Unexpected Consequence Of Owing A Is300H....

[ganzoom]

So after taking ownership of our Lexus about a month ago, I quickly realised that even though I love the performance of my modified BMW 335i, I simply love the relaxed, and comfortable drive the IS300H delivers(especially EV mode). Infact Ive loved driving the IS300H so much (despite the fact it's suppose to be my wife's car), the 335i has barely done 100 miles in the last month

So the un-thinkable thought crossed my mind, why carry on paying £280/year road tax, £700/year insurance, £200-300/month on random repairs and 25mpg on the 335i when Im not even using it???

Than by coincidence I spotted some chatter on pistonheads about cheap Nissan Leaf deals.Did some quick numbers, took one out for a test drive, and 1 week later Ive sold the 335i and taken delivery of a brand new Leaf!!!

Its no looker, not all that fast (but surprisingly quick up to about 45-50 due to instant torque), clearly not as nice inside as the Lexus, and has limited range (not a issue for me though. BUT it delivers the same smooth/quite/refined driving experience of the IS300H and for very little money. This thing is cheap, I mean really,really cheap.

The deal I got was ZERO deposit (not a single penny), on PCP with interest free credit, 14,000 miles over 24 months, including electricity charges + insurance total cost of ownership over 2 years is going to be under £250/month. This actually drops to under £200/month if I take into account the free £900 electric charge point thats been installed at my house, paid for by the government EV grant.

I know people that pay half that much for Sky every months, and this thing loaded with more tech than any car ive been in before (including the IS300H). Forget reading your e-mails/txt, you can control the charge/climiate systems of this thing from your laptop/iPhone!!

My wife thought I have gone mad swapping my 3L, 380bhp, twin turbo car that could do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, for a 109bhp Leaf. I'm still 100% sure my 335i was by far the best internal combustion engine powered car I've owned ever (or ever will own), the fact I kept it longer than any of my previous cars is testimony to that fact (just under 4 years)...but technology/time moves on, and I have a plan to get back into something almost as quick. In 2 years time when the Leaf lease/pcp is up, Im going to chop it in for one of these (Haven't quite got £50K spare at the moment) ;)

So Thank You Lexus....for making me look at driving in a different way. Now get on with it and make a full EV to compete with Tesla, so that in 24 months time I can hand over a big wedge of cash to my local Lexus dealer :D

[Zotto]

I understand your opinion, as at the moment I am considering to buy a GS300h in change of my GS450h; less power but more than sudficient for daily use and same relax. I was considering also a electric car too, but I think that at the moment there is too few autonomy for long trips, letìs hope in better batteries :)

[Rabbers]

Gang:

"Unexpected Consequences" is a good title for what has got to be one of the most convoluted, albeit

interesting, pieces of thought in automotive history. I hesitate to claim that I understand your drift but,

unless I am completely off the track, you are saying that ownership of a Lexus 300h has provided you

with the motivation to replace a BMW335i with a Nissan Leaf (via an economic comparison with a SKY

subscription) to which you would have preferred a Tesla which is a car you hope Lexus will emulate and

improve upon. No doubt there is some commercial and technical logic here but my first reaction was

to commiserate with car marketing people wherever they and whoever they may be since they must

sometimes despair of getting a simple buy-my-car message across to their prospective customers!

[ganzoom]

..I hesitate to claim that I understand your drift but,

unless I am completely off the track, you are saying that ownership of a Lexus 300h has provided you

with the motivation to replace a BMW335i with a Nissan Leaf (via an economic comparison with a SKY

subscription) to which you would have preferred a Tesla which is a car you hope Lexus will emulate and

improve upon...

LoL, my wife was still convinced this whole thing was a April fools joke, and that this moroning the BMW would be back on the drive

Essentially I'm a petrolhead, hence I don't mind spending ££££ on cars, ALL IN the 335i has cost me £40K+ over 4 years...Only petrolheads can justify wasting that kind of money on a car. But the 335i was so good, the cars that I wanted to replace it with was either a F10 M5 or a XJ Supersport, you can pick up either for £30-40K second hand, so not a stupid amount of £££, but their running costs are about £1000/month. Which translates to an annual pre-tax cost of £36K on running costs alone....which regardless of your annual income is a stupid amount to waste on a car....Even I recognise that :)

So I was in a rather odd position, where I couldnt see my self ever parting with the 335i because I couldnt see anything better that I could afford to run. Given I bought the 335i before I was 30, it was depressing that the 335 would be my the peak of my car ownership experince before I even hit 35.....

Untill the Tesla S came along, which has changed the whole peformance car ownership prospect, yes it still costs £70K+ to buy, but once you bought the thing it's running costs are negliable compared to equivelant ICE cars of the same peformance.

I actually feel sorry for BMW/Audi/Merc still producing ICE hyper-saloons, because actually if anyone in a market for a M5 sits down and look at the numbers, there is no reason why you would buy a M5 over a Tesla. They both cost £70K, both have a rubbish range when driven hard, both can serve as a family car, but one costs £8 to refuel the other £100+....If you had £70K spare to spend on a hypersaloon, your be mental to buy anything but a Tesla S, which is probably why the Tesla S has been one of the top selling luxury cars in the US, pretty much pegging th S class for the top stop, and out-selling more than double what Lexus managed with the LS.

I've actually deliberatly not booked a test drive in a Tesla, because I know if I drove one, I would want one, and would probably buy it on the spot (through finance ofcourse). At least this way I'll have a chance to save up a decent cash lump sum towards the Tesla....But this whole excerise is aimed at getting me into a Tesla ASAP. The home charge I'm having installed through the goverment EV grant is actually one that works for the Tesla rather than the Leaf...So although it may appear I've gone from been a petrolhead to a enviormentalist my motivations are purely selfish :)....

The bizzar thing is Tesla don't believe in advertising, so this crazy behaviour is all self motivated....as one reviewer said 'any one how drives one of these things goes away trying to work out how they can afford one'!!

[DJP]

I'm loving this thread. I'm a petrol head too, and now can't see myself moving away from the hybrid technology.

I found Lexus purely by chance about 7 years ago when I was getting away from Merc, had had enough of Jag reliability problems etc etc etc. Saab's and others too many to mention have also sat on my drive.

Now Tesla. Know nothing about them but loved the pic posted earlier and am now very very intrigued. I also love a challenge and convincing my wife it might be worth it long term blah blah.

335i to Leaf to Tesla sounds like my kind of story. I'm off to do some research!



Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[IS200D]

Been watching Tesla for a couple of years now, as they gradually develop. I stumbled upon them when somebody buying furniture off me picked it up in his EV Rav4, it was then I discovered that the Tesla roadster existed.

Since then, they have created newer models, widening their market at the same time. As the EV market is still in its infancy, I'm happy to wait a little longer to see what happens. Toyota have since produced a newer EV Rav4 (discontinued now) so it makes sense Lexus follow suit.

[rayaans]

What happens when Lexus bring out their Hydrogen fuel cell LS then? Will Tesla go bust? lol

[DJP]

Had a quick look at the website and all looks very interesting. I'm not environmentally conscious at all, but like the fact the Lexus generates its' own 'lecky. Surely by plugging the Tesla (or the Leaf for that matter) into the socket on the wall I'm just using electricity that has been made from the fossil fuels we are suppose to be avoiding? Or am I missing something?

[rayaans]

Had a quick look at the website and all looks very interesting. I'm not environmentally conscious at all, but like the fact the Lexus generates its' own 'lecky. Surely by plugging the Tesla (or the Leaf for that matter) into the socket on the wall I'm just using electricity that has been made from the fossil fuels we are suppose to be avoiding? Or am I missing something?

Exactly right. The tesla Tesla gets nowhere near the range that its supposed to get. 200miles despite saying 300+ miles if you give it some welly. I also dont really like it - its a bit plain isn't it?

[Roscobbc]

ingThere will come a point (in exactly the same way as what happened to Prius owners in London) where a given number of people will 'shell out' for 'new technology' cars like the Tesla. The government has a habit of withdrawing 'incentives' they previously gave to car users. I wouldn't want to be in the position of purchasing a used Tesla and suddenly getting a bill for Battery replacement. Think about this - mini cab driver bought a new Prius for London use three or four years ago as then it was exempt from congestion charges. That has now been withdrawn (exepting the plug-in version) - three and four years later the car passes MOT's. Fifth year due to continuous usage the Battery finally looses most of its capacity - OK so the car can still be used and currently it will pass its MOT test as this is not part of it. Supposing HMG enforces MOT requirements to include Hybrid Battery condition as part of test (remembering that the car still receives reduced excise duty) - with Battery replacement costs of about £5K the car that may have been worth £7k or £8K will be made worthless overnight! I have heard reports of 3 year old hybrid Porsches and similar hi-end cars being released from contract hire/lease agreement being impossible to sell!

[ganzoom]

So I've done my first full day in the Leaf, amazingly I've some how covered 90 miles in the last 24hrs. Despite the fact the theoretical range of the Leaf is only 120 miles. A combination of charging over night, and a quick stop free 'rapid charge' means the I've had no hint of range anxiety :)

If I was still commuting 80-100 miles a day than the Leaf would clearly be no good, but for my current work situation the Leaf is perfect. I have to say even though it's not all that fast, the ability to access 190 lbs of torque in a instant means the Leaf actually has better throttle response than my 335i...Though clearly it's a shopping chart in comparison, interms of outright performance. However based on my experiences so far, I don't think I'll be ever buying an ICE car again!!

All of a sudden I have no interest in driving the Lexus anymore, unless its a journey that's longer than 80 miles :P.... I'm really looking forwards to the next 24 months of motoring in the Leaf, it'll be really interesting how it compares to the ICE car's I've had up till now.

With regards to Tesla, I've not seen a single bad review about the car. I really I'm not bothered about where the electricity comes from, it's the £/Performance ratio that excites me...

I think these videos speak for themselves....Remember the Tesla is a 5+2 family car, and costs the same as the equivalent BMW M5 to buy outright.

I hope the mainstream car manufactures can come up with a product to rival it, but just because the company is new doesn't mean it will not be successful....Remember back a few years ago when apple first entered the mobile phone buissness, and how dominant Nokia was back than, and where Nokia is now ;). I really don't car who build/makes my next car, as long as it can deliver similar levels of performance....The second video shows the advantage of having 4WD on an electric car, with motors been able to deploy 100% torque instantly!!

[ganzoom]

......I have heard reports of 3 year old hybrid Porsches and similar hi-end cars being released from contract hire/lease agreement being impossible to sell!

Given the IS300H is a hybrid I would have thought the whole 'The batteries will explode/run out/be-unless' argument wouldn't emerge it's head...But here are some actually facts, rather than myth :P

1: Prius batteries have lasted much better than even Toyota thought. OK the technology isn't Lithium-Ion, but the whole argument about Toyota/Lexus hybrids become worthless because of Battery issues has been proven wrong, the fact I now see more Prius Taxi's than Corolla Taxi's shows they work.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

2: The Battery technology used by Tesla has been developed via the Tesla Roadster. When it was studied by actual owners, they found the actual drop off in range was predictable and moderate, up to 100K

3: The Tesla S has the most advanced Battery management systems around. The car is still too new to work out how degradation occurs longterm, but current owners report after an initial rapid fall in capacity, the Battery than loses about 1% of charge every 30,000 miles, and at 90,000 miles Battery health is at 92-94%...Incidentally if you ran a M5 for 90,000 miles, assuming 25mpg, and £1.30/L for super-unleaded you will have spent £20K on petrol costs alone!!

4: Remember my initial post about how I wanted a M5 but running costs are about £1000/month?? The reason high performance (>400bhp+) ICE cars cost £££ to run is because they are packed full of radiators/turbos/seals/gears/pumps. The current M3 has SEVEN (7) radiators. Random parts on my 335i would break for no reason.and you wouldnt find anyone would dare to run a M5 without a BMW warranty..I would take a less than 10% drop off in Battery life over 90K on a Tesla S over a M5 running a stupidly complex ICE engine with the potential to throw a big bill any second :)

[Roscobbc]

Perhaps the car maufacturers should be making a point of publishing these figures - they are certainly impressive!

[ganzoom]

Charged up for free whilst doing some shopping and lunch with friends today. Was able to keep track of the charging status via the Iphone. Total 'refuel' costs for the first 100 miles of ownership has been £1.50 (over night charge), this compares over £20 in fuel for the same trip in my old BMW (<25mpg in city traffic)....Loving how cheap this thing is to run :D

[Scoops]

I was very interested in heading down the electric route when looking for a new car but for my commute and job, there just isn't an EV which will do they job. I don't think work would have agreed to a Model S either and even in that, the range and recharge would have been too limiting. If it fits your lifestyle however, they are certainly compelling. The same with a plug in... I looked at the A3 E-Tron which is a nice car apart from the loss of 100 litres of boot space. Problem is, if you regularly go over the 30 mile electric range regularly, the argument becomes less compelling in some respects. Where higher miles are concerned, the self contained nature of the Lexus system is very appealing.

[ganzoom]

Completely agree about the EV's only working well for certain lifestyles...Luckily for us, the Leaf fits in perfectly, with the IS300H taking up the longer trips. The cheap PCP deal on the Leaf + interest free credit + government EV grants means I should be able to make substantial cost saving in my travel costs over the next 24 months, which well than enable me to get into the EV I really want quicker, the Tesla :D

[DJP]

Completely agree about the EV's only working well for certain lifestyles...Luckily for us, the Leaf fits in perfectly, with the IS300H taking up the longer trips. The cheap PCP deal on the Leaf + interest free credit + government EV grants means I should be able to make substantial cost saving in my travel costs over the next 24 months, which well than enable me to get into the EV I really want quicker, the Tesla :D

What's the plan then? Sell the Leaf & 300?

Sent from my iPad using Lexus OC

[ganzoom]

The 300 is the wife's, she has already paid for it in full, and going to be keeping it 5 years+. Still love it, and cannot see any reason to sell it for a long time.

The Leaf is on a 24 months PCP plan, so £200/month for 24 month with no deposit up-front, than option to hand back or pay £10K to buy it....So most likely I'll just hand it back. £4800 to drive a brand new car for 2 years with virtually no additional running costs is not much cash to hand over, my old 335i will have cost about £10K more to run over 2 years.

[DJP]

Ok, so it's only the cost of the electricity to factor in. Presumably you've worked that out too?

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[ganzoom]

I’m actually just working out the costs...

Leaf is currently reporting 4 miles per kWH of electricity.
Economic 7 rates = 6.6p/kWH (My economic 7 meter is going in next week)
Leaf therefore cost 1.65p per mile to ‘re-fuel’ - not including any free charging





My 335i, assuming 25mpg (realistic mpg in urban traffic), £1.15/l = 20p per mile in fuel

Our IS300H, assuming 50 mpg, £1.15/l = 10p per mile.

So the Leaf cost 12(TWELVE) times less to refuel than the 335i, and 6(SIX) times less to refuel than even the very economical Lexus….

Insurance costs for me (33, 7 years no-calims) is £260 with Aviva, servicing is £90/year, PCP payment £200/month with no deposit....So the Leaf is very very cheap!! As I've said it was too good deal to ignore, hence why I bought one :)

I know some people on there are running the IS300H for very little money due to the government fuel allowance for cars currently at 45p/mile…With EV’s having such low running costs I’m sure there are some people who can buy afford to buy a Tesla S and have clever accountants who can help them ‘reduce’ their tax burden/claim travel costs, there may will be some people driving around in a Tesla for virtually no-overall cost to them, possibly even potential been paid to drive their £70K cars!!!.

[ColinBarber]

you pay more for electricity outside of the economy 7 period though - will you be better off switching?

Is the 4 kWh / mile what it uses in energy to run or what it is taking from the mains? The system isn't 100% efficient so the two figures aren't the same.

[ganzoom]

Done all the figures, Leaf has a 23 kWh Battery. Currently we use 5-7 kWh per day. Day time rates will be 2-3p/kWH more expensive on E7 rates, but night rates half the price.

Nissan quotes Leaf costs 2p per mile, which is probably about right. Either way it's a lot cheaper to run than even the cheapest petrol car.

But main savings are really going to come when I get the Tesla. I suspect if driven had you can drain the 85khw Battery on the Tesla in 150 miles (I know when pushed £90 of fuel in my 335i would barely last 200 miles).

Given it would otherwise take 12 days to get through 85kWH of electricity for the house, the half price electricity of E7 rates will more than offest the small increases in day time rates....But it will still be substantially cheaper than putting £90-100 of unleaded unto a M5 every 200 miles or so :)

I'm getting a home 32amp EV charger installed on Monday (Paid for by government EV grant), once that's in, I'll do a overnight charge cycle on the Leaf, and can work out some more accurate figures..

But I may just pop by the Nissan dealer for some coffee/newspaper/biscuit on Monday and get a free 20-30 min 'rapid' charge on the Leaf. By using free rapid chargers/standard chargers at supermarkets/car parks whilst shopping I've actually only had to charge the Leaf once from 60% to 80% at home in 120 miles of driving....So far it's costing me hardly anything at all to re-fuel!!

[ganzoom]

Just seen that Tesla Sales figuers for Q1 of 2015 is a massive 55% higher than last year.

Beaf in mind this is a £70k car, which has been on sale since 2013, in 2013 it out-sold ALL equivalent ICE cars in the same class in the U.S, and was only beaten by the new S class last year....AND Elon Musk (CEO) doesn't believe in advertising.

Having owned the Leaf now for just over 3 days I 100% believe EVs are the future. Having spent about £50k+ over the last decade on performance petrol cars I now cannot see my self owing another petrol/ICE powered car ever again!!

Any car company not investing in EVs now are going to find them selves in serious trouble when the likes of Tesla and VW/Audi group announce their £30-40K 200 mile range EVs in around the next 18-24 months!!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/03/tesla-delivers-10000-electric-vehicles-in-first-quarter-of-2105

We are about to settle the finance on the Lexus (took PCP to get the £1k dealer contribution), but now I'm think actually why drop another £20k in the Lexus, when actually if we leave it on PCP, in 3 years there will almost certainly be a viable EV car with a 200mile range for £30-40k??? We can than keep the Leaf for city runs (£10k to pay in 2 years..)

[CraigA_UK]

I wonder how many other EV & Hybrid cars have been sold by people trying the Tesla?

I had a test drive in one in January and it's the most incredible car I've ever driven from a 'gut punching' acceleration perspective, and I only drove the 85kw normal model - not the 3.2 second 0-60 P85D.

Unfortunately I can't quite make the maths work for ownership of a new one, so that's why I'm looking at the IS300h. After a 3 year lease, I'm sure there will be a better range of EVs around, or some better Model S deals on the table.

I have also test drove a Leaf. The first EV I'd ever tried, and it was very cool. Really like the silent motoring and torquey acceleration.Low initial range and range drop-off in the winter just makes it a bit too impractical for me. I need 200 miles on a charge to cover 99% of what I do.

The thing I'm surprised about with most hybrids is how they don't better use the torque of the electric motor to give a more spirited drive, more like the way that the hybrid supercars like the McLaren P1 do (although obviously not to the same performance levels!). I assume it's an MPG improvement vs performance improvement trade-off, especially with the fairly small Battery packs the hybrids have.

The Infiniti M35h appears to be more sporty in performance - but it looks hideous compared to the IS 300h. Has anyone tried a drive in one?

[Roscobbc]

I am pleased that someone has posted all these figures and comparisions - and yes the 'all electric' vehicle does look like a very sensible purchase formany people. The cost of the Tesla is quite significant - perhaps the new 'smaller' version planned will be better suited to more buyers pockets. Living in outer London and seeing over the years - in this order, firstly the introduction of the congestion charge (and succesive increases) - LEZ zone for commercial vehicles - free parking for electric vehicles (later recinded) - free access to congestion charge for hybrid vehicles (again recinded to electric only and plug-in's) - the gradual reduction in no's of usable traffic lanes coupled with widening of pavements/introduction of bus and cycle lanes - London Boro's with 24 hour 20 mph zones - and now the 2020 plans to heavily charge pre Euro 4 vehicles in the CCZ -------------------- please forgive me for being sceptical about the future benifits of using an all electric vehicle. I can't see any Government in power, after 'giving away' all these 'incentives' to encourage the use of low emission vehicles (free CCZ - charge point grants - free excise duty) and letting it all carry on-------------without there being a future 'sting in tail' for electric vehicle users. If we see the expected significant increase in purchase of these vehicles and subsequent loss in taxation on fuel and road tax for HMG its obvious the implication for the users of electric vehicles. What about the fact that we are 'on the edge' of major energy shortages and no proper government plans to bridge any gap from 'now' to 'when' new power stations 'come on line'. Even if the Telsla 'Supercharge' stations and more 'on street' charge points are installed will they meet the demands of new users? - will there be a tax implication for using them? - will there be effective maintenance of charge points? (currently only a few operable ones in London)..................... seems to me that any taxation and running cost benefits will be potentially short lived and only for the early adopters of the technology.................. my 'take' on it all is good luck to anyone considering these vehicles - enjoy while you are able to.