Linas.P

This is complete of topic by the way.... Yes Lamborghini would not benefit from larger wheels, just old technology. Equally, modern cars cannot run on 15 inch wheels, you cannot fit large enough brakes in such wheels etc. There are many reasons why F1 uses 13" wheels, on of which to specifically limit the teams, not to help them. But there are other considerations, damping suspension in the tyre wall is lighter than necessary dampening in suspension, F1 cars are very light so they can fit brakes even in small wheels etc. etc. But even then as you can imagine driving F1 car on the road would brake your back - so having thick tyres and small wheels does not help the comfort at all. F1 technology overall cannot be compared to passenger cars and isn't even relevant. I agree that larger wheels focuses more on handling and steering feels rather than comfort, but average modern car on 18" is still much more comfortable than average 30 years old car on 14". Technological advancement allows better handling and better comfort at the same time.

Yes lights won't need replacing in the "life-time" of the car, presumably 10-20 years or more. If one was to get faulty, I believe they are replaced as the whole unit. I recently find out that only lights which may need changing are indicators as they are incandescent and not LED (aftermarket LED options available). This is bizarre - how did they decide to put incandescent lights indicators (in least suitable place for incandescent light to be) when whole car has LED and especially considering older models already had LEDs. Replacing them is not the easiest task either, but as far as I know they last long time anyway (see p.571😞 https://d24bc9lyrt5en5.cloudfront.net/Customer-Portal-Admin/emanuals/LEXUS/OM24728E.pdf

I understand you looking at Face-lift model? Well, if you drove it and you love it, then I guess there are NO major negative points about the car. With model being discontinued I don't think it will impact prices that much, on one hand fairly new late models with depreciate quicker than they would have otherwise as dealers will be keen to get them out, but cars at the middle and lower end of the market would not be impacted that much, these are rare cars and with them no longer for sale used market may even strengthen - I don't see them going up in value, but they may stay around the same cost for a while. They are rock solid when it comes to reliability and cheap to maintain. Make sure you get all relevant options you may want in the car you getting as aftermarket and retrofitting doesn't really exist for Lexus. One thing I would avoid like plague is the standard audio system which is recognisable by the round knob... it is objectively very bad audio system (it may not be an issue for you, as this was no longer fitted face-lift models): That said there is widescreen android sat-nav replacement which is plug an play for ~ £600-900 if you wanted to get better experience from your car. But I would not recommend it unless you are certain type of "techie" person and android user. Not many are aware, but there were 2 face-lifts for this model. From 2016 there was original 300h, then from 2018 there were cars with updated infotainment (wide-screen) and LSS+ and from 2019 there was full face-lift, with new mirrors, headlight and tail-light, but the same internally as 2018-2019 model. It is not easy to tell apart when the change happened as there are some late 2017MY models registered in 2018 and some early 2019MY cars pre-registered in 2018 - the way to tell the difference is "wide-screen" sat-nav (10.25" vs. old 8"). That is your personal choice buy I would consider 2018 cars as best option, as they have all the same tech, but not the style changes which to be honest I don't like (but that is my personal taste). Not sure I understood what you meant by this? In terms of small niggle things, I have many: like boot being awkward to close cars from same year just being more modern (e.g. NX) I don't like how indicators work etc. But that said, there is nothing you can do about it (you cannot just go and buy SUV instead) and you already said you felt in the cabin like at home, so I assume for you it is not a problem how indicators work.

Yes , sorry - that may have been where I gone wrong. As I remember in the beginning all cars definitely had it. I assumed this would continue (like it did on RC-F).

First of all, why this does not have as much impact as it could have I absolutely agree, when BMW, MB and Audi starts including this as standard it will become an issue for Lexus.You see with Lexus you generally get few trim levels (Luxury, F-sport, Premier) and few options (Premium-Nav, Sunroof and ML). That is it - if you take for example F-Sport + P/Nav/ML you car will have every single feature available for it as standard. It is not like that with BMW or MB - there you have list of 300 options, all of which are paid extras and you could have nearly indefinite number of combinations of what is fitted to the car. Yes BMW has 360 camera option and Lexus does not (except of NX for some weird reason), yes BMW has perhaps this dashcam option and Lexus does not... However, in the end of the day very very few people choose to add £1000 optional dashcam in their car when ordering and in 90% of the case average Lexus for the same year will be better equipped than average BMW - because with Lexus you pretty much get all the option with the trim you choose. Now all that said, again I agree that tech in Lexus is behind say BMW, but the issues Lexus have is mostly not deal-braking e.g. I could not care less if Lexus offers built in dash-cam or not, if I really need one it could be fitted for £100. Yes - not having android auto is an issue for me, but Lexus has it now. It may not satisfy you, but many people appreciates "tried and tested technology working" rather than "novelty and gimmick new stuff which only works sometimes". I know you may disagree and you have shown some sources where apparently Tesla owners are very happy with their purchase, yet I still need to see any major survey showing that. Secondly, why Lexus saloons do no sell This is partially related to what @dutchie01 said. Tesla is beneficial to own because government supports the sales, without government support Tesla would not shift any cars. Same applies to cars like BMW 330e, MB 300e - those sells in big numbers... why? Because they are eligible company cars as such people get them via work tax free with only small percentage of BIK. Fleet buyers buys the due to low tax as well. Lexus made major mistake with 300h, because 300h is not eligible as company car since ~2017 (or 2018) due to stupid changes in taxation and CO2 calculations. So people who buy them generally have to be cash buyers or finance them after tax and it automatically limits the number of cars sold. Besides Lexus strategy in Europe is overall flawed in my opinion, without having brand recognition they have in US, they tried selling their cars at premium over established luxury brands, not only that they only brought 20% of their line-up to this battle and obviously lost. They never even meant to succeed. So whole sales thing, is not because Teslas or BMWs are such a great cars and people like them, it is because they are promoted by taxation and are just fiscally beneficial to own.

Yes and it handled like pig at any speed and had much harsher suspension than Renault Scenic, not to mention other things like tyre rolling resistance being terrible by today standards. I agree having 20" wheels on Renault Scenic is more for looks than anything else, but provided the roads are reasonably good is not an issue and still if is far far more comfortable than Lamborghini from 70's. What I am saying is that there is limit of how small the wheels could be to still support the car power and keep it fuel efficient. Some moderns car do have unnecessary large wheels, but anywhere between 16-19 inch is reasonable.

That is why I am comparing it with "Premium Nav" sound system, I just find it working better from poorer source and having more depth in "modern" music. ML is "technically" better system, but I found it to be more suitable for instrumental/vocal songs and not "universally" better. Same here, but the fact is - car is terrible for hi-fi, your position is wrong in the car to begin with, so my bal/fad suggestions are to try to work around it.

Technically... although please show me the UK delivered car which does not have ML. Same for RC-F and GS-F... they all have it fitted. As for HUD, I am less confident, but most cars have it and thus I assumed it was as well fitted to all, I am yet to see one without.

Congrats, As far as I am aware Apple Car Plays is retrofit (update) on LC, I haven't seen anyone showing how they done it, but many owners claimed it is not available on post 2018 Models. ML and HUD were standard on all LCs, thought. Climate is apparently automatic (Lexus Climate Concierge) in LC, so in theory you don't need to change anything - set temperature and car will decide which vents to use and when to heat or cool the seat. Cannot comment how well it works in long term thought. System is newer version of one fit in LS: https://blog.lexus.co.uk/what-is-lexus-climate-concierge-and-how-does-it-work/

It looks beautiful - make sure to elevate your drive way this time ! It would be real shame if this one would get flooded! 🥶 Regarding ML and in comparison to Lexus Premium system I have notice following: ML has less base, but more clarity and thus is much more sensitive to source quality e.g. if you have very good source it will reproduce the sound with much more clarity, but if your source is poor (ripped from youtube for example) it will highlight all the artefacts you have there. ML doesn't have good sub-woofer, it is kind of weak overall on low frequencies... it is not a problem if you listening to classical music, or very instrumental/vocal songs - it has good reproduction in mid/high frequencies. But if you listening to modern music, pop etc. which tends to be very "bassy" - system just doesn't sound that well past ~30-35, it doesn't have sufficient depth. Overall, ML just does not sound good past ~45-50 - it gets very loud, but it just somewhat sounds flat. Again I attribute all that to system not being balanced for full frequency - mid/highs just overpowers the lows after 50% of volume. That said it is still very good system, just has it's own limitations - I wish they do something similar to BMW HK system where you have 3-subs, the main one + 2 small ones under driver and passenger seat. You just literally "feel" the music there without blasting it too loud. To be fair adjustments provided by such "High-End Hi-Fi" are very limited and you only have 3 stage EQ and basic Balance. So my solution so far considering I am mostly sole "passenger" in the car is to set balance as +1L and fader as +2R,, and equaliser as +3L, -1M, +1H. This sort of works to give better depth for songs with base whilst removing mid/highs screaming to my face.

@javadude - very interesting post and I appreciate objective and unbiased points you made. However, it seems that many areas were Tesla is "ahead" of other manufacturers are EV only areas. Let's take for example pre-conditioning/pre-heating cabin - that would not be concern for ICE or PHEV vehicles at all, this is issue which is only relevant for EVs ins't it? Besides BMW i3/i8 as well has this feature, even some old Volvo and SAABs had, although it was mostly an option destined for Nordic countries. Second point is "range anxiety" - this again only matters in EV world as with ICE that is not consideration which one has to make. Anyone who have tried using different EVs may know that actually finding suitable charger which as well is part of the scheme you are subscribed to is more difficult than it looks at first. So indeed, I do agree with the point that between EVs Tesla has advantage with supercharger network. The cost of fuel is as well very interesting discussion, because fuel is very cheap and 90% is tax, currently when governments are trying to promote EVs many of taxes are waived, but eventually they will need to replace the income they going to loose on the fuel and I am sure they will find way to add that back to EV owners. As far as Tesla infotainment goes, I have said many times that it is one of the most advanced systems around - I never found myself in position where I needed to watch netflix in the car, but I guess each owner will have different needs. What is more interesting for me however is how do you find all the control when driving the car, could you get used to them and not being distracted from driving? Or does driving aids gives a level of security which means you can "afford" to be distracted when driving anyway?

From the list of issues certain Tesla owners have listed (below). Indeed this could be singular example, but I doubt it considering there are a lot of reports generally supporting the fact that Tesla is extremely unreliable by modern car standards. Yes Tesla over the air-updates are cool. And I have long lost hope with Lexus sat-nav - I just use my phone... actually I do that in any car - phone navigation is just so much better. Well... if you looking for sedan/saloon then Lexus gives you no other options. ES is FWD meaning it simply does not exist for me and for 68000 euro I am sure BMW 530e is much better car. Lexus already sells upward of 75% SUVs, so I guess they justify their decision by focusing on SUVs - not sure how much it will hurt the company, but they are certainly loosing remaining 25% in non-SUV segment. And considering this I would be very worried... @RichGS11 - appreciate your comment. However, I feel Tesla's inability to make reliable cars and inability to provide sufficient support cannot be played down simply by them being "new" (17 years old) company. They still charge the money for their products, so the money you pend with them is worth the same as the money you spend with any other company.

To the topic - I really don't know. For annual service I always used Lexus Dealers, their "essential service" cost is unbeatable value and keeps the "FLSH" tag if that is at all important (mandatory for extended warranty). What they not good for - for any ad-hoc work their hourly rates are just mental and makes it really uncompetitive. So my tactic when owning older Lexus was always as follows: Month before MOT take car to Lexus ~ every 12/14month or 10/12k miles for "annual" service. Ask them to inspect the car and drop few pointers on what I suspect is wrong (if anything). Once they comeback with "health report" - pay strictly only the standard service fee (cheaper if you get 2 years service plan) and reject whatever else they identify e.g. tyres, brakes, ball-joins. Then buy the parts online and either replace them myself (like fitting new brake disks or pads is 20 min job) or if I can't - take the car to closest independent garage give them parts and show them what exactly they need to do. Then go and do MOT, which passed all the way to 192k miles (and probably beyond). The independent garages I have used... I simply cannot recommend them, I would not trust them to work on putting two bricks on top of each other, never mind servicing my car without me watching. But they have the tools and with me watching and telling them what exactly to do and how to do it they are capable of doing the job. I probably don't give them enough credit they deserve as I am sure they are capable mechanics, but I just don't find them trustworthy - so my relationship with them was more like with friends: "let's grab few cans of beer and let's go figure out what is wrong with my car" sort of relationship. That said I prefer unbranded smaller garages, but void places like Kwik-fraud or Halfrauds as a plague (they are), although I found ATS trustworthy (but they are more expensive then Lexus) - I let them do my tyres thought.

Cannot comment about the service in Italy - so I just take your word for it becoming worse. In UK Toyota and Lexus dealers are generally quite distinct and you get better customer service from Lexus in general. However, some dealership franchises are better than others and some are now truly undermine name. How does that compare to Tesla? I don't know from owners perspective as sales and after-sales are quite distinctly different, but sales on Tesla is non-existent. Same like ordering a microwave online - you look at the specs and you order what want. I almost prefer it that way, but it seems similar to Google here - either your questions is already covered as part of existing workflow, or you won't get support (like at all). Not sure where you got impression that Tesla dealerships are similar to old ways Lexus worked (maybe that is the case in Italy?). Considering how much you will need to be in touch with after-sales in case of Tesla - it better be excellent as their cars disintegrating continuously. So here is a question, what is better - car which is so reliable that you never need to visit dealership or contact them - or the excellent service for the car which breakdowns on average once every 6 weeks? To be fair I had very good experience with Lexus warranty service, although I never trusted Lexus dealership to work on the car except of standard service items and they were not inspiring with their knowledge (but is just me, I would not trust anyone anyway). I agree that we have moved into off-topic with whole "self-driving topic", but if you looking for the "old generation experience", or value quality and reliability, then Tesla is definitely not for you. Lexus is not perfect either - they need to improve on many fronts, many decision they have made don't make sense (like stopping the sales of new IS) and I see it will be difficult to stay with brand if you want same level of performance and quality. If you ask me, for replacement of IS I would look into new BMW 330e (PHEV) or MB 300e (PHEV), the do what 300h does just do it better. Are they as reliable - no... but they are reliable enough for you not to worry during the warranty period. If you spec. the cars for similar price of Lexus IS , BMW comes at ~£2000 more (for new model) and MB comes at around £1000 less (at least in UK). BMW i4 fully electric car will come at similar price point just above as Tesla Model 3 (new i3 will be direct competitor) and at least in my opinion much more beautiful, but it is hard to comment on it yet (maybe it will be ready by the time you start looking for replacement). Both are recognised luxury brands, both have reasonable dealership experience. That is my conclusion here. I have to take your word for it, but I must say it is surprising. Tesla quality issues are well known and documented, some are outright failures, but many are just generally shoddy build quality. The particular person who so fiercely promotes the brand here had 15 faults with Model X in 2 years (every 6 weeks on average). If you look to brilliant Savagegeese video, he covers many of the issues and even interviews body-shops working with these issues. The paint problems shown in the video - my test Model 3 had them all, Model S was better thought and apart of some interior pieces falling off and few suspicious panels gaps here and there at least the paint was actually good. So likewise, I am not biased against Tesla or EVs, I am just saying the quality of the cars is miles away from acceptable and light years away from Lexus.

So called "unintended acceleration" issue is not a mark against automaker, it is just (1) a proof that some people are so retarded they they cannot operate 2 pedals correctly and (2) that in US you can make completely baseless claims and win in court. As result now we have stupid built in delay in acceleration which needs to be "programmed-out" for the controls to be responsive again. As well, I understand some more complex issues which are mechanical and may need very specific circumstances to reproduce. Here we talking about doors not closing and not opening - I mean c'mon that is absolute basics. If you haven't tried Tesla I really recommend doing it. Everything was flexing, rattling and squeaking around. I was afraid to use moderate force to close the doors because it felt like I will rip the door handle off. If I would inspect 200,000 miles Lexus and see panel gaps like on Tesla I would walk away because I would assume car was in accident and body integrity is compromised. Both cars I tried were brand new demonstrators (I think Model 3 had 1500 miles and S was ~8000) and they were literally disintegrating around me! No - many people prefer to live at present, rather than dream about the future. Never mind paying today without any guarantees for it to become reality tomorrow. Many Lexus owners can afford many thing, but "affordable" is not the same as "good value" or "good choice" or "good technology". Can I afford iPhone - yes I can, but I choose not to because I consider it inferior, based on specifications and functionality. Same for Tesla - could I afford it... yes I can, but I don't want to because it is not a good car. And that is evident, dreaming about things which are impossible to achieve - like level 5 automation with simply DL algorithm.

Apparently, this was first fitted to Toyota Prius, then LS and then Ford and BMW followed the suit. Currently only Koreans are keen on it - like KIA and Hyundai. In UK we associate this technology to Lexus because of Top Gear and them showing how LS miserably fails the attempt to park itself.

Exactly, I remember ~2010 there was big hype of "self parking cars" and now it somehow died out. It sounds great in theory (and I hate parallel parking myself), but when you try to use it in practice it never works and the only time it works are places which are so obvious and easy to park that anyone could do it anyway.

You didn't answer the question... Doesn't matter what car can do... there are many things which could work in theory, but do not work in practice. Many cars can do 200MPH, but what is the practical application of that? Here BMW drives it self as well... so what? - Do I need to be in the car, hold the wheel, be fit to drive and try not to fall a sleep when using Tesla "Autopilot"?

Can you remind me if I need to be in the car, hold the wheel, be fit to drive and try not to fall a sleep when using Tesla "Autopilot"?

If that pleases you more - fine, take it as you wish!. I never said Tesla is far behind, I just said that they are "not far ahead" at all. Tesla does not have any technology which is ready to use or adds any value and I don't need their half-baked beta crap system. By the way Mercedes have cancelled their automation project. The goal of their project was level-5 and they are by now have level-3 automation together with BMW. They have concluded that "car as a service" model makes no sense for Luxury brands where drivers values their individuality, car ownership and the driving experience and I agree with them. Shared self-driving boxes on the wheel is value proposition for car ownership for poor. However, in Luxury car market that is not a value which is important. Not sure if BMW will cancel their part of project as well.

It can only do that because the human is supervising it, making it completely pointless - if you human is fit to supervise the system, then human is fit to drive the car as well. I would not pay as single penny premium to have this is my car over Lexus LSS+. So indeed I cannot post the video of £40k car doing it, but it is irrelevant, because other automakers do not risk their customer life like this and do not use them to test such technologies. They do not sell it, because it is not ready for sale... Tesla autopilot is not ready for sale either, however they choose to sell it because they know that they have brainwashed customer base to pay for it. Same like apple knows they can sell stupid monitor stand for £999 . Ironically - difference being that apple stand is at least ready for sale and won't kill you...

If you simply don't know the answer to the question, that does not make you right and me wrong either! Thanks for being defensive for no reason if not somewhat awkward... Now to actually answer the question with facts - you are partially right, but there are places where you are wrong. To summarise there were several generations of both "standard" and "sport" suspension, the defining difference is the shock absorbed (assembly) used. Feel free to check other parts, but I find them matching between models, so it is safe to say they are same. Standard suspension used the standard oil shock-absorber (to my my surprise they started with identical absorbers as on IS mk2). "Sport" suspension used magnetic shock absorber which is as well required for AVS to work Now when it comes to Premier vs. F-Sport - Premier used Standard shock absorbers between 04/2013 and 10/2016, after that it used same shock absorber as F-Sport as indicated by part numbers being identical. I believe AVS became standard on Premier/F-Sport after 10/2016 and you can't do AVS on oil-shock absorber. I even added nice exploded diagram and table below showing all generations highlighting matching part numbers, so that (god forbid) you don't need to think too hard at any time! Similar case for rear suspension, just less generations (3 standard and 2 Sport, instead of 5 standard and 4 sport).

Exactly that - their technology is not better and the only difference is that it is available to mass public. They use public as test dummies, other makes don't. If I sell under-cooked pies when other don't, it does not make my pies better - they are still raw!

No I am just interested as this was raised many times, but I have not seen any evidence to that. I drove several IS300h whilst at servicing at Lexus and different IS300h's felt differently, but as well they had different size wheels and different tyres. I guess my only option is to go and fine some documents definitely proving this "theory" right or wrong... Regarding the wheels sizes - yes 17-19inch looks better than 14-15inch wheels, as well they give you better handling and they are required to deliver the performance. Older cars had 100hp/Nm and current cars have 200+, meaning you need wider tyres to handle it. How wide can you go on 14-15 inch? So here is the answer - the larger wheels are not just for looks, it is as well required to be able to keep you safe on the road with increased power of modern cars. On top of that many modern tyres now can offer sufficient comfort and rim protection even when being much thinner. So I see larger wheels as result of technological improvement rather than blind fashion. Does 200hp 300h needs 18inch wheels - no probably not, 16's have enough choice to fit necessary size tyres, but does performance car with 400hp needs 20inch wheels? Yes it does. Other thing we fail to note here - not all the countries around the world have abandoned their roads like UK. Roads are silky smooth in France, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium and many other countries - better road surface means cars with larger wheels can still drive on them with comfort. Sadly as far as I can remember UK roads are becoming worse and worse every year, to the extent that some people simply bet SUVs as the road surface is so bad, it will soon require lifter off-roaders to pass.

(1) Don't you see that as an issue when creating dependable system on which reliability depends millions of lives? (2) I think it could be both, but currently it is latter. Take for example trains - their environment is isolated and they can be fully automated with few basic safeguards. Would it still kill people - yes of course if they manage jump in front of speeding train, but that won't be an issue with train technology - it would be suicidal people abusing it. For cars we currently can't do it, because our roads are too chaotic - we allow too many people to use them who should not use them (at all, even if we ignore driving automation for a second). If we redesign our roads the driving automation could be made less intelligent and more procedural, but there are always trade-offs. Current trade-off many developed countries have made - they made roads very accessible for all sorts of incompatible "objects", in the alternate reality where roads are more exclusive and access is based on suitability and purpose I can see automation as much more likely outcome. It is good that technology and your car excites you, however we need to put things in perspective - Tesla did not create some panacea, in fact they are behind the race nowadays. The only difference is that Tesla in this case is that "teenager on social media" sharing every moment of their lives to the world, whereas other automakers keeping their technology for themselves until it is ready. If Tesla is winning anything it is only the marketing - they manage to market their level 2 system in such a way that many people believe it is more advanced then alternative level 3 or 4 systems. When the systems and laws will be ready I will be very excited to use automation, sadly I have looked to all alternatives currently and there is nothing fit for purpose. You can automate "the learning" to some extent, but you are right - at the moment it would still be limited to scope defined by human programmer before hand. This is what differentiates "true AI" and limited scope ML/DL systems. When machines going to really start learning by themselves I am afraid it will be irreversible process, very exciting times as well, I am just not sure we humans going to be part of them.