or similar problem.

Last weeks were busy, so not much on GS, only nice fly over Scotland (daily commuting is still fabulous, and there was some motorway comfy cruising - Edinburgh/Fringe time). I did not rebuild mp3 power circuit yet, but we have tested it intensively. Even too intensively, as first attempt to put in jack cable (to daughter mobile as music source) destroyed jack socket... but it was opportunity to test this mp3 player's bluetooth capability - it works nice, I never tested it in first GS with same module. And rear USB power socket was useful for daughter in the back on longer trips, 1.5A capability is less than I planned initialy, but enough to play with the phone and it is still charges up. I touched curbs with passenger front rim twice (and badly) this week. It is good luck I still did not refurbish rims, but I start to think - maybe I should install this reverse camera I bought and shelf, like: under the passenger mirror with view on the front wheel... BTW rims: I was ready to buy any new or near new rims last weeks, but hold last moment, rims I could afford there are not same I really like... so back to "let's try to refurbish at home, it could be good enough for banger barge". Today was no rain, so I try a first attempt to do something with rims. It was normal job for me, but test on spare wheel revealed the paint I bought is too bright for my taste and idea at the moment (it's smoke gray metalic, IIRC vauxhall paint). In the other words, it is not "different" enough (especially in the flesh and sun, not in the camera) from normal silver alloys to worth all troubles. No problemo, I will find other paint, next attempt - next weekend or anytime. Rims job was canceled, so I back to [censored] head lamps - as I mentioned, somebody has varnished them for protection or customizing or whatever. All this varnish was yellowish, microcracking, makes glare and looks awful. I attempted polish first, like immediately after landing at home with GS, "oh, common yellowishness" - not really and no result. Next attempt was sandpaper 1500 and polish harder - minor upgrade. So today I was "f off, let's dance". I tested on the edge of the lamp, and I DID NOT [CENSORED] BELIEVE, I had to move down to paper 320 and found TWO layers of le crappe laquere... So next I was "kill'em all", 6 hours later it is better, but not ideal, and they need machine polishing probably (it was manual job, wet papers 320, 800, 1500, and deep cut polish fluid). Or I should drop them out and play with even more aggresive methods (but I hate the bumper removal etc.). Or I should buy a new lamps. BTW lamps: I replaced an old Silvanas in hi beams with Osram Nightbreakers, like a week or two ago, and I like them.

Linas, very valid point about quality!=premium, I forgot to clarify this in "reliability" subtopic. I disagree about "Lexus is not Japanese now" or "enough", to echoing Japanese master vs. customer tradition. Does this guy look American for you? (Yoshihiro Sawa, Japanese native, boss of Lexus, with Toyota since 1980). All main Toyota and Lexus decision makers are old school Japanese; Tahara Plant is home of production of Lexus flagships, especially LS, for decades; any promising concept, even if designed in USA or elsewhere, is moved to Aichi Center to finalise (like LF-LC became LC500), etc, etc. Don't mistake their focus on the American or Middle East or any market with "become American" or "Saudi". Lexus is still Japanese "family", still with vision set up by Toyoda decades ago. Yes, they adapt, change, rebrand toyotas, but in the core it is still Japanese company and management. In my mind explanation by different cultures is slightly more probable than "Toyota is lazy and non-customer friendly, BMW or VAG is opposite" 🤣 About JIT etc. - as I said, it's difficult to guess and I am not sure. But on the other hand, as far as I know, Toyota JIT compared to other manufacturers JIT often is like their JIT compared to NHS JIT...

True, but if it really is in the wax/fluid it could residue in some parts (inner edges, etc.). Same with silicone agents in polishing fluids etc. And next if you have to, or try to, respray affected parts, even after heavy use of very aggresive solvents on very solid preparation, could be very nasty suprise. BTDT once or twice, worst case was spare bonnet I only TESTED some polishing agent in part of the bonnet. Next after year or more I used this bonnet in the project. I use proper solvents, and proper preparation, spray, and you have perfectly seen where was "test area", so again, sanding, solvents, spray, better result, but not ideal. I have given up (and was out of paint leftovers, it was full car respray) after third spray, still affected area was a visible a bit...

Obviously. I made very stupid survey today - I asked my wife and daughter how they defined "premium car", let's say with three main factors or "traits". Adult daughter (zero petrolheadness) defined them as "extremely comfortable, quiet and very good looking". But wife (mildly petrolhead) was killing me: "heated windscreen, heated steering wheel, seats memory" 🤨 when I argued it is bloody specific she has retort "other stuff is obvious"

Eristic "tricks don't work on me. Only money." 😝 Yes, but I think you focus on "everlasting" or "reliability" of this "materials/component" a little too much. In the car with a few year warranty and premium aspirations there is much more factors and dimensions to discuss than above. But enough on this, I think.

Do you really try to share opinion "we shall redefine quality in dictionaries"? or you don't get difference between "neccesary and sufficient" and "neccesary and non-sufficient" condition (here: reliability as condition for quality)?

So why not upgrade to humongously expensive designers stainless steel seats, over premium Genuine Leather or similar? Maybe "comfort", "ergonomy", "feeling", even "smell" etc. are important too, not only "reliability"?

But guys, the most reliable caterpillar or tractor in the world is not exactly best quality vehicle or premium one, even with Lamborghini badge 😁 And I don't believe even you focus on reliability as most or only important factor for quality or premium definition. Logically, yes, any and every lack of reliability negate quality, but reliability alone does not define quality.