Alternative To Is300H

[Exdee]

Well guys, I started researching the IS300h last night as I fancy a change and stumbled across the Mercedes c350e. It really has got my attention:

2 Litre turbo petrol with an electric motor

275bhp and maximum torque is 600Nm

0-60 is something like 5.7 secs

Air suspension is standard

High customization unlike Lexus

The best bit is that it is a plug-in hybrid and can do 18 miles on batteries alone. Re-charging the car will take 2 hours using the normal Mains and you can operate the aircon/heating before entering the car like Tesla.

I do a 10 mile round trip in London everyday and theoretically it fits the bill perfectly for me. I could potentially be on batteries most of the time. I hardly do motorway miles so that doesn't matter.

It's coming out in June and I am a bit excited to test drive it. Is anybody else aware of this and has contemplated this over the IS300h?

[para999]

it appears from the write up that this car is not like the lexus is300h as it doesn't charge the batteries as you drive along,except with re-cuperated braking although the recharge time is very low compared to others you still have to plug it in and with a range of only 18 miles on Battery it would only be suitable for town/city driving for the economy point of view. if you do a lot of country driving the benefits of the electric side would not be a buying point, to my way of thinking, it would be the range on electric power.

interesting to note is that pricing and fuel consumption figures will only be released nearer the date of them appearing in the showrooms.

[royoftherovers]

Jami,

You are asking the wrong Forum!

Try MB Owners Forum and they will give you chapter and verse re the MB Hybrids.

Good luck.

Regards

John

[Exdee]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/09/20140915-s500phev.html

This link contains info re the S500 Plug-in hybrid and tells you about the different modes and such. I believe the C class will be the same.

As per my understanding the Lexus technology relies on regenerative braking alone to charge the batteries. It can do a mile or so on Battery alone in EV mode as long as the speed is kept under 25MPH.

The Merc has regenerative braking too (which they are calling electric boosting), the plug-in option and the option to use the engine to charge the Battery. I've also read that it is not limited to a low speed like the Lexus in Battery only mode.

Pricing will be around 40K for the base Premium Plus which is the equivalent of a Premium IS300h.

I guess we'll have to wait and see once it's launched. On paper it definitely looks like a decent alternative. I hope Lexus see it as a threat and react to it. Their version of Hybrid technology hasn't really evolved since the Prius which is a 15 year old technology as of now.

[Exdee]

Jami,

You are asking the wrong Forum!

Try MB Owners Forum and they will give you chapter and verse re the MB Hybrids.

Good luck.

Regards

John

Hi John,

The motive was to create awareness. I know the MB forums will probably be more resourceful as far as the technical side is concerned.

Cheers

[para999]

exdee your facts are not correct re the lexus i.s300h. firstly the hybrid system is completely self contained with no lead or power in socket.the system is similar to the Toyota prius but more refined in the lexus.it will do far more than 1 mile on a charge as the Battery is being continuously charged and E.V mode can be maintained upto approximately 35-40 mph depending on driving style and mode selection.

it has an E.V mode button on the centre consul to lock it in E.V mode but I havn't tried it to see at what speed it switches to petrol.

[Exdee]

Right then, I found this: http://blog.lexus.co.uk/how-does-lexus-hybrid-drive-work/

IS300h - The engine does charge the Battery when it's running and then obviously you've got regenerative braking. You are right there so it uses two ways to charge the Battery.

I think you've misunderstood my comment re plug-in charger. I was trying to say that this an additional feature that the Merc has.

We have a CT200h in the household which I drive occasionally. I can do about a mile in it if I stick it into EV mode but the engine kicks in if I go around 25-28MPH.

The issue obviously is that the Battery may not be fully charged and there is no way to charge it to its full capacity manually on the Lexus.

[Steve44]

The IS300h can travel up to 50mph on ev with careful application of the throttle and favourable conditions, but only for a mile or so before the Battery is depleted.

The C350e is on my radar as a potential replacement, but like for like specification, it is more expensive and probably no more economical either. I'd also question whether the refinement is up to par and also how the integration of the engine and hybrid powertrain works, it's pretty seemless in the Lexus. The C300 BlueTec Hybrid diesel version is less refined and more prone to using the engine over the elec motor. Though it is much faster. It is even more of an electric assist engine than the Lexus.

Each to their own really, have you driven a IS300h yet?

[rayaans]

Well guys, I started researching the IS300h last night as I fancy a change and stumbled across the Mercedes c350e. It really has got my attention:

2 Litre turbo petrol with an electric motor

275bhp and maximum torque is 600Nm

0-60 is something like 5.7 secs

Air suspension is standard

High customization unlike Lexus

The best bit is that it is a plug-in hybrid and can do 18 miles on batteries alone. Re-charging the car will take 2 hours using the normal Mains and you can operate the aircon/heating before entering the car like Tesla.

I do a 10 mile round trip in London everyday and theoretically it fits the bill perfectly for me. I could potentially be on batteries most of the time. I hardly do motorway miles so that doesn't matter.

It's coming out in June and I am a bit excited to test drive it. Is anybody else aware of this and has contemplated this over the IS300h?

A few things id like to mention:

1) What do you mean by highly customizable? The C350e is only available in Sport trim so actually is not customizable at all. Buyers who are interested in the IS300h F-Sport wont be looking at the Sport Merc C-class as it doesnt hold a candle to the IS F-Sport looks. Its not available in AMG-Line spec and looks pretty "average" in sport spec

2) 7-speed gearbox - its not exactly very smooth. It wont match the IS300h for smoothness.

3) Combined figures of 134.5mpg - id be surprised if it managed to get 50mpg in the real world.

4) Ive driven the C200 AMG Line and the engine isnt exactly very refined. Its too loud and represents a diesel which is a bit odd in all honesty because it could have been much better. I cant imagine how noticeable that engine would be when it kicks in.

5) HOLY PRICE! £38k? Wait till you add options, itd be on £45k with ease. Now the real question is if you want to spend £45k on a car which looks like the basic version to pretty much everyone else out there.

6) I think my dealer mentioned a vibrating accelerator pedal which gets harder to press when the car switches from electric to engine mode. I dont know if he's pulling my leg but isnt that a bit annoying?

[Exdee]

The IS300h can travel up to 50mph on ev with careful application of the throttle and favourable conditions, but only for a mile or so before the battery is depleted.

The C350e is on my radar as a potential replacement, but like for like specification, it is more expensive and probably no more economical either. I'd also question whether the refinement is up to par and also how the integration of the engine and hybrid powertrain works, it's pretty seemless in the Lexus. The C300 BlueTec Hybrid diesel version is less refined and more prone to using the engine over the elec motor. Though it is much faster. It is even more of an electric assist engine than the Lexus.

Each to their own really, have you driven a IS300h yet?

Fair comments.

I have driven the IS300h multiple times, mainly in Germany where the roads are more forgiving. I quite like the car except for the rear diffuser on the hybrid models. Not to mention the exhausts on the IS250 actually look even worse to me.

[Exdee]

Well guys, I started researching the IS300h last night as I fancy a change and stumbled across the Mercedes c350e. It really has got my attention:

2 Litre turbo petrol with an electric motor

275bhp and maximum torque is 600Nm

0-60 is something like 5.7 secs

Air suspension is standard

High customization unlike Lexus

The best bit is that it is a plug-in hybrid and can do 18 miles on batteries alone. Re-charging the car will take 2 hours using the normal Mains and you can operate the aircon/heating before entering the car like Tesla.

I do a 10 mile round trip in London everyday and theoretically it fits the bill perfectly for me. I could potentially be on batteries most of the time. I hardly do motorway miles so that doesn't matter.

It's coming out in June and I am a bit excited to test drive it. Is anybody else aware of this and has contemplated this over the IS300h?

A few things id like to mention:

1) What do you mean by highly customizable? The C350e is only available in Sport trim so actually is not customizable at all. Buyers who are interested in the IS300h F-Sport wont be looking at the Sport Merc C-class as it doesnt hold a candle to the IS F-Sport looks. Its not available in AMG-Line spec and looks pretty "average" in sport spec

2) 7-speed gearbox - its not exactly very smooth. It wont match the IS300h for smoothness.

3) Combined figures of 134.5mpg - id be surprised if it managed to get 50mpg in the real world.

4) Ive driven the C200 AMG Line and the engine isnt exactly very refined. Its too loud and represents a diesel which is a bit odd in all honesty because it could have been much better. I cant imagine how noticeable that engine would be when it kicks in.

5) HOLY PRICE! £38k? Wait till you add options, itd be on £45k with ease. Now the real question is if you want to spend £45k on a car which looks like the basic version to pretty much everyone else out there.

6) I think my dealer mentioned a vibrating accelerator pedal which gets harder to press when the car switches from electric to engine mode. I dont know if he's pulling my leg but isnt that a bit annoying?

1) Things like Headsup display, panoramic sunroof, motorised boot, 360 camera etc.

2) I agree, CVT will probably be smoother.

3) I am primarily interested in the Battery only operation of the vehicle. it would be interesting to see how cheaper charging is in comparison to fuel though.

4) I don't think Mercedes will ever have an engine as refined as Lexus do. They'll need to do a heck of a job at insulating the cabin instead.

5) The technology actually interests me more than the car itself which will find its way to the rest of the lineup eventually. I would prefer a similar version of the CLS.

6) Feedback from the peddal; i think it's actually better than looking down to see how 'green' you are driving. Intrusive to some I agree.

The fact that it doesn't come in the AMG trim would be a deal-breaker but I hope it will change with other models. The S500 Plugin hybrid for instance comes in AMG Trim as well.

[rayaans]

Well guys, I started researching the IS300h last night as I fancy a change and stumbled across the Mercedes c350e. It really has got my attention:

2 Litre turbo petrol with an electric motor

275bhp and maximum torque is 600Nm

0-60 is something like 5.7 secs

Air suspension is standard

High customization unlike Lexus

The best bit is that it is a plug-in hybrid and can do 18 miles on batteries alone. Re-charging the car will take 2 hours using the normal Mains and you can operate the aircon/heating before entering the car like Tesla.

I do a 10 mile round trip in London everyday and theoretically it fits the bill perfectly for me. I could potentially be on batteries most of the time. I hardly do motorway miles so that doesn't matter.

It's coming out in June and I am a bit excited to test drive it. Is anybody else aware of this and has contemplated this over the IS300h?

A few things id like to mention:

1) What do you mean by highly customizable? The C350e is only available in Sport trim so actually is not customizable at all. Buyers who are interested in the IS300h F-Sport wont be looking at the Sport Merc C-class as it doesnt hold a candle to the IS F-Sport looks. Its not available in AMG-Line spec and looks pretty "average" in sport spec

2) 7-speed gearbox - its not exactly very smooth. It wont match the IS300h for smoothness.

3) Combined figures of 134.5mpg - id be surprised if it managed to get 50mpg in the real world.

4) Ive driven the C200 AMG Line and the engine isnt exactly very refined. Its too loud and represents a diesel which is a bit odd in all honesty because it could have been much better. I cant imagine how noticeable that engine would be when it kicks in.

5) HOLY PRICE! £38k? Wait till you add options, itd be on £45k with ease. Now the real question is if you want to spend £45k on a car which looks like the basic version to pretty much everyone else out there.

6) I think my dealer mentioned a vibrating accelerator pedal which gets harder to press when the car switches from electric to engine mode. I dont know if he's pulling my leg but isnt that a bit annoying?

1) Things like Headsup display, panoramic sunroof, motorised boot, 360 camera etc.

2) I agree, CVT will probably be smoother.

3) I am primarily interested in the Battery only operation of the vehicle. it would be interesting to see how cheaper charging is in comparison to fuel though.

4) I don't think Mercedes will ever have an engine as refined as Lexus do. They'll need to do a heck of a job at insulating the cabin instead.

5) The technology actually interests me more than the car itself which will find its way to the rest of the lineup eventually. I would prefer a similar version of the CLS.

6) Feedback from the peddal; i think it's actually better than looking down to see how 'green' you are driving. Intrusive to some I agree.

The fact that it doesn't come in the AMG trim would be a deal-breaker but I hope it will change with other models. The S500 Plugin hybrid for instance comes in AMG Trim as well.

The initial cost itself is insane! I just built one to the spec Id want even though Id never buy it as its not in AMG Line trim. The Sport to my spec in diamond white, black artico leather, HUD, 18" wheels and privacy glass is £43k. That includes the £5k grant :o

Id rather take the IS200t when its out and screw the economy lol

[Exdee]

Mercedes generally is more expensive then all its competitors. The base price of the c350e is higher than the IS300h but i suspect that the difference in price will come down to £3Kish when looking at fully loaded ones.

It's nice to see the hybrid side of the car scene get a little hot. It will be interesting to see how BMW and Audi respond.

Apart from that we've got Tesla too coming with a vehicle in the small luxury car segment.

Overall I think we got a few intriguing years ahead of us in the Automotive World.

[rayaans]

I'll have to see the Mercedes C350e option list and standard equipment but I think certain things can't be optioned on the Mercedes such as adaptive cruise control. Not too sure, will check later

[rayaans]

I'll have to see the Mercedes C350e option list and standard equipment but I think certain things can't be optioned on the Mercedes such as adaptive cruise control. Not too sure, will check later

[ganzoom]

Firstly I think your brave to come on a forum full of IS300H owners, and suggesting the C350 plug in might be a better choice ;)..

In the last 1 months I've swapped both of our family cars, one a 380bhp BMW 335i the other a 2.2 TDI Civic, to a full electric Leaf and IS300H hybrid. And done lots of research on Tesla....

Having now driven the IS300H for over 1000 miles and the electric Leaf for 260miles...My personal conclusion that the Electric Motor is simple better than the Internal combustion engine in every way. Quieter, much much better power delivery, better efficiency, more reliable...it's an almost endless list.

So how does the Battery and energy consumption of the cars mentioned work out?

The IS300H only has a 1.9 kWh Battery, that compares to 6.2 kWh Battery on the C350e. My Leaf has a 24 kWh Battery, and the base spec version of the Tesla S has 70 kWh

Interms of how far a car a can go on EV power alone, the Leaf averages 4-4.5 miles kWh, and the Tesla 3-3.5 miles per kWh. If Merceds is quoting 18 miles on electric mode, real life range wouldn't be more than 15 miles, which translates to 2.5 miles per kWh, which is probably roughly what the Lexus IS300H can manage, 4-5 miles.

According to WiKi 1 gallon of petrol has about 33.7 kWh of energy...So even an efficient ICE car that is doing 50 mpg is only achieving 1.5 miles per kWh.

So interms of energy efficiency EV > Hybrid > ICE, no great surprises. BUT an efficient EV (Leaf) is THREE times more efficient than an efficient ICE.

What about costs:

A petrol car doing 50 mpg, with fuel at of 110/L, costs 45p to go 4.5 miles. The most expensive electricity traiff is 15p per kWH, with cheap economy 7 night tariffs at 6p per kWH

As far as am aware, nearly ALL Battery and plug-in EVs use brake regeneration to harvest electricity. My Leaf regenerates a significant amount of power through brakes. Lexus release no information about the efficiency of the hybrid regeneration, but I bet it's similar.



So a Battery EV or plug in EV that gets its electricity from the grid is both more efficient and cheaper to run than any kind of conventional hybrid or ICE.

Power delivery:

This is where a pure Battery EV annihilates ALL ICE and hybrid cars. I really do mean annihilate. I've owned and driven the best performance ICE cars on the road.....believe me when I say my humble 109 BHP, Leaf, with no sporting credential has a more responsive, and refined drive train than my previous 380bhp petrol town turbo BMW. The Leaf is just MORE FUN to drive.

The IS300H is OK interms of drive train performance, pretty much on par with a 320d, but much smoother and quieter....Compared to the Leaf....There's no contest, in the weeks leading to me buying the Leaf, IS300H had covered 1000 miles in 30 days....Since getting the Leaf, the IS300H has spent most of its time on the driveway.

Note I'm NOT talking about 0-60 times here. The Leaf is THREE times slower to 60 than my old BMW, but the driving experience delivered by the pure EV drivetrain is just better, despite been slower!!

That isn't to say EVs cannot be Outight fast...The top spec Tesla S has 691 BHP. To put that into perspective Lewis Hamilton's Mercedes F1 car last year only produced about 750 BHP.....The 5+2 seater, 2000kg Tesla S will out drag a McLarean F1 to 60 mph!!!

Range and charging:

As far as am concerned the Electric drive train is more economical, faster, quieter, more fun, and reliable than any ICE or hybrid set up. We're not talking about a 5-10% difference here, we are at talking about multiples of 100%.

The draw backs to EVs is Battery range and charging.

My Leaf will do 80-90 miles a charge on its 24 kWh Battery, a Tesla S 250-300 miles on its 85kWh Battery. FREE rapid/Superchargers can recharge from 0-80% in 25-30 minutes on both cars. I cannot remember the last time I drove more than 300 miles without stopping at the services. And there are now rapid chargers at nearly every motorway service station!!



So unless your covering 300 miles round trips on a regular basis, a Tesla S has more than enough range.

Cost:

The real barrier to EV adoption I believe is cost. On launch the Leaf had a list price of £30k, this has now fallen, and Nissan are are doing significant discounts on them.

The Tesla has actually always been a bit of a bargain....A 550bhp Jag XJ supersport starts at £93k, 590bhp AMG S class £120k, the 691bhp Tesla £79k....and the Tesla will do things even the S class cannot offer..Want to get out of the car outside your front door, than leave it to park it self, and come morning have the car greet you as walk out of your door...Tesla are offering it!!!



If you have £40k to spend on a hybrid Mercedes you should be able to access another £15k without too much difficulty....and this is what £55k will get you from Tesla



The standard kit list is longer than your arm. I've already asked if my wife wants to swap her Lexus for one, but she's not keen purely based on its size (Think Jag XJ size).

Luckily for my bank account the Tesla 70D was announced a week after I signed and collected the Leaf, otherwise I may well be telling eveyone here about how I've bought a Tesla. So instead when the PCP deal on my Leaf runs out I'll be ordering one....It's going to be the long 18 months for me to sit on my hands :)

I have no brand loyalty, I buy my cars based on merit and how well they meet my needs. Though the Tesla S is £15k more than what I want to spend on my next car it's a price difference I'm willing to put up with in return for the benefits offered....The likes of BMW/Audi/Lexus need to react to Tesla NOW, because right now none can offer a product close to what the model S can deliver at any price point....Can you imagine the demand for Tesla if they can deliver a £30k 3 series seized EV with a ture 200 miles range...Well that's coming, 2017/18.

Forget almost any current car from any manufacturer, the future of motoring is here...and you can buy it right now!!

I leave you with a quick video of the Tesla P85D which has ConsumerReports (Think Which magazine) has just bought to do a longterm test on...I think you can tell what they'll going to say about the car already...Bare in mind the older, slower, less developed Tesla P85 scored 99/100 and won the best car category for 2013/14....I think they are going to have to invent a whole new category for this car :)

[Roscobbc]

Very, very good analysis Gang - my 'dailies' are always company vehicles - currently there is no way that a Tesla would financially work for me (and I am 'locked-in' to the IH300H for another 30 months) - operationally, yes a Tesla would work as I travel mainly within the M25. The 'real' game changer will be when Tesla offer their 'promised' £30K car - I can see many, many company car users changing to this. I still have concerns about no's of Tesla's Supercharger stations - can't see them being anything like the size of Tesla's depicted images - the logistics of specific Supercharger stations will be difficult (in terms of no's of charging bays per station) - currently there is one in Bluewater, Canning Town, Heathrow, Brent Cross and Canary Wharf (Portland Square is closed due to the recent hotel fire) I have just noticed that there is now one at Northampton (id that new?) one at Birmingham, Barnsley and Leeds - the Edinburgh one is a 'stretch) There are none yet on the South Coast, East Anglia and West Wales. Perhaps I'm being overly sceptical about this - looking at the number of Supercharger stations in central Europe!

[para999]

from gang's post it looks like you can add another to your list at Leicester forest east services.there are also charging points at membury services m4 east bound and reading services m4,I assume these must be quick charge points but not sure if these qualify as supercharger stations. ( would think as at motorway services they would be)

[royoftherovers]

Gang,

That was an outstanding reply and I award you a Double First !

I`ve read Stephen Hawkings "Brief History of Time " and "The Universe in a Nutshell" and have been left utterly confused by both. I thought I knew a lot about motoring, but having read and re-read your "Research Essay", I am more than impressed.

All I ask is that when you own the Tesla, I be given the opportunity to be one of your passengers!!

Regards

John

[ganzoom]

Cost is still the biggest hinderance to Battery EVs, Im prepared to spend £55K+ on a car for no real reason, but I fully understand most people wouldn't want to.The biggest cost is the batteries. But Tesla reckon they can reduce Battery costs by 30% with-in the next 2-3 years...I cannot see any mass market hydrogen fuel cell powered car coming on sale by 2017, and thats before even thinking about hydrogen production/storage/transportation.

A 70kwh, 320bhp, Tesla S with 240 miles range for under £40K I suspect will be very tempting for many people. Ive already specced mine.Would anyone here choose a IS300H over this, if the price differential was less than £10K??

Teslas have some ambitious plans to ramp up Battery production, their massive Battery factory is on track, with construction already well underway, once done, Tesla will almost have a monopoly on Lithium-Ion Battery production, because their single factor will be able to produce more batteries than the entire world capacity for Battery production put together!!!....If BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus haven't put in place a counter strategy by than, I cannot see them been able to offer any EV to compete with Tesla on price or performance.

One thing is for sure, the next few years I think we'll see some major shakes ups in the motor industry. Tesla have brought the Silicon Valley approach to thinking/buissness into the car industry and showing the world just how backwards thinking/stagnant most major car manufactures are, and I for one love it :)

[rayaans]

Actually the Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car is being released September 2015 in the UK and Germany :) Definitely going to test drive that lol!

But the LS Hydrogen fuel cell car is coming in 2017 so we'll see how that is!

[para999]

Honda which is based in the town where I'm from have experimented with hydrogen fuel cars for some years now and their first attempt was a success except for one very important fact. the Honda factory has its own filling point but the taxi's that this system was fitted to were used for long journeys and ran out of fuel filling facilities where they were and they all had to be recovered back to the factory to be refilled at Honda's expense, a very costly mistake. they are now remaking the hydrogen powered vehicles and shell are currently installing hydrogen pumps to mention one company.i'm sure that in time they will become as commonplace as LPG cars.

[ganzoom]

So just looked up the stats for the Miria:

£63k, 300 mile range, 153 BHP, only a handful of places to get hydrogen....In what way is that better or progress compared to even the base spec Tesla 70D??

I also don't understand the obsession with wanting to go to 'fuel stations'. In the last 10 days of Leaf ownership, I've done the majority of my charging at home, when I've been asleep. We are currently shopping, and the Leaf is re-charging as I type this...

OK, if your unlucky enough to live in a flat/street with no off road parking, than your have to rely more on public charging infustructure...But I bet most people who can afford to spend £60k either a hydrogen or Battery EV will have access to off-road parking.

[rayaans]

So just looked up the stats for the Miria:

£63k, 300 mile range, 153 BHP, only a handful of places to get hydrogen....In what way is that better or progress compared to even the base spec Tesla 70D??

I also don't understand the obsession with wanting to go to 'fuel stations'. In the last 10 days of Leaf ownership, I've done the majority of my charging at home, when I've been asleep. We are currently shopping, and the Leaf is re-charging as I type this...

OK, if your unlucky enough to live in a flat/street with no off road parking, than your have to rely more on public charging infustructure...But I bet most people who can afford to spend £60k either a hydrogen or battery EV will have access to off-road parking.

Its one of the first fuel cell vehicles to come to the UK so its bound to be more expensive as its relatively new tech compared to EV's. The price will come down and EV's will be made redundant. All that needs to happen really is that all petrol stations need to take up hydrogen fuel cells and there you go, job done. No charging etc.

Id be interested to see the Mirai range and if it actually is 300 miles however. The Tesla I had for 3 days only did 200 miles, its range was supposed to be 300. Cost a bomb too £75k

[ganzoom]

Fuel cells store more energy than batteries, but storing hydrogen at 10,000 psi is no small engineering problem to overcome.

It looks like Calforina (where else) are investing $47 million in 27 hydrogen fuel stations, that's a cost of $1.2 million each....Hardly a cheap job/easy job... Where as man in a van installed a 7.4 kWh charger (upgradable to 22 kWh) to my house in 2 hrs, with no modifications to existing wiring.

You than have to take into account how hydrogen is going to be produced in the first palace. At least with Battery EVs, governments can upscale energy generation in a planned manner.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-25/toyota-to-offer-69-000-car-as-musk-pans-fool-cells-.html/

It will be interesting to see how it develops, if it works great, but I cannot see hydrogen my self buying a hydrogen fuel cell car in the next 5-10 years. Where as I'm already using a Battery EV daily and loving it :)

Regarding the Tesla you test-drove, at £75k you would be in the Performance version. If you look up a similar spec BMW M5, AMG Merc, RS Audi, they are all in the same price bracket, and actually SLOWER than the Tesla S....and I can guarantee if you drove a M5 in a 'spirited' fashion your be lucky to see 15mpg...which will get you 270 miles range, at a cost of £95 per tank of fuel....Hence why despite the fact I could afford to buy a used £50k M5, there's simply no way I could justify running/using it as a family car.

If hydrogen fuel cells cars appear by 2025-2030, great, it'll be prefect time for me to upgrade from the Tesla :)