noby76

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This all started around this post - since then you've been off on a logical flip flop tour of the universe trying to wriggle out of the fact you were wrong, are wrong and will always be wrong, until you alter your view when presented with new evidence. 

Preference is nothing to do with physical differences which are a matter of fact, not opinion.

If you prefer FWD that's fine, you are allowed to buy one and drive one. But then to say people with RWD can't tell the difference, because you can't tell the difference, is ridiculous.

you are very mistaken i can tell the difference fact I am trying to point out is when most slate FWD when in reality RWD does not really hold that much of an advantage in this modern day in smaller to medium sized cars with less than say 300-350bhp for day to day driving and occasional spirited driving. technology has closed this gap if we are talking about F1 racing where a race can be lost or won by miliseconds or cars with ridiculous amount of torque and power, then yes one can use all the advantages a RWD, AWD car brings to the board. but for day to day non competition driving? lets get real here...the benefits are not as huge as being painted here 

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But it has nothing when it comes to comparing it to entry-luxury saloons.. just totally different ballpark. 

which begs the questions when comparing what exactly?

do you mean its 0-60? if so there is nothing between the two cars.

you mean top speed? again nothing between them.

you mean toys and gadgets? again nothing between them as i have the Executive model.

interior fit and finish?  they both use plastic

cruising speed?  they both quiet  

So struggling to understand what makes the IS250 a different ballpark...

1 minute ago, Jamesf1 said:

dont recall the 2.5 V6 sounding like a diesel. or a 4 pot for that matter.And yes,the interiorof the IS is better quality

give your cars a start tomorrow morning and stand outside and you will be surprised by the diesel like noise your Lexus produces.. if better quality plastic makes you guys feel superior than an Accord driver then each one to his own...  

which qualities? you mean the plastic interior? which drive? you mean the diesel like sounding engine.. guys please dont make me laugh ...

4 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

so from the dawn of motoring to the 80's, when almost all cars were RWD and did not have electronics...how did anyone survive?

average cars where less powerful than they are now and there were more road accidents aswell than there are now.

Just now, Linas.P said:

 

What 2008 IS250 is NOT.. it is not sports car or fast car or anything sporty.. suspension is tuned for comfort, engine is mediocre in power (still was ok back in the day), automatic gearbox is lovely in cruising, but not very fast. 

which will fit the bill for a FWD perfectly... the 250 drives and  performs no better than the accord. already had one as a courtesy car when my GS went in for cambelt change and trust me its no better than the Accord in every way shape or form 

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

His jokes never made much sense to anyone - overtime you just learn how to ignore them.. 

Linas your IS250 is a family saloon lets drop the Luxury word beacuse its not... as i said in a prevous thread.. drive a GS430 with the renowed V8 and let me know if your IS250 is luxury. how am i joking. i just told you what ESC does on a vehicle to prove its not your driving skills in a RWD thats keeping you safe and you think its a joke? 

https://www.ford.co.uk/shop/research/technology/safety-and-security/electronic-stability-control

Electronic Stability Control (ESC) incorporates a range of technologies designed to give you greater control of your vehicle and help keep you safe. For example, sensors constantly monitor the speed of each individual wheel, the car’s ‘yaw rate’ (its angle and direction) and steering angle. If you have to steer sharply left or right, perhaps to avoid an obstacle, ESC precisely balances braking power between each individual wheel and can also reduce power from the engine. This helps counter understeer and oversteer, making your car more stable and easier for you to control. ESC and Traction Control can also reduce the risk of wheelspin in wet or icy conditions.

fact that you not seeing a light come on on  your dashboard telling you its working does not mean it not doing its job every millisecond of your daily driving. 

22 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

• - I said all being equal. totally different makes models in not all being equal. Convert any of those cars to RWD and that would be quicker. And the BTCC things are made equal by nullyfying the RWD advantage

 

They had more power to weight ratio and still didnt lap tracks faster than a FWD Civic Type R in other words, they were better on paper due to having the upper hand with AWD, RWD and more power...what makes you think it wont go slower if converted to RWD? we all know it goes faster in FWD with power to weight ratio disadvantage when compared to the 3.  BTCC's nullifying is only at the start there is nothing in place nullyfying RWD cars when taking bends and driving in a straight line. which makes them all equal..

and yes your vehicle stability control and electronic stability control is constantly stopping you from wandering and flying off the road.  so dont think its your skills keeping you there.

20 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

 one is not even guaranteed to go quicker on the track just because its RWD

- all else equal you would.

 

No you wouldn't. SEAT Cupra, Renault Megane RS and the New Civic type R's have all officiallly lapped famous tracks quicker than Audi RS3, Merc A clas AMG and BMW 140iM these pack even more power than them.. again BTCC racing which has a combination of FWD and RWD cars competing proves this claim is flawed and all things are made equal in this sector of racing. 

20 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

 - eh? Ive provoked the traction\stability control into action once on my GS in 27k miles...that was a standing start at walking speed on snow.

 

I believe the electronics cannot be fully turned off in your Lexus GS and fact that you haven't provoked them does not mean they and other driver aids are not working in the background when driving..  with aids completely turned off most will find it difficult to even keep a RWD car to point straight when accelerating heavy on dry tarmac.. not even talking of taking bends...  

2 hours ago, Comedian said:

On FWD you're using the same wheels to propel the car as you are to turn. That equals it's more difficult to feed more power and increase speed during a turn without resulting in under- steer.

With RWD, easier to create a car with neutral balance, where weight distribution is closer to 50%. RWD can also apply power around a turn without effecting steering (obviously if you use too much throttle can lose the back but that's different to effecting the steering|).

If you prefer FWD then that's fine - there are some great FWD cars that are no doubt better round a track than some RWD (example Type R civic versus IS250) - but there are inherent differences that are an advantage; physics doesn't care if you agree or not. It's just a fact. 

this fact sounds all well and good when one is looking to extract maximum handling performance out of the car on a race track where times are measured in tenths of a second. but saying that, one is not even guaranteed to go quicker on the track just because its RWD and BTCC racing proves this.  but lets be honest for our day to day driving and the occasional blast on less busy roads when no one is watching, FWD can do this just fine. technologies like electronic steering , traction control, stability/yaw control, suspension type/damping, limited slip diff has made tourque steer pretty much a thing of the past even if its there, its not that bad like it used to be on high BHP FWD cars. 

This improvement in technology has made manufactures like Audi, Merc and now Lexus following suite to fit FWD on models which are not deemed "high performance"  and FWD cars in the hands of most people in conditions like rain, damp, ice, snow  is more controllable than RWD.. 

i think driver aids has made most RWD  drivers think they are better drivers than they actually are when in fact most of the electronics are actually keeping the car car balanced and straight to prevent one from ending up in a ditch but makes diver think its all them... 

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Where did I say that I could not handle it? I simply didn't like car which is not balanced/balanced incorrectly under acceleration and in corners.

The weight distribution of your IS250 is 52% front and 48% rear your passat CC has 57% front and 43% rear... so to put this into perspective, the Passat is heaver 0.5% at the front and losses the same at the rear. lets be honest you will not feel this during day to day driving, under acceleration nor cornering. these are not F1 cars we talking about here lets not pretend the difference is day and night.. 

25 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think if you don't know what RWD qualities are, then we should stop discussing it right here (car guy vs. non-car guy discussion) - going forward would simply be waste of mine and yours time.

No I dont know please educate me.. i think others on here would like you to go into details for us.. 

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You saying it like I haven't driven "modern" FWD - my last FWD car was 2012 Passat CC R-line, with GTI 2.0t engine and 6 speed DSG. Hated it with passion, torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer.. **** in short.

I am sorry but this makes you an "Average Joe" if you cannot handle torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer. you certainly would not be able to handle a 200-300bhp BMW with all driving aids turned off on the limit driving. trust me,

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

and it might be true that FWD can do the lap quicker. 

Which means your quote about RWD BMW not being rivalled for   "renowned  handling and performance" is flawed..

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 From that perspective some qualities which are natural for RWD car are more suitable in Luxury car and therefore I will always choose RWD.

 

which RWD qualities are you talking? if its squatting under acceleration, my Accord does that so did my ford cougar V6. not sure what you mean by RWD qualities. 

i like the two tone colour wing mirrors... a very masculine car indeed. very nice makes the latest GS look very dated

14 minutes ago, Comedian said:

It simply does. As you accelerate weight is transferred to the rear of the car, the balance changes and in RWD case the weight is transferred over the driving wheels. On a front wheel drive car weight and therefore grip is transferred away from the driving wheels. Capabilities in the middle of a corner depend on much more. But acceleration is the most obvious example.

just for entertanment

13 minutes ago, Comedian said:

 

15 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

But - as you get to the limit, i.e. on a race track, RWD is a better balanced experience, and dynamically better to split the task of power delivery and direction change across both ends rather than load onto 1.

Where I agree with Linus is that RWD is a purer, better(dynamically) way of moving a car, and in the right circumstances FWD simply cannot generate the same pleasure in the raw driving experience. Whilst my GS250 on the road doesnt especially gain from RWD other than the points I made about lock\traction, at the end of the day I just like the its RWD.

 

 not sure what you meant by pure better (dynamically) way of moving a car..  a RWD will not hold an advantage when starting of the line, rolling start, entering a corner, carrying speed round a corner or exiting out of a corner when compered to a similar well tuned FWD car of its calibre. dont get me wrong RWD still has its place in motoring but technology has closed this gap it had some years ago which makes them just as fun and pure to drive. 

20 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That was my point from outset - you cannot rival RWD car which is "renowned for handling and performance" with FWD newcomer.  Lexus struggles to challenge BMW handling with RWD, FWD has no chances... Fair enough Lexus easily rivals BMW in other things like refinement, equipment, build quality .. but not performance and handling. It is not possible win against BMW there, playing their game on their home field by their own rules.

I think you must be very mistaken if you think modern day performance FWD cars drive like FWD cars of old.. my FWD Accord handles similar to the  RWD IS300-GS430 i owned before infact it has the tendency to oversteer " loose backend" if not too careful. there are lots of modern stock FWD cars which  can lap various circuts faster than their equivalent AWD and RWD counterparts from Audi BMW and Merc. 

when push comes to shove most people "Average Joe" will end up in a ditch in a RWD car as compared to FWD when both cars are pushed to the optimum limit. Technology has closed the gap between RWD vs FWD performance cars in terms of handling that most cannot tell the difference. and FWD will gain the upper hand once conditions gets wet, damp, icy, snow..

Yeh i just realised.

who uses TomTom and Garmin these days when you have access to live data on google Maps from a decent Mobile Phone?

On 21/04/2018 at 6:07 PM, dutchie01 said:

The saloonmarket is dead. Everybody seems to want SUV s now. Porsche, jaguar and also lexus could be categorized as SUV manufacturers as that is over 50% of production. The new LS and ES are cars still needed but not vitally important for Lexus as the SUV market is still expanding rapidly hence the small medium large and maybe soon XL versions of it.

Yeh its something i have also noticed roughly 5 years ago on the roads. SUV's seems to be pretty much everywhere and most manufactures who never had SUV's in their range are all offering one of some sort.  most of them i see don't hold any more boot, front and rear leg room space when compared to a descent size saloon like GS/LS but yet people are switching to them. nothing against SUV's as i would own one at some point just to experience it but i wonder why the switch in recent years...

As the saying goes beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.. but i might have to disagree about the XF and XE's looking dull in fact i think JLR cars are  one of the latest best looking exec cars on the roads today. dont get me wrong I am a Lexus man at heart and not knocking their designs but  looking at the XE and IS below in terms of handsomeness, clean and yet masculine, i think the Jag nudges the Lex.. the rear of jag looks very tidy and not loud as compared to the IS come to the front and you notice the XE actually looks like a Jaguar with its catlike headlights, nose and outer swopping bumpers to mimic whiskers which makes it look alive. the Lex is it trying top do too much in front. Yes modern Lexus's now have this signature design look but just felt like they trying a little too much.. but hey thats my opinion. 

the ES looks very handsome... so does the new Toyota Camry such a shame most manufactures are offering/concentrating on SUV these days nothing against SUV's as I have been considering an SUV as my next car but I am still a Saloon man at heart.

It might be a good move on Lexus to introduce a fresh new model to UK/Europe and i think they should start considering offering more engine options. e.g. most engine option from your likes of BMW 5 series, Merc E and  Audi A6 which the GS competes with have engines ranging from small 1.8, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 litre turbo petrol/ diesel engines. only for lexus to offer 2.5 and 3.5litre in the GS's engines whats stopping them from introducing an efficient 1.8 hybrid, 2.0 hybrid to be sold along side the 300h then a 3.0 and 4.0 to be sold along side the 450h? benefits this gives the customer is engine/performance/mpg variety also give them the freedom to spec the cars as they wish rather than spec'ing it on behalf of the customer  as they currently do.

the current design from IS all the way to LS is a bit hit and miss in my eyes...i prefer the Gen 3's looks to the current gen GS. i think it looks a bit dull and if one drives past you don't go wow thats a striking looking exec car.  

Look at where Jaguar/Land Rover were interns of global car sales 10-15 years ago compared to where they are now. I think the new offerings from the XE, XF, XJ, F PACE to the baby Range Rover's to Velar, Discovery are all striking looking vehicles which has translated in high demand of Jaguars in USA and China these were markets they struggled in some 10-15 years ago.  Yes Reliabilities of Jaguar/Land Rover cars are questionable but i will overlook it and buy an XJ-L 5.0 today if in the position.. what a beauty... I think Lexus needs to revamp the designs and hopefully the ES is a start. 

I do love and prefer Lexus to other exec cars and will still be back in another GS one day but non German brands like Jaguar/Land Rover are looking very tempting to me these days and i might just have an affair with one.. 

30 minutes ago, igotthechronicbythetree said:

 If its luxury and refinement, the IS250 walks all over the Accord. This is coming from a current IS250 owner and a 2 year CL9 owner.


 

 

neither do i want to turn this into a debate but I have disagree again and this is coming from a 5 year lexus owner 3 years IS300, 2 years GS430 V8. and i can tell you the Lexus IS250 I drove is no more luxurious, held together and refined at cruising speeds than the CL9 where 'majority' of driving is done and the CL9 is now coming up to almost 1.5 years in my ownership which is long enough to draw a comparison.. as you say lets not make a big deal out of this.. they both nice cars in their own right.

On 23/12/2017 at 11:55 AM, igotthechronicbythetree said:

The IS300 in my opinion isn't comparable to an Accord.

If that's your comparison, then the CL9 Accord is the better car on the whole (IMO of course)

Against a IS250, not a fair comparison. Think apples and oranges.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
 

mmmh i would have to disagree with you....all three cars 250, 300 and CL9 are marketed and sold as entry level compact sport saloons so can be lumped into the same basket..dont get me wrong the 300 comes into its own in a straight line its just Lexus setup the handling a bit wrong in that it felt soft when cornering had it WIM'd twice still didnt make a difference  i do recall another member on here by the name Toffee_pie who had the 2.4 CL9 Accord and switched to IS250 and also confirmed in a thread the CL9 was a better car he sold it and got a 3.0 Legacy Subaru...  Enjoy the 250 nice cars all the same...