Linas.P

You are always welcome to prove me wrong! That said it requires little bit than more than basic, common and easily debunkable fallacies to do that. You saying it has no basis or substance does not really prove anything, apart of that you disagree with me, you may as well disagree and be wrong. Or we can both disagree and both be right, because we have different values, needs etc. when it comes to car ownership. And why shouldn't I be critical of the vehicles Lexus puts out if they are no good? Again what is basis of your argument? Even if they are sales success that doesn't mean they are good cars, and even if they are good cars then it doesn't mean I have to like them. And who are you to tell me not to talk negatively about them? And what NON-superficial experience do you have to be able to say anything? Does owning RX450h/UX300e and previously if I remember correctly IS300h makes you "certified expert" on all matters Lexus? or simply being always positive about everything regardless of objective truth is what counts?

I think now we getting somewhere... and perhaps then they could go after BMW when they ready for it... that said I still think they made mistake marketing the car that way. First impressions matter and now they may actually have to put-out way better car and still deal with public perception long after the fact. That said I tried S90 T8, which even thought not Hybrid Max, the principle is the same - they have ICE in the front and they have electric in the rear, so they can claim it is AWD, but there is no shaft going to the rear wheels. The S90 T8 is impressive in straight line, but around the corners it still understeers all the way. What I am trying to say - Hybrid Max can make ES a fast car, but I doubt it will handle well. Me doubting obviously doesn't amount to much, torque vectoring may be so advance that it may feel like proper RWD or even better, but that remains to be seen.

I would gladly subscribe to this model - IS-F is good example... however at least in UK Lexus seems to offer opposite. 300h F-Sport (of any model) looks very sporty and nice and you would expect they are fast... except they are not. If we had ES350 AWD or maybe imaginary ES-F AWD then my opinion about it would be much more positive, it being Toyota Avalon is not a bad thing, it being FWD, underpowered and boring to drive is.

It is not Turbo...

But isn't that part of why Luxury cars exists? Isn't that is why BMW can sell 5-Series for more money than similarly sized Hyundai or Toyota Avalon? Because as per many examples above, even Prius and Hyundai could do most if not all the same things are Lexus can, the difference is that Lexus is Luxury car, so people will pay more for it being Luxury. Yet the same people put BMW or MB above Lexus based on their perception and that is issue for Luxury brand (if public does not consider them to be Luxury). So I appreciate what you saying, there is niche of the market for people who want nice cars, but actually wants to stay under the radar and be different... and Lexus good for that, but they don't have wider appeal in countries where they are not being considered equally as Luxurious, in the end of the day majority of people buying these Luxury items want everyone to know they are Luxurious... they want to be confident everyone knows that. I personally don't own Lexus because I want to show off either. I simply wanted cheapest way into car of certain quality and Lexus at some point in the past was perfect match for it, more feature rich than BMW, better built, better materials and technically "luxury" brand. It ticket a lot of boxes for me, but at the same time for me car must be RWD, it must be above average in terms of engine power and speed, and it must not bet SUV... so as you can imagine I am less than thrilled with current line-up.

Not that I need to defend myself for having an opinion and to be fair kind people above already said enough! But... The 34MPG is not an opinion, that is fact based on my own driving, and I don't only know, but as well I do care, so why would I say otherwise? Are you trying to tell me that 34MPG I got on my driving is not true? Am I lying about it? And that is very important to understand - I don't need to own IS300h to know what MPG I can achieve in it. So you can indeed say - "I get better MPG", but you can't say "you don't know because you don't own it". If I said "all IS300h only ever get's 34MPG and nobody can get better than that and owners are just lying to you and they don't achieve their stated MPG" - that would be an opinion and that would be wrong opinion. Whenever I was right or wrong to state the figure is debatable, but I am quite confident me owning the car would have made no difference. Just to be safe I even went back to the post to clarify that based on my driving style and type of driving I was doing I may have gotten lower MPG than average owner:

You either have something contrary to say, or don't argue. You can't be right by just refusing to talk... And look I get your point - you just want to be in lovely community where everyone compliments each other in the bubble of dreams and fantasies and not injure your brain by thinking about anything more difficult, or objective, or god forbid not positive. There are actually quite a few people like that here - comes polishes their car, post pictures, collects few likes and never gets into any discussion about anything... But then don't start the argument if you are not prepared to defend you position. And we don't need to agree about anything, that is fine as well, however when you say that somebody is wrong it would be common courtesy to say why as well. Bye and have a good day!

That is for optional insurance and not for courtesy car, so you could always decline the "offer". But by doing so you picking-up 500-1000 excess.

Yeah they totally went to town with it, presumably because it was guaranteed profit on the account of Lexus UK. The problem was that one of the motors was getting "weak" (the one that moves back of the seat forwards backward) and I would need to lean forward to "help" it out and it would take long time to get the back of the seat-up. Anyway - they had car for 2 weeks, completely replaced everything - all motors, wiring, screws etc. at the cost of £4200, not sure what part of that costs was parts and what was labour, but I presume labour was major part of it. Now to my surprise Lexus does not sell complete seats and one would think it would be cheaper to just replace it for such cost, but apparently that was not an option. No - labour 100% stays with dealer, and the parts they get on highly discounted cost. I have never tried to calculate the profit margin on service, but just from my experience they don't seem to want it too much. Not sure why... "Essential Care" was amazing value thought... I think I paid like £160 for minor service and you can't get car serviced for that price even at halfrauds or kwikfrauds... nevermind any mainstream brand dealership. So perhaps they didn't want to do those. And since then I always had service plans that were as part of sales package, so I never paid anything for servicing for like last 4 years. This may or may not have impact on how they were not interested to deal with me as I was not really "paying customer".

To be honest I am not even sure playing it loud is what makes them fail... or maybe they being shaken to bits (by being little bit fragile), or overheat by being fitted on the parcel shelf and baking in the sun.

...ohhh and you not even right on what little "you have on me". Yes 530e was never EXEMPT, but until October 2021 it was eligible for CVD https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0573-2021 So it was not exempt per-say, but it received 100% discount as long as you had registered and paid £10 annual fee. In short whenever you call it exempt or if you say that you get 100% discount for £10 per year, that is semantics at best - point is, for long time plug-in hybrids didn't need to pay congestion charge... that has changed in 2021. Fine! But that for long time was still major benefit of plug-in hybrid versus having "self-charging" hybrid.

ohhh... what a hero we have here! Now you going to cling on one single point (from literally 100s I made) where I may have been wrong to prove your point! Great - I concede, you proven one of my points wrong... 99 to go! I even give you a little treat, throw you "a bone" let's say... it doesn't go 0-60 in 5.1s either... it is actually 5.9s! I can hear a little Toyota ES owner gremlin screaming "hang and quarter!" We again getting into fallacies territory - faulty generalisation types to be specific. So you now implying that I am always wrong, because I was wrong in one (or two) cases. And as well you cherry-picking... you can't defeat my argument as a whole, so you picked on what little wrong there is and you pretend to be victorious! Well done to you! Isn't that a little bit lazy?

Not sure, because the conditions keeps changing and as you know not for the better. The last time I have checked it was and at least at some point vehicles that emitted less than 75g/Co2 were exempt, BMW 530e emits 49g/Co2... on paper, so should be exempt. Either they changed this exemption, or certain 530e models emit more than 75g. ditto... just for a record, I do own Lexus and I could not care less what you think, nor you can tell me what to do. So get lost! If you have such a big issue with people who have different opinion, then LOC has solution for you - there is ignore function. I use it and it works very well... now contrary to what you said, I find some of you comments useful... sometimes, but if that is not mutual then I honestly not going to lose any sleep over it. And it sounds kind of childish... grown-up man complaining on the forum that comment is too long. Just don't read it!

Indeed... isn't it funny... I literally remarked the same to them, so when I inspected the car I said - "brakes seems to be worn out, lipped at the front", the sales guy told me "car had pre-sales inspection and brakes are fine", I then jokingly said "you saying it now, but I am sure that when I bring the car for service next year you will tell me that all brakes needs replacing because discs are lipped"... Then I asked to see pre-sales inspection and it was from August or September, when I was negotiating on the car in December. Car has not done much miles, 2000 maybe, but I insisted on them doing pre-sales again. They agreed in writing as part of the closing of the deal to do new pre-sales inspection. When I came to pick-up the car and asked about pre-sales inspection I was told they did it and nothing worth noting came back. 3000-miles later another dealer diagnosed brakes as non-existent. And by the way they didn't try to scam me, because I went there for seat issue on warranty and I as well said my brakes are squeaking and kind of making scraping sound... so I myself asked them about it and it wasn't just coming out of nowhere. Now - I normally do such things myself, and do inspections myself... but because it was nearly new car and it was under warranty I both not bothered and almost deliberately stayed away from it, because I didn't want to have any issues with them saying I did something on brakes. The inspection results - front pads 1mm, discs below minimum thickness, rears, 3mm outside, worn down to metal inside, disc badly scored (which makes sense if there was metal on metal contact and I literally could hear it). Reading try to argue that maybe I tracked the car or something (seriously tracked RC200t?!) so I went back to another dealer and said "is it possible that pads would wear down don't to the metal in just 3000 miles"... and they kind of didn't want to commit to it "saying yeah maybe, if you tracked, but realistically... no.. not possible... even then perhaps pads could wear say 4-5mm, but the disc could not wear so much below minimum thickness in 3000". Finally, I said please show me pre-sales inspection from December, quoting e-mail where they said they will do it... and they said "last inspection was done in September"... ooops! So that was end of the story - "sorry guys you didn't inspect the car before selling it to me, so how can you claim that is wear and tear?!". Agree - it makes sense, working on old clunkers isn't every mechanics dream... and effort required may not justify the income. But to be fair in my experience Lexus doesn't really like to service cars at all... ever. When I came for seat warranty claim, they jumped on it and had field day... but when it comes just to regular service seems like it is not their key income source and they kind of deal with it more as liability.

Yes - it was discontinued at the same time as "Relax Warranty" was introduced (very quietly), I was still able to book the car on "Essential Care" in December 2021 even thought they no longer had it as an option on their website, but I just tried to do the same last month and was told it is definitely no longer offered, although they were happy to apply 20% discount if I were to go ahead with the service. I guess that makes sense, as now "Relax" offers level of protection which is unmatched in the industry, so providing it with discounted servicing would not make sense. I guess they could have added "Relax" only to normal servicing and not "Essential Care", but probably they didn't want to advertise "Essential Care"/make it look like you paying for "Relax Warranty" as the point of marketing is that you getting it for "free". So if you can get cheaper servicing without it, then one may deduct that "Relax" isn't actually free. Obvious problem is just that now it no longer makes sense to service cars that are no longer eligible for "Relax" with Lexus, because Lexus servicing are now priced in line with it being combined service+warranty, yet on older/higher mile cars you only get half of the value. Now I wish they have kept "Essential Care" for cars over 10 years instead of 5 years, but that is moot point - they didn't.

Before I begin - I just wanted to say I do appreciated your formatted and structured response and that is nice, much better than "because you don't own it you suck" attitude. The question was specifically - "why Lexus ES did not catch on in UK", OP suggested that maybe pricing it lower has made the car look as inferior in public eye, I don't believe it is the price, but what is very clear is that we are talking about UK. What is happening in US, for the sake of this discussion may as well be another planet with different laws of physics. Different preferences, brand perception, pricing, fuel prices, roads... everything is different about US. The Lexus NX is considered small SUV there, over here it is considered "Large Luxury" SUV and we not even scratching surface here, the reasons why certain cars sells in US and does not sell here cannot be more different. Just a quick glance BMW 5-Series costs £47,000 in US and Lexus ES costs £33,000, that is 28% cheaper in well established market (and that is AWD model, although it is as well compared to 530i). So if we apply same logic in UK, then ES should start at ~£36,800, but that is kind of futile exercise because I don't believe it is the price that matters here. Is ES worse than 5-Series ONLY because it is FWD vs. RWD? No and I never said that. RWD in European luxury saloon market is what gives the car certain status, maybe it is cultural thing, maybe it is because Europeans expects their large saloons to "handle", yet the same is not necessary true in US... there are many reasons. I just state historic precedence of all luxury saloons being either RWD or AWD, and all brands that tried to get into that sector with FWD cars failing. But that is just one of many reasons... Yes US is established market for ES specifically where the model was offered since 1990. So yes ES there will have "easier ride" and it is enough just to do facelift/cosmetic update to stay competitive. UK/Europe is new market and it is much harder to enter, marketing has to be right etc. and this is where I think Lexus messed-up, positioned themselves wrong, marketed it wrong, against wrong competitors and expected to Europeans automatically accept it as equal. BMW spent 40+ years developing this segment, obviously any new brands will struggle. Lexus even failed with GS which was in all ways superior product to ES, how the ES suppose to achieve anything?! Now if you have done the research then this would have prevented this embarrassing moment... You see - yes ES in US has AWD. And even myself I would not mind ~10 years old ES 350 AWD. Although current 350 seems to be only FWD and one has get 250 for AWD... little bit weird decision considering AWD would be more beneficial for 350... but that is Lexus for ya! So you right - laws of physics works the same there, except ES offers both FWD and AWD in US and that makes a different. Besides they didn't even offered hybrid at all until 2017, so majority of ES sales in US are driven by ES350/250, even to this day. When you say Lexus ES sells "many units" you wrongly assume it is same ES300h as in UK that does... NO! It is model as a whole and ES300h sales are quite weak worldwide. Is BMW priced like-for-like is more Luxurious than Lexus ES... No and I have not said that either - I would argue that 5-Series is more Luxurious than ES... period. They are not in the same segment at all and that is what Lexus failed to understand - just making car of the same size and putting "luxury" badge on it doesn't make it equal to 5-Series... it is more subtle. First of all, you can't price them like for like because BMW is much more expensive, but it is as well fundamentally more Luxurious, and I mean it literally down to the platform it is built on and design choices that badge change cannot achieve. So the comparison here is really - is BMW 5-Series more luxurious than Toyota Avalon... answer to which is - obviously it is more luxurious. Toyota Avalon is more mass market economy saloon, BMW is luxury saloon, you paying premium to get BMW, but Toyota is probably better value... so ES is better value, but it is not competitor to 5-Series, it is different class car in different market niche. Simply said - you get lower class car for less money. And yes sorry... I am basically saying ES just cheapens Lexus brand... For Toyota that is fine - they can market Avalon/Camry as competitor to Mazda 6 or to VW Arteon without cheapening themselves. Lexus does cheapen itself when they go after BMW, get's bounced and has to admit they really sitting at "losers" table with Mazda and VW after failing to challenge "the boss". The way to establish yourself in this very competitive and traditional market brand has to offer "better for more", not "less for cheaper", such proposal does not attract buyers looking for Luxury, it works in economy cars market, but not in Luxury cars market. And am sure this is where OP was coming from - "perhaps if ES would be priced higher it would be better"... yes, but ONLY if they actually offer substantially more and better and Toyota Avalon does not offer neither more, nor better, not even with Lexus badge and 10 extra kg of sound deadening on it. And I know it all sounds really "anti-Lexus", but it is not. Problem is that people arguing this case wrong and make wrong comparisons. ES represents nicer and more luxurious Toyota Avalon, not a competitor for 5-Series... So it makes sense in US for somebody who says "I kind of want Toyota Avalon, sort of reliable mile muncher, without much sportiness, but large enough to sit 4 people comfortably, but I am kind off more upper class, so I want it to be little nicer, little bit more premium... ohh I know I will get Lexus ES then". So ES does not exist as it's own product, it is more of a top trim option for Toyota Avalon/Camry and it is only possible in US, because Toyota has such a large market there. When they sell million Avalon/Camry, then it is not a stretch so sell 40,000 in a top trim level known as Lexus ES. But as stand alone model in UK the ES doesn't really makes sense... unless it is very cheap to the point it is no brainer, but it isn't. And if it would be, then again it would compete with cheaper cars at lower segment and not BMW 5-Series. Basically, you (and some other ES owners) are making case for following argument - "why buy 5-Series if Ford Mondeo would do?!". And this is decades old argument and there were times when few dozen models have tried to make this case. This is not choice between two competitors in luxury saloon segment, it is choice between paying extra for luxury saloon or saving money and getting economy saloon. And this is fine argument, I have no issue with it, just don't fool yourself that you got BMW competitor because it has Lexus badge on it. "Lexus used to be good now bad, so that is why it is worse than BMW" - I don't think I am saying that, this would be wrong attribution. I said they used to make cars I like, and they still making them, but they are not selling them in UK. As well there is whole different discussion about rebadging and that is definitely getting worse - ES, CT, UX and to top it all off LBX is not great trend, but Lexus still makes some good cars just does not sell them here. I guess in very narrow sense it could be argued that specifically in ES case it is true, but just because it replaced GS, which was superior design, but I am not even making that argument right now. I consider that this was marketing mistake to call it GS replacement, rather than bad engineering decision. Cannot comment on your specific experience... I know BMW had introduced electric steering at some point and that may have something to do with it, but still I would take RWD BMW any day over anything FWD. Steering feel is just one of many things that matters in handling. Same thing here, steering feel is just tiny part of what makes car handle, Mazda 6 still going understeer on the limit, besides sounds like reinventing the wheel. We all know what works, we all know that RWD provides certain preferable handling characteristics, so why overcomplicate it by trying to overengineer wrong wheel drive to feel a little bit like RWD? Just put the shaft going to rear wheel - sorted! Confident steering is not the same as good handling... As well confident steering at what? 30MPH in traffic? And I mean - that is fine, not everyone will be trashing their large saloons on the twisty roads, but some might. So you basically arbitrarily lowering threshold based on your personal needs - but there are people who want more from their cars. Perhaps that is why German cars still have appeal for some buyers? Yes indeed - but it is kind of different thing. BMW does not sell rebadge Hyundai, sure they don't make new BMW as they used to make them, now there are plastic parts inside of engine that fail after 60-80k miles. And that is bad, but they making cheaper BMWs, not badging cheaper cars as BMWs. So to have like for like comparison - IS mk3 was noticeably cheaper built than previous IS mk2, this is sort of thing we are talking about, but IS mk3 was not suddenly Toyota Avensis badged as Lexus, it was still a Lexus. Lexus GS was a Lexus, it's replacement is Toyota. That is different. Finally, we end-up with some century old grievances which has no relevance and conspiracy theories... This is not battle for Britain (and if it would then ze-Germans would have won it)! Let's just face it - British car industry is non-existent, British own doing! Now every car company (many of whom were pioneers in many ways and historically significant) are now owned by anyone, but not British... and it is kind of sad. But does that make BMW 5-Series worse car, or motoring press inherently dishonest?! No - I don't think so. For me it seems the German makers just understands the market better, offers more competitive and more appealing products, sets and maintains trends (for decades) and therefore achieves better sales results in certain segments. Sport and Luxury saloons/coupes is one of those segments where they dominate. Lexus and many other makers tried times and times again to get into these segments, failed and moved on... Lexus moved onto SUVs where they are doing much more favourably... but it is not Germans fault that Lexus can't offer competitive and appealing saloon... it is Lexus own fault.

And somebody said I was wrong to suggest it will be £110k... indeed I was - it is £112k. Alphard actually...

Okey then... ... Please point to a single "ridiculous" comparison... As well... you kind are offering your opinions... As well... I will decide what I will do and when and I don't need to be told by you or anyone else when I what I have to do... so thank you not. As well if you wondering why I am I still here - there was a time when Lexus made great cars which I really enjoyed... they are still making some, just not selling them in UK. In last 11 years I had 8 Lexus cars and as of right now I own 3...

Been trough this before - your way of argument is defined by informal fallacy known as "false authority" or if we want to be very fancy then argumentum ad verecundiam. Owning something doesn't give you some unique right, knowledge or authority. And if you follow the same logic then you simply can't compared ES to anything you have not owned, thus leaving you unable to speak about anything else. Have you owned Lada Niva or Perodua Ativa? No? What if I have and I say they are better than ES, does that make me right? We would be in deadlock until we can find one guy who has owned both and can mediate... That is why there is objective way of comparing cars by specific metrics, rather than biased opinion of one owner. And that is why motoring journalism can exist, despite none of them owning any of the cars they review, but according to you they automatically don't know what they are talking about! Right? No owning the car no knowledge?! Likewise there cannot ever be anything negative said about something somebody doesn't own, even if they have done the research, drove it, compared it and cautiously decided it is bad value/offer/car. By your logic, they just cannot know it, because they don't own it... are you saying that if anyone would buy ES300h despite being confident it is not car for them they would suddenly become "converts" and say - "stupid me, I didn't realise how amazing this cars is"... your line of argument simply doesn't make sense... that is all. I had exactly the same argument about Lexus 8FARTS engine, remember very well people telling me that because I have not owned IS200t it means I cannot have valuable opinion about it and I am just "jealous", because "it would leave IS250 in dust". Fast forward I bought RC200t, which is basically coupe version of IS200t and to my horror I was precisely 100% correct about each and every detail, just based on having been in one for a day as courtesy car. Same for "slagging" of Lexus products, been there and did that... this is not religious cult with one and only unquestionable truth... There are good products and there are bad products, Lexus makes some amazing cars and they make some not so amazing cars... I am not brand ambassador, paid influencer or marketing executive. I do not gain anything from "slagging", nor from praising Lexus products, so I am free to say what I think is right. Sometimes that is just opinion, sometimes it is fact, based on research, reviews, personal inspection and comparison. So get over it - your opinion is no more valuable than mine because you own something. You owning the car only makes you better in answering the questions when somebody comes and ask something very specific only the long term owner would know e.g. "I found this button, but cannot figure out what it does" or "when on full lock and only in cold morning I get this funny sound what could it be"... and in that case, as an owner of the car, you would be best placed to answer it. Or owners manual...

Sorry - have I missed something here... I thought are talking about UK/Europe.. no? I am sure it is different in US, in US they as well have well established line-up, they had ES there from the launch, they have engine choices, they are more competitive on price, German cars are more expensive in US... there is is whole list of reason why Lexus sales in US are different from UK/Europe. Auto journalists may have biases, but the fact that you disagree with them is not necessary the proof of that. As well BMW rattling after 3 month ownership is either singular cars from thousands or myth... There is no denying Lexus being undisputed reliability #1 is more reliable than BMW, but your perception on BMW "unreliability" is exaggerated. Just look at recent surveys... in every single category BMW has models in top 5 and even when they are at the bottom of top 20, the reliability is still like 80% of the cars for up-to 5 years old. Meaning that 80% of BMW cars had NONE, not a single fault, not even most minor one. Sure 20% of them had faults compared to maybe 1-8% Lexus cars, but it does not mean it was major fault, nor it proves your argument that basically "every single BMW rattles after 3 months" - it is just not true. If you say outside of warranty they are disaster waiting to happen - I agree! But we already discussed why that is irrelevant. https://www.whatcar.com/news/2022-what-car-reliability-survey/n23397 Note as well that in Luxury cars BMW is #2 and Lexus is nowhere to be found... Why? Because they simply were unable to sell enough cars to even be on the list. I am sure GS/ES would be #1, but they are so niche that survey could not find results...

There are quite a few Lexus dealerships run by different groups in Yorkshire and I am sure somebody local could advise on their experience there. Second point - don't be afraid to name and shame. In my experience Lexus dealerships are not exceptional... sales staff is much better in comparison in general (although my personal experience says otherwise), but after sales is hit and miss at best. Few examples: When I bought my RC (which was 2 years old at the time), they failed to do pre-sale inspection, didn't come to pick me up from the station on day of pick-up, didn't really prepare the car properly and after 3000 miles it turned out car had no brakes left (pads were metal on metal, diagnosed by different Lexus dealer). This is Lexus Reading... on semi-positive side when threatened with miss-sell lawsuit, they replaced all brakes with all brand new parts at no cost. Servicing car with them was just about fine, nothing wrong, but as well nothing exceptional. More local to me Lexus Woodford always forgotten something, either they forget to book courtesy car, or they forget to say "local taxi service" is provided at my own expense, or they forget to wash the car, or they forget that I have asked them not to wash it... Once Lexus GB called me and offered "special invitation to special event" and Lexus Woodford didn't have a clue about it, so when I came they were like "how can we help you... no we don't even have this car in stock and we don't have that care available for sale". Now comparing that to my local Volvo and BMW, Lexus are still better - BMW could not offer me the test drive in 530e and "perhaps were able to offer me to try 520d", similar story with Volvo S90 - T8 not available, they told me they will call me back on availability... never heard from them since. But needless today Lexus is not what it once was... no champagne parties to customers, no gifts when buying the car, seems to be completely not interested in servicing the cars, seems to be not interested in selling used cars... seems to be only interested to sell new cars on lease. The only reason I used their service was that it used to be genuinely good value for money (Lexus "Essential Care" for car over 5 years old), but they no longer do that. So now the only reason to use them is Lexus "Relax Warranty" if your car is less than 10 years/ 100k miles. Again - my experience Lexus is still better than most brands, but really not exceptional and in my experience not even satisfactory.

Not sure what are your criteria, but ES is worse in any objective way and it isn't even my opinion. BMW 5-Series interior is better quality, no contest... I guess depending on the options - if you get the cheapest so called Dakota Leather or worse Sensatec vinyl (not sure you can in 5-Series) and you comparing it with Semi-Aniline leather in ES Takumi then you comparing apples and oranges. Yes sure Semi-Aniline leather is nicer, but as well Takumi starts at £56,000, so choose BMW with at least Nappa leather and then make comparisons... But that does not end here and BMW can offer Merino leather as well, whereas Nappa is slightly worse than Lexus equivalent the Merino is definitely nicer. The plastics in BMW is far superior, overall more sturdy and premium, no cheap plastic inserts, no scratchy door bins and button surrounds. Last time I checked BMW 530e is as well plug-in hybrid, lower tax, ULEZ and congestion charge exempt and has 0-60 in 5.1s ,as well it is RWD and rather fun to drive if you wanted to?! For me comparison ends here, but I appreciate not everyone cares... although it seems quite a few more people care than ES owners would like to admit. Remember we are trying to explain here not "why you love your car", but "why market does not care about it". And we haven't even scratched surface on infotainment, possible configuration options etc. Actually, quite opposite. Opinion of someone who owns ES is only useful when explaining why ES is good (i.e. positives), however it is biased when making objective comparisons or explaining why model has failed. That I don't own either ES, nor competitor allows me to more objective and less biased. In short I have no stake in it so I don't care who wins and who loses - that is objectivity for you. I get it - you like your ES, otherwise you would have bought something else, but that pretty much automatically eliminates you as "impartial" person. Besides - I have driven last gen 5-Series extensively (2017–2023) and when it comes to last gen E-Class (2016-2023) I pretty much feel like I have owned one... every time I rent the car that is what I get, I have probably 20k miles on it. So this "actual experience and ownership" is non-sense. I have been into enough cars in my life to get into Lexus ES and right away say "this is Toyota Avalon with Lexus badge". And by the way I drove both 2021 Toyota Camry and 2022 Toyota Avalon (in few of those rare times when I didn't get E-Class), so I have good perspective on "rebadged Avalon" as well. If owning the car would be in any way relevant for having opinion, or reviewing one, then auto-journalism would not exist at all.

On first one that is just a myth - I would like to say it has been debunked, but sadly it wasn't. It is such a niche subject that it seems nobody is bothered to study it, so this stereotype remains. It seems to me that people who don't like BMW drivers are either jealous or stuck in the overtaking lane long after they should have moved over. Or perhaps BMWs are just more noticeable compared to grey Vauxhall Insignia or some other boring car stuck on your rear bumper. I have done quite a bit of driving and I have not found any brand that consistently attracts poor drivers. I am sure that there are idiots in all cars, BMW included, but I would not say that BMWs are consistently what causes me issues. I have identified one trend - usually people who drive "bad cars" are as well "bad drivers", French cars are good start, but again it is not a brand issue, the issue is that anyone who likes driving and who likes cars are unlikely to choose French car (with very few exceptions) and if somebody has chosen French car, then they likely did it because they are cheap and because they don't care, because they do not like driving and they do not care what they drive. As certain Jeremy Clarkson remarked - "would you like to be operated by surgeon who is not interested in medicine and does not care... probably not (or something along those lines)". And I think he is onto something - person who is not interested in driving and doesn't likes doing it is unlikely to be good driver. And people in French cars are not malicious, just a little bit clueless sometimes, not concentrating, not indicating, not moving over, generally being in the wrong place and at the wrong time... which I find not acceptable for the road, but nothing personal. On the second subject - that is just rational, it is not lack of critical thinking or frugality, if once leases the car for 3 years, then they don't care what will happen to it after 5. And if we look statistically, then something like 3/4 of new car sales are some form of finance (even more for luxury cars), even remaining 1/4 buyers who buy cars outright not necessarily keep them longer than 5 years. So the customer who buys brand new car and keeps it for 10-years/100,000miles is exceptionally rare. I would assume older folk who maybe get their pension lump sum after retiring would be the only group that does it. As such why would you overpay, or sacrifice something for the car that is overengineered to last much longer than you need it. Why would new car owner overpay for the car just so that third or fifth owner 15 years down the line would benefit from it? Now I am grateful that there are some people like that, because I primarily buy used cars (just because I am more frugal than it would be generally heathy to be), but that is not common and it is becoming increasingly rare.

If you would try to answer the question of why people not buying it, then you would realise that majority of buyers does not care about plastic guides (and much more critical engine parts!), what they care more is about interior quality, because that is what they can see, touch and feel. BMW will still come with 5-years/60k miles warranty and majority of them will survive that much. Now if you argue - "but after 5 years you have major engine problem, so mechanical reliability is more important than cosmetic thing in interior", then you would be RIGHT... yet it is still irrelevant. Because original owner who bought the car new and who is the only person BMW cares about will have driven the car, enjoyed the cars, sold the car and long forgotten about it. So two things here - used car market is irrelevant, used car reliability is irrelevant for manufacturers, they make the cars that lasts they lease and that satisfies 99% of owners. That is why BWM 5-Series is and will be market leader in this segment for foreseeable future. I do not understand your argument about being "not RWD and not German"... sound like a principle for me and those are retally rational "I don't want German cars and if German cars are RWD, then I will make sure to not have RWD", well okey - more power to you, but market thinks differently. The end result ES is sales failure as I have always predicted it to be and BMW still sells more BMW 5s than Lexus sells cars altogether.

Sorry to enter your party... but isn't it strange that only ES owners thinks it is good value? And this is not wrong in the ES owners perspective - simply said you had certain criteria for the car, certain things which were important for you and ES matched that well and it works very well, hence you bought it. So you just can't understand or appreciate why other people don't like it, because it seems to work well for you. Yet if you want to answer the question why it failed in the market you need to look from the perspective of why it does NOT work for other people. The perspective on the market is different - at this level people want more power, RWD, actually more luxurious cars, some other options Lexus does not offer... ES is literally copy paste Avalon, I drove both and they feel like same car, Avalon is great, but it is not E-Class and not 5-Series and not GS. To anyone comparing it to BMW or MB or even upgrading from GS it just doesn't make sense. Too cheap?! Definitely not! Too expensive - to be honest it isn't either... Problem is brand image and massive marketing gaffe saying "it is BMW 5-Series" competitor and every single review has absolutely demolished it, to be fair you don't even need review, just sit in 5-Series and ES and it is obvious right away - it stands no chance against BMW 5-Series. They thought they could put Lexus badge on Avalon and say it is BMW 5-Series competitor - market looked at it and said "sorry... nope". So Lexus picked wrong battles, wrong marketing and lost. Lexus as a brand represent affordable premium car and slots just below BMW/MB (I know shocker, people do not know better, but that is what it is)... they should have built niche for ES separate from 5-Series, perhaps go after VW Arteon buyers (not that Arteon is massive sales success) and market it as it's own thing. Which to be honest either way I look at it would be losing battle - saloons are on decline anyway, so anyone buying one will be looking for classic premium saloon values e.g. quintessential BMW 5-Series copy, the thing GS tried to be and failed (although for different reasons). Second point - power and FWD. I know this was discussed million times and probably will be discussed million more times. Some say - it does not matter, but market consistently said otherwise. Lexus is not the first brand that tried and failed with FWD model in premium saloon space. Jaguar X-type was failure, in my opinion predominately because it was Mondeo FWD platform, Alfa Romeo tried and failed for decades, all French large saloons failed, Honda/Acura failed. Simply said for exec. saloon segment RWD is must, that is what differentiates the leaders and wannabees. I know Audi is exception to this rule, but that is because of their Quattro line and they were always that sort of AWD option and just sneak FWD cars on the perception of them being more premium than they are. Then we come to power - and obviously Lexus pulled their classical single engine option here. I know it sound counter-intuitive, because if we look at the stats majority of BMW and MBs will be E220d, 520i and so on... but that is not the point. Point is that they offer the option, that attracts the customer, that giver right brand perception, but then customers decides that it makes more financial sense to go with 520i... but make no mistake - they only came to BMW dealership in the first place because BMW offers 540i and M5, and they 100% gone for 520i M-Sport with badge delete, so now all their neighbours thinks they driving "fast BMW". And by the way 520i still performs despite it's 184HP and small engine. Lexus has fallen on the same issue over and over again - they think that by just offering the model which ultimately will sell most units they will sell the same amount of cars without the need of homologating 20 engines... NO! They have to offer all engines from 1.8L hybrid to 5L V8 and then let customers make that decision. Strangely enough I think new IS would have done quite well in the market, maybe even helped ES along. If they came here with their American line-up and marketing - IS300 (220t), 300h, 350 and 500 and for 10% less than BMW, it probably would have worked. So we talking about IS300 and 300h starting at ~£35,000. The point is - you have to have models that brings the customers to the dealership, what they ultimately buy does not matter, but they are required to build brand perception. Yes Lexus have some of them - LC and LS are those models, but they fail because LS and LC are out of reach for majority of buyers. Same story with LFA, so called "halo" cars, the success of "halo" car is based on it being both very desirable, but as well realistically affordable. Other brands have decades of building this and Lexus just consistently failed at that... BMW M-Series is perfect example, not everyone can afford M5, but it is not ridiculously expensive where people wouldn't even try and sure they can't get the latest one, but they can get previous model or one before. That bring their interest to the brand as a whole and that is how they end-up with BMW 520i, because they realise that instead of buying 15 years old M5, they can get brand new 520i on monthly payments.