Linas.P

That is simply not true, as I mentioned many times LSS+ coming standard to all models from 2018 is one of the best safety systems in the market. Full speed radar cruise control, with full braking and acceleration, lane departure with steering assist, blind spot and rear cross traffic alerts. It is not self-driving - but all safety systems you may need until cars become actually autonomous and can drive themselves. Lexus F-sport dashboard is my favourite on the market although I don't feel Lexus uses full potential on the screen e.g. why can't we have small navigation screen as an alternative to context menu? The only truly missing feature is Android Auto/Apple Car play - but face-lift models in 2020 already has this, so let's say Lexus was late to introduce it but they did it. I even realised that my car has wi-fi hot spot (I wasn't aware of that!). The only thing I agree with - the centre console on Lexus looks very conservative (some may call it dated). I don't mind the looks, but I would prefer more premium materials (e.g. aluminium buttons and toggles). As well temp adjustment with touch-bar is not ideal but I got used to it. I personally liked current E-Class controls - the part highlighted in red are machined aluminium toggle switches - very nice and intuitive to use: the black plastic buttons below are quite nasty, but they are for features which are less commonly used, so less of an issue. If you think that Lexus technology is outdated then we need to be specific about it - what exactly you think is missing?! I can start - 360 degree camera, this is not even available as an option (only NX has it for some weird reason).

Well, then you haven't experience "the horror".... No they are not, even manufacturers are different - one is Panasonic and other one is Pioneer. Yes indeed placement and quality of speakers is more important than the number or the power of them. I have never seen the power number quoted for neither Pioneer, nor Panasonic. Just my guess, but Pioneer system will be ~400-500W, some sources in US claims 475W, whereas Panasonic is ~240-300W. This would be in line with IS mk2 having 375W AMP. It is bit difficult to put numbers, because the only source I can find are Lexus.us posts. Actually, I am not even sure if poverty line stereo has dedicated AMP - it may be just standard 4x40 (or 4x50) coming out of the head unit and somehow bridged between 6 speakers. ML as it is well know is 835W dedicated AMP with 10+1 channels. Panasonic system actually has 6 speakers, Pioneer has 8 (not 10) and ML has 12 (not 17). This is because both Pioneer and ML uses some Coaxial speakers and they double count them as "components", which is kind of misleading.

I would rather say - it is good there brands like Lexus which don't just jump into stupid fashion trends without considering end user experience. The physical button vs. touchscreen discussion is not about being old fashioned or brand loyalty - it is about factual user experience and ergonomics. Sure enough, all work was done by warranty so you haven't spend much of your money on it. I imagine owing it as say ~4years old car outside of warranty. As well consider that your ownership is currently subsidised by government - this is not going to last forever. The only issue they don't have wide screen TV instead of centre console I guess... This is apples and oranges comparison. Lexus is just luxury subsidiary of Toyota, Tesla is the entire company on it's own - actually they are not even really competitors, which exception of few Toyota/Lexus EVs.

if it is far further, then I guess it is no longer "an immediate danger". Anyhow, having car speakers so loud so that you cannot hear the horn from even 10-30 metres is very unlikely (it is possible, but unlikely) ~400w speakers definitely does not come even close to that. Add to that - most of dB in car stereo will come from subwoofer, which will be fitted in the boot. So same applies here - it may be 102dB measured @1m in the boot itself, but in the cabin it will be nowhere near that. As well, could you confirm you had 6 speakers audio in your RC e.g. system with rotating knob or did you have sat-nav?

Yes this was unusually cheap audio for Lexus. The old IS came standard with very nice 13-Speakers system and ML only added 1 more speaker (front-centre). Obviously, Lexus realised that at this point nobody going to upgrade to ML (frankly there was no need), so when they released IS mk3 they made sure to aggressively tier it: Standard go 6 speakers (terrible quality, like you would find in rental Transit van) Premium got 10 speakers (which was decent) ML got 15 speakers ( RC got 17 - to be honest sound isn't substantially better to justify the cost, but the are good for car speakers). Good news that with FL model Lexus has dropped the awful 6-speakers system for all models except of UX and CT. As well CT has parcel shelf /boot cover - so access is quite good, but holes would obviousness the cover. I would suggest getting separate cover from breakers for this job ( in case anything goes wrong).

As I said - it is not about how loud they are, but more about how inappropriately cheap they are. They are literally painful to listen at any volume in my opinion. ~400w sound system is about average what you get in the car nowadays (your RX has similar RMS power from those 11 speakers), so it is nothing inappropriate about it. And again, I am not suggesting to play it at full volume all the time - yet they still provide much better quality sound even at 25 or 50%, although it is completely up-to whomever listens to the music to decide how loud they do it. Finally, I am not even going to go into details why you wrong about hearing car horn - simplified version of it... how loud is noise is defined by Decibels, not Watts. Even 2000w car stereo going to max out at ~90-100dB, whereas car horn is 107-109dB, meaning you will hear it even if you have new LS with 23 speaker 2400w ML system.

The standard system in Lexus is only good to listen to radio and nothing else - it isn't like speakers are not loud enough, but sound reproduction is simply terrible. Anything over half of volume becomes very "thin" and feels like speakers are about to rip themselves apart. This particularly big issue when considering "modern" music which has a lot of low frequencies. Listening to any music in the car necessitates few decent wide-frequency speakers and dedicated sub-woofer to make it bearable. Having 2x100w coaxial + say 200w sub is fairly basic set-up, but provides decent stand-alone experience. The exiting 6 speakers are no longer needed at this point, but can stay around without interfering much. @NemesisUK - did you have the most basic system with knob and without any sat-nav, or did you have sat-nav? That seems to me like completely unrelated topic, so I don't go deep into it. Yes it is legal and if you don't do anything stupid on the road, then hopefully nobody going to need to beep at you in the first place. Is it distraction - yes (like many things), does it impact the way we drive - yes it does... so does many other things (like kids in the car). Let's not become PC here and stop people from listening music in cars, or having their kids inside 😁

Yes in CT/IS/RC/UX/NX the standard poverty line system is actually quite atrocious. I remember getting used to standard 13 speaker system in my IS250 and then going to do 24hour test-drive in brand new RC300h which had standard system and being shocked. They have 6 Speaker system which is terrible, £9000 Ford Fiesta has much better standard audio system (actually comes with decent Sony 10 speakers system). At very least what you need is to buy "premium navigation" which then comes with fairly decent 10 speaker system. @para999 - retrofitting ML in CT is neither worth it nor (realistically) possible. Easiest way is to get the car with ML (hence I waited for so long until I found RC with ML) in the first place. If you really that concerned about the sound quality, then your best move would be to add pair of coaxial (2x100w) and matching stereo amp in the back and active sub-woofer in the boot (like in good old times). This would simply complement existing system, but if you fit anything more powerful then it will necessitate upgrading rest of the speakers in the car.

@Thackeray - excellent post, good examples as well, I suggest for any "Tesla fans wanabees" to do proper test drive. I have extended one in P100D and quick spin in Model 3 as well. I would agree that when you sit in the car for first time on the dealership floor the screen is quite impressive. I am not going to repeat myself about many things which are actually very disappointing, but the screen is not one of them. It is genuinely impressive. But then try to drive it and go through the set steps... if my memory serves I tried to connect to my phone (which you should not do when driving!), set destination, change destination and set temperature on climate control. I was unable to do any of these steps when driving. I have completed most when stopped by the traffic lights, but I have to stop separately on the side of the road to connect my phone (to be fair Lexus needs this as well). In short no matter how impressive the display looks in stationary car, is is fairly awkward to use when driving.

I still believe that depending on the complexity of the topic it may need more words and explanation. This means that very complex topic my need entire 600 page research paper to cover. Now I appreciate that nobody have time to read 1 page, never mind 600.... and as some of you have rightly highlighted - I sometimes deviate from topic at hand. However, in this particular thread I feel I was fairly clear - first post was rather long because it had to cover many topics, the purchase experience, the condition of the car, what I actually got and most complex of all - how did I decide to buy the car with the engine which I have criticised so much. The rest of the responses I think were pretty specific and on topic. That said I am surprised when people ask me the question which was answered literally in post above 😁 Actually, I probably need to do follow-up "long term" ownership update. Although in a year I just recently covered my 3000th mile in the car...

vs. Have you even looked at my post? or is it TLDR? if so just say it... Yes I like the looks and many other things about the car, yes I hate the engine because it is c*** engine and should have never been put in any car. So yes engine is bad, the car is mostly good.

Yes indeed IS250 is not meant for towing - it literally says in Owners manual that it can't. The only useful purpose I can see is to fit bicycles rack and connect duplicator signals to the socket. I kind of wanted it on mine when I had it for this reason, but after checking costs I decided no to do it - fitting towbar + electrical system was ~£1000-1500. If it is semi reasonable tow-bar, it should have some way to remove it without much pain. Hopefully it is not welded to sub-frame or something.

I do not hate EVs, this is completely not true - I just can't have one like majority of British people, especially in the cities. That is reality. If I could charge car at home and if I could have 2 cars (one ICE/hybrid/PHEV and one EV) I would have it, but reality is I have strictly one parking place and no charging facilities - end of story. And even then I am lucky, because there are 30 parking paces for 100 flats - so 70 households don't even have space to park, never mind charging. There are 6 charging points outside for ~1000 flats and all of them are broken. I said - car at very least have to be reliable, if that is not the case then rest does not matter, BUT I never said Lexus is just reliable- it has best built quality and mostly best materials as well, it is luxurious, it is comfortable, I like the design inside and outside as well. Nissans are not generally known for their reliability, but if you say Honda (say £500 civic) then I would agree, that they are just as reliable as Lexus for less. However, even if Honda can match Lexus reliability, they can't mace all the other things. As well, Lexus cars are generally well equipped and are very far away from being outdated. Lexus LSS+ is one of the most comprehensive safety system in the market and it is standard equipment for all 2018+ cars. Further, for the purpose it is meant to be used it is just as good as Tesla's Autopilot. And what forward thinking technology does Tesla have? Refined lithium batteries?! - that is 2000's technology. Beta Autopilot - that is concept technology being developed and tested, so it is not there yet and will not be "proper" for long time. What else? Their silly massive screens which are more pain to use, then "outdated" Lexus infotainment? I don't see this as technologically advanced. Yes EVs are the future, but that is exactly the case - it is not today/now it is the future. BMW-1 is not German, it is British, built on the same line as new Mini. I agree it is horrendous car and I have few fired who can attest it. However, I had few 3-Series and 5-Series BMWs and I have a lot of friends with various models. They are not as reliable as Lexus, but generally speaking they are fairly reliable. There are overarching diesel problem, which affects any make. There are few known weak parts, but on average I would easily put BMW in top-10 most reliable cars. But I agree re: touchscreens - they are pain to use and for driver when driving the buttons are always better - fact!

It companies does data mining and they often have their IT business as "loss leader" but their advertising business as money maker. So not exactly comparable to Tesla. Further, Tesla eventually needs to start making money and government eventually going to stop subsidising EVs. The only thing which Tesla has going is their super-charger network. So my assumption - their cars will be "loss-leader", but their charging infrastructure will be money maker. The only question is whenever EV boom will come early enough to save Tesla. Re: European makes - I was under impression they 90 grams figure is for EU sales only, and same as for Toyota what happens worldwide should not affect them. Or this counts car specifically made in EU? Either way, they can still go PHEV for many smaller models... like BMW i8 and 330e have some stupid and unrealistic co2 figures 49 and 45 respectively. Whereas realistically, I think they are no better than say 300h which officially does 149.

And take the investor hype away and it would be bankrupt overnight. Everyone know that Tesla being priced more than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined is a joke... well actually it is definition of "financial bubble". As well you spot on on what Toyota is doing. No matter how important and relevant as this point in time EVs market is, it is still very small and Toyota know they cannot sell 11million EVs, they cannot even sell 1million EVs. But they can easily sell most of their current cars as hybrids of PHEVs. When the infrastructure for EVs going to catch-up then Toyota will scale-up their offering for it. There is no point for such giant as Toyota to compete in such a niche market. Same can be said about all other major manufacturers, everyone have 1 or 2 mediocre EVs option just to stay relevant for the future and every year they show off concept cars they planning to release once EVs becomes mainstream. That is enough. Them not release EVs is not because they can't, but because they plug the numbers in and it is clear there is no real demand and market yet to make EVs profitable on massive scale.

It would be nightmare by any standards... Just look at it - half car got broken in 2 years and 30k miles. Question - what will be left of it after 5years/60k miles? What the resale value would be. Even most unreliable car brands today are better - I know horror stories about new Range Rovers, but even then it is like 3-4 things going wrong in 3 years, not 15 in 2. I obviously appreciate that all this was likely covered by warranty, but who wants to get-up in the morning with plans to go somewhere and realise they cannot close drivers doors.... this is bleeping nightmare! @Spacewagon52 Here again I agree with your above post - key thing in the car is dependability. If car is not reasonably reliable then everything else pretty much does not matter. Throw self-driving, dry cleaning, espresso making into it - everything does not matter if in the morning I cannot be sure I will go, press start button and it will take me where I need to go. If you can have baseline dependability, then it is fine to start adding gizmos and then we can start comparing which car wins "top-trumps". But if car fails to start, then it is noting else than nice drive-way decoration. Yes all cars have faults, I just had one recently in my car which was as well solved by warranty. but 15 faults in 2 years - that is basically a fault every 6 weeks. And again it depends what fault it is - in my car it was electric seat motor struggling to work. It still worked, but was low and sometimes I would need to lift myself forward to be able to raise the back of the seat. So that is sort of fault you can live with, you can still use the car and it is still safe. And my car has 64k miles/4years - that is twice the age and mileage and I assume previous owner must have been obese as seat wear is above average.

I have seen your ownership experience on your Model X. I really liked you honest and detailed posts in that tread (UX300e I believe) and I was shocked how terrible is Tesla. I knew that Tesla is not reliable, I have seen it's terrible build quality and cheap materials first hand, but looking at that thread I realised that Teslas as are even worse to own than I could have ever imagined. Sprinkling some gimmicky beta tech does not solve fundamental issues with the car and if you looking for good value cars then Tesla is not one of them. I cannot see how you can justify recommending Tesla for anyone except of tech. reviewers and volunteer testers considering how atrociously unreliable your Tesla was. I am not saying it should be Lexus either - that is fair enough. But just looking back to your own posts I cannot see how could look past that. ____ Note: just for reference any of below faults in 1year/10k miles would make a brand no-go for me. Having 15 major faults in 2 years and 30k miles is literally a disaster - I would not want to touch such car with a stick even when wearing full HAZMAT:

You can start from reading this thread then. Most of this is already covered. As well, I never said I don't like the car, I just don't like the engine. It would be better with about any other engine including 250 from my old IS.

You can continue to ignore these facts, be Tesla fan and have your ear plugged, but in that case we cannot have any further discussion. I have already responded several times to you claims. Tesla "autopilot" is scam.... it is not autonomy and they not "pioneering" anything. It is very basic Level 2 system and the only way Tesla differs from other companies is that they allow real people to risk their safety and test their defective system on the roads. Please go back, see what I have said, if needed do you research and then we can discuss what Tesla "autopilot" is and what it isn't. If I am wrong somewhere I am fine with that, but you will have to use some fact to prove it. Showing beta software driving on empty road does not prove anything, car is still not ready to self drive on the roads, laws are not ready to allow it (for good reason) - end of story. For the purposes it could be used I don't see Tesla autopilot being any better than LSS+. Yes it would be cool if car can take me to work and go back to park itself at home, or take me home from the pub, but that is not near future and until then this functionality is just a gimmick.

Strange, because my opinion about the car has not changed even the smallest bit - hence the thread. I have gotten myself very good deal, car was fully loaded and in right colour inside and out. The saddest thing is that everything I said about 200t was absolutely true. In fact I slightly surprised myself as at some point I even thought - "surely it cannot be that bad". Ohhhh boy... it is exactly that bad if not worse. Fuel consumption is certainly worse than anyone could imagine. The reason why I ended-up getting 200t is well detailed in many of my posts (and as well I would have bought 300h if right colour, options, price would have been available). In summary, I thought I could not justify RC-F for daily driving, my IS250 was written-off by insurance and I always liked how RC looks. Only issue for me was the lack of engine options (350 would have been perfect) and at some point I simply decided that "I may be able to live with 200t/300h". In some sense it was necessity and not simply my choice, at that time this was the best option I could have. Now I know that was mistake and my plans are either upgrade to RC-F or LC when opportunity presents itself, or move to another brand as Lexus clearly does not have people like me in mind when they are putting together their range.

If we talking about EV game - yes I agree Lexus needs to step up their game. Although, I think they are playing long term here. You know my opinion about EV becoming mainstream, that is - I simply don't believe we will have infrastructure in UK for EVs to take even 10% of the market by 2030. My comment may not age well, but with current charging infrastructure and even energy production this is unlikely to happen. Yes you lucky to be one who has means to charge Teslas and who does sort of driving which is covered by 200-300 range, but sadly majority of people in UK are not like that. With this in mind I would say it would have been enough for Lexus to do PHEVs so that they could be purchased on company car schemes, opening big market for the brand. For whatever reason they decided that having single half-baked engine (300h) across the range was enough... and it clearly didn't work out. I certainly could not get RC300h on the company because it has 149g/km co2 and the maximum allowed now is 75. It is actually quite funny as our old company car scheme terms and condition had Lexus LS600h on the cover... Clearly at some point Lexus was considered future brand with it's hybrids, but they quickly lost initiative. If we talking about technology, yes Lexus is bit behind, but Tesla is behind on build quality, materials, reliability and other things which I find much more important for the car as form of transportation. The infotainment system is "nice to have" but by no means a feature which would make hugely impact my choice of the car.. as long as it is acceptable quality. Lexus infotainment in FL models is acceptable quality and if not for lack of apple car play and android auto I would even call it satisfactory.

Not to mention BMWs already have one of harder paints and clay mitts are already softer than clay bars. You can get clay bars as coarse, medium and fine (clay mitts coming just little finer than finest bars). Obviously, coarse clay bar is best to use on lower parts of the car where you get most brake dust and other contamination stuck in paint, but even when folding often the results may be similar to wet-sanding. It is real cringe to watch when some car channels does detailing adverts and before applying some cheap silicone wax they go through the steps they don't understand and get's car "clayed" before applying wax. As if that is a step for each wash. Indeed clay is very important, yet specific step when detailing the car. Getting the paint clean will influence how well the polish works on the car and how much trash you get into polishing pads. If I know that car was not detailed for long time, I would rather trash £10 clay bar, than 3 x £12 polishing pads and ton of paste. However, clay is not something to be used when just washing the car.

As already mentioned, it could be normal depending on humidity and temperature inside/outside. If steaming-up is excessive, then I would look at AC and whenever condensate can freely drain. Likewise I believe the AC drain pipe is on the passenger side - so check if passenger side carpet is damp - this could explain why passenger windows steams-up more.

Yes that was my question as well. If AC is fitted then it is best to leave it on. If it is on but you still get steamy windows, then it may indicate issue with AC. Could be as simple as stuck drain pipe for AC.

That is fine then, all Lexus cars, including brand new loaners does that. Few weeks ago I had CT with 900 miles on the clock and UX with 2700 miles and both did exactly the same thing. My RC does that, my old IS did it. It seems that once you let of the brake, the handbrake shoes takes that inch to fully engage.