Autoexpress Drivers Survey - Is Rated Top.

[ganzoom]

Given it's the first time ever we've had two brand new cars on the driveway, I took a quick look at one of those 'best car surveys' most magazine produce annually...

Turns out both cars are in the top 10 (Lexus IS and Nissan Leaf), which is re-asssuring because it shows its not just me going mad :

It's also good to see that though clearly some of the cars in the top 10 are 'premium' brands, most of the top 10 is made up of reasonablly priced cars. Goes to show it really is hard to buy a bad car these days, what every your price bracket. I did notice the only 2 mass-market totally electric cars have made it into the top 10, despite them been 1st generation product....It looks like people who own electric cars really like them.

I do note in the AutoExpress blurb about the IS, they still have a dig at the Lexus:

"while even a slightly fiddly joystick-operated infotainment system can’t detract from how owners feel about the in-car technology."

These car journalist really need to except the fact other brands can also make small compact excutives as as well/if not better than BMW/Audi/Mercedes....Maybe they need to go to some of mass journalist school to get their German bias washed out of them

1. Lexus IS Mk3

2. Skoda Yeti

3. Hyundai i10 Mk2

4. SEAT Leon Mk3

5. Renault ZOE

6. Lexus NX

7. Jaguar XJ Mk4

8. Nissan Leaf

9. MINI Mk3

10. MG3

[Scoops]

The German enthusiasm isn't going away soon unfortunately. Good job we have brains to make our own decisions!! We would all be driving around in the same car otherwise!!

[capese21]

To be fair to Auto Express they also reported last year that German cars have the most engine faults!!

I take most of what the motoring press print with a pinch of salt though.

I bought my Lexus is300H Fsport because I liked the way it looked drove and cost & didn't particularly want a diesel.

I walked past a Jag today just as it started up and boy what a racket it really did sound like a cement mixer cranking up.

Then a CT wafted past in total silence.

Ed

[michaelH]

Lexus really dominate the ratings this year, especially the IS mark 3. The mk 2 IS250 auto would also have done much better over the years if had not been rated together with the IS220D.

[toffee_pie]

true!

Its not a very exciting car to drive, the 250 but its gets you from A to B in about as pleasurable a experience you can imagine, and all the toys help.

My girlfriend fell asleep in it several times, just nodded off, even while talking to her it seemed...:$

[Rabbers]

To be perfectly frank, having owned a 300h since 2013 and having clocked a highly

pleasurable 35K km in it, my reaction to surveys and reviews that tell me that the car

is a good one and satisfying to own is one of boredom. In fact, I'll go even further

and say that, after a brief moment of narcissistic contentment upon reading that I

made a good choice when I bought the car, I find such opinions patronising.

[capese21]

I agree. The Driver Power survey is though the opinions of actual owners like us rather than a journalist who bases everything on a blast around a test track. The results show that what drivers want from a car is not necessarily what the motoring press promote.

[rayaans]

The survey doesnt mean anything in reality. The whole matrix they use is flawed. 61k is not really a huge amount of people especially considering how many cars are on sale and have been since 2003 (you can show your views on any car from 53 plate onwards).

Also its worth mentioning that its not externally valid as I the age group of the people taking part in these surveys tend to be the older generation meaning its not actually representative of the population as a whole. This perhaps explains why Lexus, Skoda, Jaguar seems to prevail in the surveys, its because the older folk usually have more time on their hands to actually take part in the survey in the first place.

Another thing to mention is that most people get given the cars they drive in the form of company cars, for example the Ford Mondeo. It sells like hotcakes but its not there as people tend to "revenge" vote and say its rubbish for every category.

I mean if you look at the top 10, there's some pretty crappy cars there. Skoda Yeti and MG3? Jaguar XJ? (ok this one isnt crappy but the S-class is hard to beat IMO)

[capese21]

Do you know for sure it is the older generation who vote?

The people who vote are more likely to be private buyers opposed to sales reps in a Mondeo imho.

One youngish guy featured said he loved his 4 series which he only used for pleasure as he had a company car.

Maybe Mondeos are not that good enough to make the top 200??

Of course there are lies, dam lies & statistics!!

[rayaans]

Do you know for sure it is the older generation who vote?

The people who vote are more likely to be private buyers opposed to sales reps in a Mondeo imho.

One youngish guy featured said he loved his 4 series which he only used for pleasure as he had a company car.

Maybe Mondeos are not that good enough to make the top 200??

Of course there are lies, dam lies & statistics!!

Nope but id bet on it that the median age of people taking part in the survey is 40 or over.

The whole point is that the people who tend to vote are the ones who feel let down by the reviews of their car. Eg the owners of the whole Lexus range. There's barely any volume sellers up there, cars such as the Fiesta would obliterate owner reviews if all owners took part as the car itself is very good indeed and I doubt many would complain about it

[Rabbers]

Rayaan:

You are right about the tendency of participants in consumer-satisfaction surveys of premium products, whatever

these may be, to vindicate or justify their original purchase decision by means of positive responses. Conversely,

customers for lower-priced products tend towards indifference and are less likely to participate in surveys at all.

[capese21]

There's barely any volume sellers up there,

There is load's of volume sellers in the top 200 , Fiesta Focus Golf etc They didn't get a high enough rating to be in the top 10.

There has to be a minimum number of votes to be included.

[Ian J. Parsley]

I'm definitely biased, but the fact is I took part (and am, ahem, below average age!), and the fact is I am unsurprised the Lexus IS won. Can anyone think of a better car to buy at comparable cost?

Indeed, I was only surprised the running costs rated so low - I daresay they are not quite so good for private buyers!

The "reviews", as mentioned above, take account only of a blast around a test track and of a pre-existing "belief system" on behalf of motor journos that German must be king. Take that belief system out, add in the actual ownership experience, and the outcome is somewhat different of course.

[rayaans]

I'm definitely biased, but the fact is I took part (and am, ahem, below average age!), and the fact is I am unsurprised the Lexus IS won. Can anyone think of a better car to buy at comparable cost?

Indeed, I was only surprised the running costs rated so low - I daresay they are not quite so good for private buyers!

The "reviews", as mentioned above, take account only of a blast around a test track and of a pre-existing "belief system" on behalf of motor journos that German must be king. Take that belief system out, add in the actual ownership experience, and the outcome is somewhat different of course.

There's barely any volume sellers up there,

There is load's of volume sellers in the top 200 , Fiesta Focus Golf etc They didn't get a high enough rating to be in the top 10.

There has to be a minimum number of votes to be included.

My point is, Lexus seems to do well in these surveys because owners "need" to prove that their cars are better than what the journalists say, hence, sometimes it appears that they over exaggerate the good aspects while not mentioning the cons of the vehicle. Therefore, this leads to very substantial bias.

Again, same principle can be used with Mondeo's. Lets say you got one as a company car and you wanted something else. Some people will get their revenge by saying its rubbish in every category bringing its score down. again causing bias.

Also, how did they work out that the NX is very reliable? Its barely been out a few months. Its because owners are simply writing this down as an assumption.

The surveys are flawed as it leads to a set group which participate and we have no idea if what they write down is fact or fiction.

[capese21]

Most people don't lie though and even if one two did the results would be the same.

The NX scored well in all categories not just perceived reliability.

Surveys are not flawless but also not complete b.s. either.

The Ford Mondeo is not included because not enough entries for it which of course doesn't mean it is a bad car.

imho the survey attracts people who finance their own cars rather than company fleets which I suspect is the bulk of Mondeo sales.

I am though making assumptions as we all are.

Ed

The IS300 Mk3 scored particularly high for Ease of Driving, Build Quality & Reliability. I as an owner would agree.

[rayaans]

Most people don't lie though and even if one two did the results would be the same.

The NX scored well in all categories not just perceived reliability.

Surveys are not flawless but also not complete b.s. either.

The Ford Mondeo is not included because not enough entries for it which of course doesn't mean it is a bad car.

imho the survey attracts people who finance their own cars rather than company fleets which I suspect is the bulk of Mondeo sales.

I am though making assumptions as we all are.

Ed

The IS300 Mk3 scored particularly high for Ease of Driving, Build Quality & Reliability. I as an owner would agree.

I find it very hard to believe that not enough people with a Mondeo voted :P

I believe that some of the bad points of the IS were not included when the owners gave their views in the survey. It scored quite high for infotainment - I dont understand as the infotainment is average at best.

Also, for the in-car tech Seat Leon came top? WTF lol, at this point in time it'd either have to be Tesla or the S-class, no contest. Land rover discovery had the best ride quality? urm, no it doesnt.

Saying something is the "best" means it beats every other car, thats certainly not true for half of the categories on there and some of the cars in the top 10 are frankly awful.

[Gary T]

The Mondeo Mk IV is in the list at 85.66%, one place above the Porsche Boxter.

You always have to view these surveys with a pinch of salt as they always seem to feature the more 'unusual' cars near the top but overall they give a rough guide to the cars that owners appreciate.

[LexusCT200H]

The survey doesnt mean anything in reality. The whole matrix they use is flawed. 61k is not really a huge amount of people especially considering how many cars are on sale and have been since 2003 (you can show your views on any car from 53 plate onwards).

Also its worth mentioning that its not externally valid as I the age group of the people taking part in these surveys tend to be the older generation meaning its not actually representative of the population as a whole. This perhaps explains why Lexus, Skoda, Jaguar seems to prevail in the surveys, its because the older folk usually have more time on their hands to actually take part in the survey in the first place.

Another thing to mention is that most people get given the cars they drive in the form of company cars, for example the Ford Mondeo. It sells like hotcakes but its not there as people tend to "revenge" vote and say its rubbish for every category.

I mean if you look at the top 10, there's some pretty crappy cars there. Skoda Yeti and MG3? Jaguar XJ? (ok this one isnt crappy but the S-class is hard to beat IMO)

Im 16 and I wrote about 3 cars for that survey...

[ColinBarber]

Also, for the in-car tech Seat Leon came top? WTF lol, at this point in time it'd either have to be Tesla or the S-class, no contest. Land rover discovery had the best ride quality? urm, no it doesnt.

People vote based against an expected level of performance for that category of vehicle, and associated price bracket. Obviously it is only based on a persons frame of reference, I doubt many Leon owners have experienced a Tesla Model S to compare it to.

[rayaans]

The survey doesnt mean anything in reality. The whole matrix they use is flawed. 61k is not really a huge amount of people especially considering how many cars are on sale and have been since 2003 (you can show your views on any car from 53 plate onwards).

Also its worth mentioning that its not externally valid as I the age group of the people taking part in these surveys tend to be the older generation meaning its not actually representative of the population as a whole. This perhaps explains why Lexus, Skoda, Jaguar seems to prevail in the surveys, its because the older folk usually have more time on their hands to actually take part in the survey in the first place.

Another thing to mention is that most people get given the cars they drive in the form of company cars, for example the Ford Mondeo. It sells like hotcakes but its not there as people tend to "revenge" vote and say its rubbish for every category.

I mean if you look at the top 10, there's some pretty crappy cars there. Skoda Yeti and MG3? Jaguar XJ? (ok this one isnt crappy but the S-class is hard to beat IMO)

Im 16 and I wrote about 3 cars for that survey...

16? You must be in the minority. I dont think many people under the age of 30 would have even bothered. Also, 61k people and lets just include the top 200 cars and you have 305 votes for 1 car. The volume sellers will have taken most of the votes, meaning there would have only been a handful of Lexus IS300h owners, possibly 50 who voted? That is seriously unrepresentative of the whole population.

Also, for the in-car tech Seat Leon came top? WTF lol, at this point in time it'd either have to be Tesla or the S-class, no contest. Land rover discovery had the best ride quality? urm, no it doesnt.

People vote based against an expected level of performance for that category of vehicle, and associated price bracket. Obviously it is only based on a persons frame of reference, I doubt many Leon owners have experienced a Tesla Model S to compare it to.

Exactly, its very subjective. 20 years ago I would have thought my Ford Fiesta was one of the best cars on the road as I hadnt experienced anything else, its a subjective matter. Things like build quality are quite subjective too, some people are very picky and associate rattles with build quality problems. Others dont find it a huge issue. I think in terms of price bracket, the new C-class has a very nicely crafted interior. I think the IS300h should be 2nd in this regard.

Also, reliability should be worked out with extra points for how old the car is. IMO a 12 year old RX300 with 2 issues is vastly superior in terms of reliability to a 1 year old IS300h with no problems. Of course, mileage would potentially play a huge role too, a car with 100k+ miles is bound to have some problems and again, this should be included in the survey.

I am not saying the IS300h is not worthy of its position as the best overall car. I think its achieved the place it deserves, my issue is with the survey itself

[ganzoom]

No survey is bias free, even scientific objective studies that cost millions to carry out, designed by some of the best academics in the world is prone to bias...This was a survey of user perceptions, so shows how owners perceive their ownership experience to their expectations...which is why the mixture of cars in the top 10 is so different.

Personally I find it good to see how different owners perceive their cars at different price points....For those dismissing wondering how the MG3 made it to the top 10...have a look at MG's website.

For under £10K you get, parking sensor, LED fog lights, climate control, DAB, sat nav with smart phone integration, leather steering wheel, and if you pay another £500 you get partial leather....and it doesn't look half bad. Lexus essentially charged me £10K just for memory leather seats, a fancy stereo, and some sensors

You can also customise one like a mini....Even putting on a custom paint job it the total cost was a extravert £10500...

Or for £10900 you can have a Dacia Sandero....I know which I rather have for £10K :)

[toffee_pie]

all of this stuff is meh

Far more mondeos in the UK than a lexus of any type so of course every mondo owner thinks their car is better than a GT-R so it will fill up the survey in no time, thats how Seats and whatever are so high.

anyway, all we know is Lexus make pretty fine cars and thats all the matters.

[capese21]

The Mondeo didn't make the top 100 (which is why I thought it wasn't included) so owners are not exactly bowled over by them. But who decides to buy themselves a new car & decides on a Mondeo? Someone who has no interest in cars imho.

[rayaans]

Ive never even seen an MG3 on the road lol! Rarer than a GT-R.

The thing is, usually people tend to go upwards in terms of cars. They'll usually spend more each time they buy a new car until it plateau's at some point. Hence, most cars are usually better than the last so it gives hugely unrepresentative figures.

Gang, you're point on bias is spot on. Bias is a huge issue, especially in the clinical trials I had some experience in undertaking. The amount of work that went into preventing bias was impressive, even tiny details like slightly see-through envelopes could make a huge difference in terms of allocation concealment!

Surveys are usually the most unreliable out of all methods, you have to take into account how many people which actually participate, what their motives for participating are (we usually give incentives such as £10 vouchers to get them to participate), the size of the sample (in this case, very small), the questions may be leading etc etc

From a psychological point of view, the major bias here is going to be "Buyers" Stockholm Syndrome whereby the buyer buys an expensive item and overlooks its flaws to justify the purchase. It could easily lead to a buyer wanting to prove that their purchase is justifiable by taking part in a survey and coming in the top 10 for example. It leads to people thinking that there is no other purchase in the same price bracket that could be better. Hence, if someone says "why did you buy a Ford Mondeo", they'll go onto defend their purchase, while using "sour grape" arguments against other vehicles.

By sour grape arguments i refer to The Fox and the Grapes where the fox claims the grapes were sour because he couldnt get them :)

[capese21]

It is a survey of people who drive a certain car and there opinion of it. If only 50 people or less completed the survey for the Lexus is300 and all rated it highly for seat comfort & reliability then I cannot see how that is meaningless well not completely meaningless.

If 500 people completed the survey for the Discovery and all rated it poorly for reliability that to isn't meaningless.

No where does it give the breakdown of how many entries each car received but there is a minimum.

I cannot say if the entries are true or biased apart from the one for the IS300 as I have one and generally agree with the ratings for it.

The next focus of the Auto Express (we want to sell more magazines) survey is the cars which scored the lowest. Probably a bit more relevant bs.

Ed