Linas.P

I been in few dealerships lately and most of IS'es are either white or black, entry level cars with minimal options, black interiors. Feels like they had them just to hold the place in showroom. There must be few F-Sport floating around as those tends to be popular as well... But if you specifically wanted orange IS with cream interior and Takumi pack - too late!

Do I read what I post? - yes multiple times. How people will react is exactly they way they will react, I wish everyone could find my post entertaining, but that is not in my control - I think there is difference between me offending someone and somebody deciding that they will "take offence". Besides of that it may be language issue, English is not my first language - so things may be "lost in translation". Speaking face to face is never same as posting on the forum, there are many things which cannot be conveyed in writing. I agree that at times I could be intimidating (not condescending) even when talking face to face, partially because I always very serious and I would say "factual" (some say opinionated). If you interested look for how Jordan B Peterson speaks, I am nowhere near as good as him (not even remotely), but that would be the way I would try to communicate. It could be intimidating - I imagine people could feel that they need to be careful what they say to me and how. Do I jump on "people's throats"? - it may feel that way, it is the case in real life as well. I do expect people to be responsible and factual when they make claims - if they are not paying attention I may challenge them. I would say - if you have checked your facts there is nothing you need to worry about! 🙂 "The nuts thing" - I disagree that it was how I answered it, but hey it is just my opinion, so you may be right! I can assure you that was not my intention anyway and I would point out that many things I said that "I probably made a mistake, I was nuts myself to do it", but I did it for A, B, C and E reasons. Not sure how could you found that condescending, but I guess you did and you have your own reasons... P.S. you can always drop me personal message if you not sure what I meant and I am sure we can figure it out together... Roy - may be right about "the bonding" 😁

Surely, I have never said you (both) are nuts!? But I take it you are just joking here? What I said was that cars mentioned does not meet my criteria which I thought was very clear. If that helps I can summarise my criteria again, but I kind of deliberately avoided doing it, because again I actually never asked for advise ...and I am not being rude, I just did all the research, I have spent days looking at all the options, I even had scoring table for each car with decision being driven by £/point ratio. So I know options available for me and anyone trying to suggest anything would be genuinely wasting their time. Very large reason why I ended up with RC200t is specifically - "sticking with the budget and not biting more that I can chew", so I just don't understand what to make from such comment...

Yes - that is always the case, but not sure how it relates to this thread...

That is fair enough, but have you seen the prices of just brake disks and pads on say RC-F? or Tyres of that matter? As well the warranty for more expensive car will always be more, sometimes even disproportionately more - taking for example RC-F Lexus warranty not only going to assume breakdown will be more expensive to fix, but they expect it to have faults more often, because they expect you to track the car etc. So they will charge premium for it even if you end-up driving the car only on weekends like miss Daisy.. Finally, with Lexus we used to very good warranty conditions - it is not like that for other brands. Not to mention that most brand won't even warrant the cars over 6 years old and 60k miles. Lexus is really just an exception here. Try warranting say BMW M3 E92 - nobody would warranty it for any sensible money.

Are you suggesting I did?! 😅 Absolutely!

That is relative as well 😁

I would expect so... especially on RCs, I think it is too late for GS'es and when it comes to IS'es - there are plenty of them left, but they generally tend to be pretty basic spec. So the problem is that you will have to accept whatever remains in the country and that could be very lucky day or very sad one. Where you can get best deal are very late (2019) cars, "technically" used but maybe with under 10k miles... those will have bottom prices and may genuinely be "good deal". When it comes to truly brand new cars one needs to appreciate that no matter how good deal they get, they will have to swallow the highest possible depreciation on the car as "nobody" will want them as PX or to buy in next couple of years.

Yeah... sadly "The Beast" doesn't meet my criteria - mainly the one where I expect to drive it myself and "few" others... 😁

Because with that particular poster we had "long and rich discussion history", where I stated on multiple occasions that I have very specific criteria (which I made very clear) and I neither looking for advice nor his advise meets the clearly stated criteria. Not repeating all the details again, if I say car must be coupe and I get advised to get Lexus IS250 mk3 then I think it is safe to say, that somebody either missed the point or have ignored it. Finally, I pointed out several times that this thread is about my experience with RC200t, positives and negatives - that is all. It is not a plea for forum to advise me what should I get. Yes we can say that theoretically or objectively one car or the other would have been better fit for my needs, but it is off-topic... I am happy to participate and I do participate in this off-topic, but nevertheless it is just off-topic.

1. I absolutely agree that different opinions could co-exist and it is strange that you feel this way, because I always try to note that this is just my opinion, and that it does not mean I am right and you are wrong. If you feel that way then perhaps I failed to made it clear somehow, but I just spent over 30 minutes reading my own comments and I am really struggling to understand where you get this impression. Further, after comparing our comments I can see that we actually agree on most of the things... 2. I don't want to copy dyno sheets, because they are not comparable, but what you will generally see with IS250 is that torque comes in pretty early on (2500RPM) and stays flat all the way to 6000RPM. Whereas on any 200t you will see it is coming in little bit later and not only having multiple dips, but as well it has little bit curve maximising ~3750RPM and then dropping down again. All that said - what you need to consider that dyno pulls are generally done in single gear, whereas in real-life you will go through multiple gears when accelerating - short "effective" power-band and shorter gears will only amplify the "patchiness" of 200t torque. Further IS250 really likes to be "revved out" the more you push it the better it behaves, 200t is completely opposite - it reaches it's peak quickly and then gear needs to change as revving it high is pointless, there are no top-end power in the engine. Me claiming that 200t has less torque would be factually incorrect (260Nm vs 350Nm), what I said is that torque is instantly accessible in V6 and it makes it more useful. As well Torque on IS250 is directly correlated with your accelerator input and lineal (smooth), whereas on RC200t there seem to be no link - "car has mind of it's own". 3. 300h is even worse as it basically has 2 engines and there are two separate Torque/Power curves which overlaps, further CVT makes acceleration very efficient, but not very exciting. In summary, what I would say is probably very similar - my experience is based on my "pants feel" so you can consider this as just one of many perspective. However, some of what I have said is supported by dyno graphs as well e.g. that 200t has patchy torque curve, that 300h has noticeable a dip over between 1800-2500RPM and that 250 has very smooth and flat torque curve. In my personal experience I found 200t to be most capable 40-90MPH which I have already noted. Seems like gearing and engine torque works well if you floor it from 50+, however it is still not instant, car has to downshift like 4 gears, often gets it wrong and in UK 40-90 pull isn't even that practical.

Yes but you need to consider I replied 2 different people above. And I generally consider all the options before I post, so just summarise what I have considered.

That is why I would rather have £25k RC350, than £25k RC-F.

Have you actually tried it in manual mode? I know there are no gears, just set "ratios" and indeed it will change up/down if you fall below effective power-band for the engine - so no engine braking and no redlining. That said if you stay between ~2000-5000 RPM, the ratio change is "instant" both up and down, better than any dual-clutch. So if you know the limitations of gearbox and work around them, then it isn't that bad. Cutting between traffic - yes it does not work for that. But blasting on empty country road ... I personally didn't expect it, but I found it surprisingly good.

No I didn't... In fact I am not sure 40-60hp is realistic, 242hp for 2.0L is already "cooking hard", getting it to ~260 maybe realistic, but I don't believe that 300 is possible without aftermarket ECU and different turbo. What I know however is that gearbox can be "chiped" to remove ~1s initial hesitation from stand still and delay in kick-down. Making the car ~1s faster 0-60 and more responsive. But to be honest I cannot complain about the car acceleration - it is more about how it does it. I guess it would be right to say that I am simply allergic to patchy and unpredictable acceleration of small volume turbo engines. Power band is very short, there is initial delay and there are multiple dips when tiny turbo runs out of the boost and multiple gears changes. To somewhat fix it only chip'ing won't be enough, as I said I think it would need different turbo - perhaps even twin-turbo or twin-scroll set-up. So I could have two different power bands - keep one down-low ~under 3500RPM, and other one above 3500RPM - basically extending usable engine power band. But this is not like common 2-3L diesel engines which can be done in 2 minutes by simply loading new "map" for £150. This would be dedicated and involved work for the car which has shipped 103 units in UK. All in all this whole shebang would need to be properly engineered and would costs at least £3000-£4000. For such money I am better off engine swapping the beast, but I just feel car is not worth it. You again just missing the point, or ignoring it. No - there are no cars which would fit my requirements. I already said that it can't have 4 doors, it can't have 2 seats, can't be diesel or FWD, on top of that it is my sole car so it has to be "somewhat" practical and reliable. This means it cannot be Jaguar or Maserati... or old Porsche... or 120k miles BMW M3 E92. This reduces your list by ~90%. 10% of cars left may have better engine, but are otherwise worse cars overall e.g. BMW 435i, MB E400, BMW 640/650i. And yes indeed there are cars which could do both - but then they are not under £20k... more like £30-60k. My alternatives are basically these - RC-F, BMW 8-Series, new BMW 4-Series 440i, 2016+ MB E450+ and C43+. To my disappointment I even have to excluded LC500/500h and BMW i8 because they literally have no boot. And finally I am not just being "difficult" - I am simply not asking for advice. I already know what are my options and literally yesterday I looked to all cars which are sold between £10-20k in UK, all of them!

I need 4 seats... so that takes several options out - like Cayman. I would probably go for older 911 (996 or 997, sadly 993 are crazy expensive nowadays) - as that is not only good to drive but you can call it "investment car". But in the end of the day I could only own one car so it has to be compromise and I just cannot afford to commute in 911. As for changing it, this is just theoretical exercise - I know realistically there are no options, I just made assumption today that lets say I can sell it for £17k (unlikely to find buyer for 200t) and checked what alternatives exists - to be fair not very much. 435i is just too common and interior is too basic, as well for £17k it means older cars ~2013 and ~80k miles. In Lexus that is not an issue, but 80k miles BMW does not sound too good. BMW 6 - again 2012 cars, interior little bit nicer, bur technology is literally 2010. Yes it was best in 2010, but by 2016 even Lexus had better. So although they have better engines, that are still overall downgrades. And I would not be able to sell the car for private buyer for cash anyway. Dealers would offer more like £14k PX, and that means you as well have to PX with them - nobody just gives 14k cash. Finally, there isn't much where I can drive it nowadays and even when I can I could no say that I enjoy it. But it is "okey" commuter - at least I don't feel embarrassed driving it to work. Nobody knows it is 2.0t with massive fuel consumption 😁

@Thackeray - Yes that is a "theory" of what Lexus does and may have actually been truth a decade ago. Nowadays, I simply struggling to see relevance in their models as they cannot compete neither against their real competitors, nor even their "value sister brand" Toyota. Yes you are absolutely right about MB, it is not always the case for every model, but they always debut the new tech in S-Class and then it tricycles down the range. Now... both ways have their own advantages, but in summary I expect Lexus which costs 20% more to have more features then Toyota. Should they be carefully tested and extremely reliable - absolutely! But it cannot be the case that with RAV4 you get more power + better economy and newer sat-nav with Android auto+Apple car play and in £4k more expensive NX you get none of that (applies to ~2018 model). In such case what you paying extra for? Literally for just a badge? Going back all the way to Lexus IS mk2 what extra you getting was obvious... comparable car in Toyota range was Avensis... and for ~ £6k-£8k more you were getting substantial upgrade - more beautiful, RWD instead of FWD, interior built literally on different level, as standard - keyless entry, cooled and heated seat, electronically folding mirrors, more powerful engines... I mean list of extra features was like 60 items long. Not only that you were getting more, you could not even get those options on Toyota even if you pay more. Lexus IS mk2 in was a "real Lexus" in my opinion. I used to joke - "when you take Lexus owner manual you read about the features you have in your car, but when you take Toyota manual you read about the features you have missing in your car". That is no longer the case. Look at ES today - it is literally Avalon with different face - yes it apparently has more premium materials inside, but you can see the guy is struggling to recommend ES over Avalon. And even if the Lexus claim would be true i.e. that they try new features in Toyota first. Then this is proof they are just lying - Avalon and ES launched at the same time with exactly the same features:

I think in that light RC300h is certainly a better car... RC200t just has no purpose really. In my case it was £10k+ cheaper so that was the main reason to choose between the two. I have as well mentioned the same in "IS/RC/GS discontinued" topic - if Lexus would release IS/RC200h it would be massive success, it would be arguably awful car but there is huge market for "new cheap luxury cars" and people who do not care about how they drive (woman in particular). They just want fancy looking cars as cheap as possible. Actually, you can fairly say that I am in this category (because I choosen 200t>300h because of the price), but I am in this category not by choice, but because Lexus does not give me other other options. In BMW range I would have 440i/435i and equivalent car in Lexus range would be RC350 - but Lexus just won't sell it. This is repetition again - but then I only have choice between RC200t or RC-F and neither of them are where I want to be.

I call that Taxi... Sorry, I just quoted "punchline", but that is the key for me. Generally I actually agree with you, hence my prediction than in future the looks of the car won't matter - they will be cubicles on wheels with focus to make interior better. Shift is already happening - instead of beautiful coupes people choose to get ugly SUVs... However, you will need to wait at least until my generation dies out to fully appreciate this change (and I am from that forever blamed generation called millennials!). So we talking at very least 40+ years from now. I simply do not appreciate the "vehicle as a service" model - no I do not give a **** that I don't need to own it and I could just call it. Again I can call uber nowadays and that is for all intended purposes the same. You can even choose between uber standard (shared), plus or premium which will determine what type of car will pick you up. The only difference is that in future you won't need to talk with driver which may be positive or negative thing depending on your perspective. Car ownership is very special thing for me, where I have to own the car, which looks right inside, outside, with very particular interior colour and very particular tyres and rims, and it has to have particular features and particular audio system and smell in particular way (certainly not to smell the sweat or vomit of the previous user). So this claim that - "you simply simply call it and it appears" does not work for me. Yes it is fine if I can call it an it appears, but it must be my car, not just publicly shared toilet/sink/bed/cubicle "thing".

It is funny you said that as incidentally today I have spent nearly 3 hours in AT, searching what I can replace my RC with - if you want to check this is my particular search criteria which is 56 pages long then help yourself -https://bit.ly/2TVHmM2 Just to note IS250 is non starter - 4 doors. A5 is non starter - diesel/FWD. The rests are good shouts and I have considered them all many times over. Point is there are 154 BMW's, 16 MBs, 3 Infinity, 1 Maserati and 1 Jaguars in search and all of of them are arguably worse cars. Yes many of them have better engines, but the engine is just one of many things which makes the car "whole", very important one, but still just one of many things. If I go into more details within BMW there are 2 models in particular which I consider - BMW 435i, BMW 640i/650i/640d. For the same money (I actually set it to £20k) BMW 435i will be 2 years older, have more miles and their interior is outright nasty - it is just so basic and boring that I could not stand it. BMW 6-Series I have considered carefully (even when I bought my car), but the only model which makes sense is 640d.. and I am not fan of diesel, further they are very common and rather "dull" looking cars. 650i I think is the car which would be most suitable and would make me happiest, but to be honest RC just feels more modern (technology in BMW 6 is ~2010). So I could replace "current" Lexus with EOL BMW- not great! 16 MBs are all EOL last gen E400 models (few CLs which are even older) - they just feels extremely dated ~ 2008 and not comparable to Lexus. Ugly inside and outside. Infinity is just more glittery type of Nissan - disgusting cars, I could still swallow outside, but inside looks bad. Maserati and Jaguar - in both cases old 2003 models, which are obsolete - having one is looking for trouble. All above would not be reliable. In short - I have done short search, I have done long search I have repeated them many times and under £20k there is nothing to choose. Some cars have better engines, some cars are faster, but as a package they are all worse.

No it would not be - the point I am trying to make (I might be wrong thought) is that driver and passenger seats are identical. The handle would be on outside for both LHD and RHD models, and the difference is only that you will fit passenger seat on the driver side in UK. Basically, if what I am saying is correct we can treat the seats simply as "left and right seat". "Right" seat in UK would be identical to right seat in US, but in UK it would be "drivers" seat, whereas in US same seat would be "passengers" seat. Again this is just the way it looks externally, maybe there are some subtle internal differences which I don't know about.

Me neither... I guess you provided the the answer to your own question there. The makes a car "true Lexus" for me is not the platform it is based on, however I expect things like exclusive interior and exterior design, exclusive build quality and materials, better technology (and more of it), more ergonomic controls and better experience... Overall - just take existing Toyota and improve upon it, to give more luxurious experience. This is largely the case with Lexus e.g. UX looks and feels much better than Toyota CH-R and I am sure the dealership experience is better as well. However, that is not always the case e.g. RAV4 now has never and better hybrid system than NX... that is not acceptable considering NX is more expensive car and Lexus is more premium brand. This is typical - "less for more" issue. ES just overall does not feel that much better than last gen IS mk3 and based on some reviews I seen from US, not much better than Avalon. In US Avalon is apparently $6000 cheaper and people are questioning the rationale to have Lexus considering ES not being major improvement. So that is where rebandging is an issue - if $6000 does not buy me anything of value, then Lexus badge does not have add value either. If I literally missing out by getting NX, then Toyota badge on RAV4 becomes actually more valuable (objectively).

Sorry, completely forgotten about Toyota Celsior which is = Lexus LS. Although in this case it is Lexus rebadged as Toyota in domestic Japanese market, rather the than other way around. So I guess my claim that LS has always been the exclusively Lexus car is still correct. This is opposite from all other models which until ~2005 have been based on rebadged Toyotas. As already mentioned IS mk2/3 (and 4), GS mk3/4 and RC + LC were as well true Lexus. That said I don't mind Lexus just being more fancy rebadged Toyota - as long as it provides the additional value Lexus nameplate costs. I don't fee this is case case in NX, UX nor ES.

How? Even before we could import Japanese cars, we had many Japanese owned factories - if they would be compliant and if there would be demand for same cars as in Japan we would already have them. Tariffs for Japanese imports have not reduced with new deal, compared to being in EU. And I am not politicising this issue at all, I am just saying that compared to previous UK situation with EU-Japan trade and current direct UK-Japan trade agreement - nothing has changed in terms of conditions for Japanese cars being made or imported to UK. If anything it just became worse - previously Japan could certify cars for EU as a whole, now they will need to certify for EU and UK separately. Now it sounds like this means UK can have different cars from EU (and that is partially true), but reality is that we just going to have less cars. Because where you could justify certifying car for market like EU, it is much harder to justify certification for small market like UK. So I think the story is going to be more like 300h, we will get car models, but we will get only the most boring type of it which is most likely to sell in big numbers. And will get less "exciting" models which sells in low numbers. Previously it was just Lexus, but in future I believe it will be the case whit many more brands. Just my opinion thought - if there are fact proving me wrong I would like to hear them.

I prefer that too, but I agree that there are utility in car being able to completely drive itself (without driver being in it, or driver being incapacitated in some way). So I only see 2 ways: 1. As long as I am required to be behind the wheel "autopilot" is pointless, if I behind the wheel I will drive myself. Driver conveniences like LSS+ are nice addition because sometimes radar cruise control is good thing, and automatic braking can save you from disaster. However, things like Tesla "autopilot" is pointless gimmick - where is fun looking at AI "learning", cannot really see anything more boring than that. 2. Full autonomous driving is cool... because I can drive to the party and simply ask my car to take me back home. Or say I am going to central London where parking is not available, I can drive right to the doorstep of where I am going and ask car to drive away and find parking maybe 5 miles away where it is cheap or free. It is like have personal taxi or chauffeur. This is nice utility as I no longer need to use Taxi or stinking public transport. The side we drive on is an aspect, but it is not really relevant here - the environmental protection standards and to some degree culture in UK is more like in EU (In terms of standard identical) and less like in Japan. And this means ES is cheaper and poorer. If you take BMW 3 Series and compare one generation to another, they won't be on the same level. If the car which is generation newer and half-class higher and more expensive feels like on "just on same level", then it isn't good. Don't forget it as well costs more like GS and meant to replace GS... and it is not on the same level as GS! Further, don't forget ES is not in the market competing against mk3 IS... it is in the market competing with cars like Audi A5, BMW 4 GC, WV Arteon, and on higher-end Mercedes CLS, Audi A7. 4-Door coupes are already niche market and with it's sole 300h engine it barely targets 5% of that market and even there are more competitive options. Lexus claims it goes against BMW-5 and MB E-Class are just funny... if not little bit sad. No it is not - it is outclassed and has literally no place next to BMW 5 or MB E... just different league alltogether. I tend to believe they will keep ES until for whole generation before withdrawing like GS, at very earliest they may drop it before FL. Meaning we will sadly have it here here for at least 5-6 years.