dutchie01

Not good. some 20 stations at the moment. Chicken or the egg i guess, no demand as there are no hydrogen cars. And all focus seems to be on EV charging. Btw, the Mirai firstedition will have a very special service. Provided you live not further away from a charging station than 50kms Toyota will collect and deliver your car for filling it up. Now how is that for a service... Full tank will bring you 650km

In the pricelists in Holland as from today and available as from january. Launch edition for sale at 68k Euro which is about thesame price as a well equipped Lexus ES. With the discussions on Electric Vehicles very well alive i wonder what your opinions will be on this one?

Well said gang and i do more or less understand it. Any car should have emotion in its DNA and that is becoming more rare nowadays. It reminds me a bit of owning an Alfa in the nineties. Buildquality was well below par and you would get stuck everywhere but still people ( like me ) wanted to have one, to own one, to be part of the heritage to join that exclusive club fitting ones personality. i think it may well be thesame for you? Having said that i still think the overwhelming majority of Tesla owners made the decision with their wallet and then i mean fiscal stimulation. Take the model S and X for instance. overhere costing in excess well over 100k but hey, no fiscal add ons at all meaning driving at zero (0) cost if it is a company car. Needless to say they sold like hot cakes. Beginning 2020 the fiscal regulation changed to 8% add to 50k and 22% for the rest. Guess what happened? S and X dead with zero sale overnight and everybody flocking to the model 3. What will happen with Tesla if in 2 years the fiscal stimulation totally disappears? will only the true Tesla fans keep buying them? And if Tesla wants to get new customers or retain the current ones, they have to offer something more than what they do now.. There is trouble coming quickly as Audi, Merc, BMW Volkswagen, Skoda have now started releasing full EVs at a relentless pace. cars with impeccable buildquality and electronic dashboards to wow customers. Take the new Skoda Enyaq. It is one third cheaper than the model 3 and well screwed together. Yes it does not have the Tesla/Apple image but like i said most people dont care they decide with their wallet. As you see it is not a black and white decision. Everyone for their own and just whats good for you. ( but i would not buy Tesla shares at the moment).

Well Dave, in Holland we have a saying "every disadvantage has an advantage" and in your case that really seems the case. Absolutely stunning in blue!

If you have some spare time during lockdown just go to Savagegeese on youtube Tesla 3. In my opinion this will give you a balanced view of the Tesla company/operations and the model 3.

www.teslaclaim.nl 2 weeks ago some deeply disappointed Dutch Tesla drivers came together and decided to form a cooperation to prepare a tesla claim. Within 2 weeks some 200 other owners joined. All issues are on their website above have a look. To speed up translation here are some of the issues; Bad functioning autopilot ( !! ) - Windscreenwipers not working - hammering noise during accelleration - cracking noise when driving over speedbumps - strips falling off - lighting not functioning properly - doors that will not open - doors opening spontaneously - broken computer - yellow lines around screen - windows not closing fully - carkit not working - problems during charging - reduced power - smaller range than Tesla promises. Can you find me a Lexus that will do thesame? Can you give me details of Lexusclaim or Toyotaclaim? Gang, software and cool screens in the interior are only one part of the total sum that defines quality. You also gave numerous examples of all things that broke on your Tesla. Traditional automotive companies like Toyota/Lexus test and test and test before releasing a product. Tesla does it the other way around like all softwarecompanies do. Just release it and we will repair it on the go. You can be an enthusiastic ambassador of the Tesla software systems but please do realize you will never be able to say the Tesla is a quality product. Full Stop.

Sorry Gang i admire your enthusiasm for this but i just dont get it. Seems more like a circus act to me, a gimmick you show your friends when leaving the pub.

I know as a consumer which company i would rather associate with. That sounds a bit like Apple to me. Whatever they market at whatever price the fans will sleep in the streets to have it, i guess they want to be associated with, be part of the brand want to belong with the modern high tech independent intelligent exclusive image ( you get what i mean ) Enter Tesla. Where i live a Tesla is not exclusive, they are literally everywhere. Believe me or not but about a month ago during rushhour when entering the highway there were 3 behind me and 1 in front of me. It is the preferred companycar. Why? because of the advanced autopilot system? Almost nobody has this as it is a 7500 euro option. The only reason wht Tesla sold some 35k cars in the netherlands last year is fiscal stimulation it is with a big distance the most cost effective way of motoring. You can spend the saved money to your family. Think of it the other way. The saloon market is melting away in favour of SUV's And what is the best selling car? A saloon the tesla 3, does not really add up does it? Take the fiscal savings away and Tesla is dead in the water. I do admire the progressive approach of the company which brought them success so far but i do find the styling bland and the buildquality dubious. When i see the pic of Mr Toyoda in front of the hyper exclusive Century GRMN i know what i will choose and it is not a Tesla. There will be more technical expertise in the opening of the doors of the Century than in the entire Tesla3.

Now back from Artificial to Human Intelligence. About 3 yrs ago i was adviced not to operate a motorvehicle for about 2 wks as my inner ear was causing lightheadedness. During that second week i felt ok so took the car for a drive and only then i experienced what data the human brain has to decipher in order to cross a busy roundabout. EVERYTHING moves. in different directions, at different speeds, different shapes, sizes. You have to predict where that all will end up in a split second. Of course i failed hopelessly and felt totally in the wrong spot, started sweating and slowly drove home. In short, my own processor was not able to cope with the massive input of data and could not process this in time to come to a result. It was then i realized that driving a car is way more complicated than i always thought and i came to the conclusion that selfdriving cars will take years and years to develop.

I am afraid this is getting complicated Linas, if not impossible. Whatever you will do it is going to cost you. Just saying but you could have made an expensive mistake in buying your RC200T, a car without any demand. You got it for a good price 15.5k and after only 1 year you are looking for an alternative not costing more than 20k. Here comes trouble. Selling the car private will be a big challenge if not impossible and if you want to trade in for a 20k car what will be the bid? 9k? maybe they dont want it at all and you could be stuck here. The only way of getting a good price will be to trade in for a new LC500..

Well, lets put things in perspective. here. This is just an irrelevant forum about irrelevant cars with irrelevant people posting irrelevant messages on non important topics. What we post here is not really going to change the world is it? Besides that it could well be there are more important topics in the world right now........ Question remains however, what will be the next Linasmobile? How about infinity Q60? coupe RWD big six cylinder, 4 seats and not expensive!

Hmmm, i dont think the IS is up to the new 3 series. It is an old design and even with the engines you mention it will not stand a chance of luring customers out of their bmws. The 200t is too thirsty and too dirty, the 300H will go head on with the 330e plug in, the 250 has no power, too thirsty and old. the 350 will go head on with the 340 which will not go well and the new M# will drive circles around the ISF. The new IS will have to be sold on exclusivity and design alone which implies low sales. Maybe it is understandable they dont bring the IS to Europe. Apparently no business case.

If the new IS would come to Europe i would buy it next year. I really would, i like the new look the wider stance, great looking car and RWD.

I think these 2 pics are a fine example of two different philosophys in car design likely caused by different cultures. The new S class and below the top model from toyota in japan the century. This car is almost twice as expensive as the S class and is all about understated elegance. As the deigners put it @the century gives a message of position and power and not about wealth@. Germany and Japan. The first showing an incredible high tech overkill with everything visible. Teams are working to give a potential customer an instant shock when he or she opens the door in the showroom, all systems wake up and the wowfactor will contribute heavily to a sale or not. Toyota as conservative as ever having built a reputation of no thrills cars, bland in design and with bulletproof reliability. The century is built in a special factory and all and like the S class has been the pinnacle of the industry for decades ( previous model had a petrol V12). When toyota does not play along with screens and visible high tech ( even the new golf has them now) i think it is out of choice. question remains for Lexus how long can they keep doing that as the competition just moves on making lexus cars in the showroom outdated? '); doc.close(); })();

Ganzoom. I am really interested to hear what is drawing you towards Tesla. From your contributions over the years i am under the impression you are a tech lover and will adapt all new technology immediately. Is it the software, the digital environment of the car, The brandimage? a bit like Apple where the aficionados just want to have everything and even stand in line for hours on end to get the latest release? It surely cannot be the buildquality of the car as you have written yourself in various mails, if Lexus would release cars like that it would be recall after recall and bad press on end. In my idea there are the early adapters of the new technology, the fans of the first hour that like the brand as much as the owner and want to be part of it. They will buy privately as they just want to own a Tesla. Then the environmentalists that will charge the car from their own solarpanels and it totally fits their lifestyle. The largest group will be the company car owners that drive it as it is cheap. For 50 euro a month you can drive as much as you want and the company pays your electricity. Tesla is their lover until another cheapie comes around. If say Audi all of a sudden would take over the lead with autonomous driving and electronic cockpits and buidlquality to match would you be willing to switch brand ? And yes i too find the Lexus infotainment systems heavily outdated. Not only to Tesla but basically to almost all competitors, it seems 3 generations old now. ( and i find the electronic doorhandles in a Tesla incredibly dangerous, anyone that experienced a bad accident and was depending on outside help will understand).

For the German manf it is a different story as they rely heavily on EU sales that are pushed below the 90 grams figure by EU regulation. The fines are horrendous and for instance Vokswagen is expected to receive one next year of over 2 Billion. THATS why they are going all or nothing in EV development, its the only way out. In the next 12 months you will see a bombardment of EVs from VAG, MB and BMW. ( and sneakily the FRENCH are quietly introducing one after the other already!

I dont think you can compare toyota and tesla, its just ridiculous. Toyota is building some 11 MILLION cars each year and Tesla 500k. Hats off to the Tesla people as starting as a software company they are now learning to build motorcars. ( i remember a niche manufacturer telling it is easy to build an engine but trying to make door fit exactly is something completely different...). Toyota as we all know does know a thing or 2 about car design and how to make it work. If Toyota does not have EVs at the moment it is out of strategy and not because they dont know how to do it. Their route is Hybrid, Now introducing Plug in Hybrid and in some years when the market is there go for EV. Remember toyota eis NOT AT ALL affected by the EU Co2 regulations so they are in a different position than the European manufacturers. The only reason Tesla has become a success overnight is because of fiscal stimulation and tax breaks for company car drivers. Take these away and the cars will be unsellable.

hyundai/Kia/Genesis is developing with lightspeed and every new model is a big leap forward so the coupe will come for sure. BTW the LS is a loooong car really the size of an S class> the IS is dead and will not return. I hear that even MB is questioning further development of the C class as it maks no sense to build a car nobody wants. For your enthusiast driving how about a BMW 240i or a porsche 918 cayman?

Not so sure as the LS is a pretty big vehicle. Depends on where you live but the replacement could well come out of Corea. The Genesis G80??

introduced in China, Malaysia and i think Thailand this year. Based on the Toyota Alphard and off the scale expensive selling for bentley prices. Hyper luxurious and meant for passengers, you are not suppose to drive this thing but get chauffeured around. This could well outsell the LS.. Linas, seems your predicted future of the brand is already here?

no need to say more me thinks.....

Interesting thread developing into a philosophical discussion about the role of cars into society. I am a 60 yr old mechanical enthusiast and cannot think about beeing without one. When i turned 18 it gave me freedom and independance. It literally opened borders and especially the blood red alfa gt junior heavily improved my success with the other side! But... society has changed in 40 years, there is more money going round and any low cost carrier will bring you to wherever for a few quid. Already youngsters see cars as different than i did back then. It no longer is a status symbol and when living in the city most prefer to live without one. Todays status symbols are hyper expensive mobile phones or bicycles costing thousands. Car companies will have to adapt to this changing market and they also have to defend their market to newcomers from Asia. Yes selfdriving cars will be here one day but as long as the automatic stop system in my car scares the sh## out of me when braking when there is nothing in sight it could well take some time....