Vvti Cam Startup Noise

[ophthdoc]

Okay. Here goes.

My car is a 2006 Lexus IS 250 done 41000 miles with full Lexus service history.

The car has recently developed a rattle on occasional start up (doesn't happen every time). The Local branch of Lexus has said it needs new Cam gears at a cost of nearly 1800GBP.

I have searched the issue and there are many owners with this problem on both UK and US forums. A toyota TSB was issued in 2007 to address the issue EG017-07 (link here https://www.dropbox.com/s/60xeccyat39id8t/EG017-07.pdf?dl=0).

More recently in Sep 2013 a recall has been issued in US, Australia, and New Zealand to address this issue on this engine (for IS350 in US and Australia, but all IS in NZ) - this applies to all cars irrespective of age (link here http://www.lexus.co.nz/en/servicing-support/recall-information.html#).

I have asked Lexus GB and they will not pay anything as goodwill due to age of car neither are they issuing a recall as it's not a safety issue (yet it is in other countries!). My reading says that it is an issue known to Lexus and affects many Toyota and Lexus vehicles, and I cannot understand why a recall has been issued elsewhere in the world but nothing has been done in the UK.

My question to the forum is can we get enough people on board to get something done by Lexus GB? Are there any other avenues to explore?

[johnatg]

Being realistic, I don't think there is any chance whatsoever of getting Lexus to do anything about this. The TSB specifically states that the repair is only applicable if a customer complains within the warranty period (which I don't think applies to UK) which is limited to 72 months or 72000 miles. So we're out of time anyway, even with that rule. And there is an industry standard - I don't know if it's written down anywhere or not - that manufacturers wash their hands of all cars over 7 years old.

And there just aren't enough people on this forum to make any impression on Lexus (especially with 2006/2007 model year cars, which means 2005/2006 cars in UK terms)

The problem doesn't sound particularly serious and the noise may not be due to cam gear wear anyway. Start-up rattle is often caused by infrequent oil changes and not flushing and is caused by hydraulic valve lifters sticking or not pressurising.

I'll bang on again - ignore extended service intervals (that applies to all cars ragardless of manufacturer), change the oil at half the intervals recommended and use engine flush at every oil change. The noise may well go away - and even if it doesn't it seems unlikely that any harm will result.

I may be wrong, of course!

[ColinBarber]

Seems quite clear that the recall is for the 2GR-FSE engine, that isn't used in the IS250.

[johnatg]

Bit confusing really - the US TSB refers to the 4GR-FSE which is used in the IS250 - but the NZ one refers to the 2GR-FSE which is a 3.0/3.5/4.0L engine used in the IS350 and GS models etc, and is also popular for racing and road conversions of some Toyota models (MR2 for example). But the NZ sheet also refers to the IS250 - did they do some for the Antipodes with bigger engines? But then why aren't they IS350s?

[ColinBarber]

The TSB and recall though are two separate things. The TSB is related to the IS250 but it isn't a safety issue, hence there is no recall. Maybe the issue is more serious with the 3.5l engine?

[ophthdoc]

Thanks for the replies guys.

My take on this is that it is a bit market driven, which seems unfair. The issue is the same for is350 and is250; as are the symptoms and the repairs. To call one a safety recall and the other as not doesn't make sense.

As for the TSB it seems like pot luck. If your car develops a problem before the warranty is up then lexus fixes it, otherwise they don't. But the fact remains that it is a design fault, and affects lots of models including FJ Cruiser, Scions etc. and toyota has changed the design since.

As for the time limit of 7 years, recent recalls (including the one out today) go back to many years (the one for SC430 I think applied to 13 years but not sure).

Any suggestions on who we contact if the manufacturer is refusing to help?

[ColinBarber]

As for the TSB it seems like pot luck. If your car develops a problem before the warranty is up then lexus fixes it, otherwise they don't.

Isn't that the definition of a warranty period?

The 7 year thing is US specific and related to a warranty period for certain parts of the car. A safety recall doesn't have a timeframe.

Sorry but I don't think you have anywhere to go really, the Sales of goods act isn't going to apply to a vehicle that is now 8 years old, for something that occasionally makes a 1 second noise but has no affect on the vehicle's performance.

[ophthdoc]

I understand the argument about the warranty period. But if a manufacturer finds out that a component is faulty by design and hence issues guidance to correct it then there should be a bit of ownership even if it fails outside the warranty period. But that's my opinion! And it also doesn't explain why it's a safety recall on one engine and not on the other. Perhaps the more mechanically inclined can shed some light?

There are some recurring issues like seizing calipers, and headlamp condensation etc and I think I have been unlucky to get them in my car despite low mileage and FSH. Paid over 500 for a new headlamp (xenon) and then the other one did the same thing (periodically not working in rain). That one I took out and just changed the seal (gasket) on the underside. Fixed in £13 (plus a couple of hours in manual labour as my helper refused to help out - but he is only 11!)

[is200 Newbie]

Bite the bullet... A regular engine flush and oil change cured the rattle I had with mine. 6 monthly oil changes. Filter / oil / flush, £50 is a small price to pay for peace of mind. Also the knowledge the oil has been changed properly.

Yes, its a bit of frustration when its a known issue but it will certainly be less hassle to sort this yourself than wait for months and months for answers..

[ophthdoc]

That's the plan for now. Don't think I am quite ready to spend 1800 quids. But will see if I can find a way and report back.

On the engine flush, is there anything recommended? Do you use an addititive?

[is200 Newbie]

When I am changing the oil I will buy a can of Wynns engine flush (find it in Halfords for around £6 I think)

That's the one I have always used with no issue - no reason really in buying that brand other than that's what's been available when I first started using the flush (a good 5 years ago now in the cars I have had) and I have stuck to it.

Before you change the oil empty the can into the oil and run the engine at around 2000 revs (will tell you on the can) for around 20 minutes.

When done, drop the oil, then the filter, I always put a small amount of the new stuff through first and wait for it to fully drain, then fill up with the good stuff.

I have changed the oil every 6 months. I experienced the rattle quite a few times before I started the regular oil changes and if I remember correctly the last time I experienced a rattle was last year before this current oil and at that time it was getting noticeably less and less. I tried to see if there was a pattern to it but there wasn't one ... it rattled when the engine was hot and cold.

If you change the oil yourself then you know whats going into the engine and you know it has actually been changed.

I went through an issue quite similar to this with a Vauxhall, 3 month old Astra that was using quite a bit of oil, I spent a good 8 months trying to get them to have a look at it - finally got it in on an oil consumption test and they said it was fine, could not find anything wrong with it even though there was. The hassle I had over this was not worth it but I guess the manufacturers / dealers bank on people giving up a bit but really if there's something you can do to save the hassle then go for it.

Karma came when I part ex'd it back to the Vauxhall dealer I bought it from and bought my first Lexus!

[ChumpusRex]

Thanks for the replies guys.

My take on this is that it is a bit market driven, which seems unfair. The issue is the same for is350 and is250; as are the symptoms and the repairs. To call one a safety recall and the other as not doesn't make sense.

The difference is that for the IS250 there haven't been any reported problems other than the noise.

On the IS350, although the problem is the same, the rattling also causes a 2nd problem, which is to cause the bolt mounting the adjuster to the cam to lose its torque and come loose, causing the cam to disconnect from the timing chain and demolish the engine. The reason for the recall is that when the engine is demolished it will stall, potentially increasing the risk of a collision.

[is200 Newbie]

A chewed up engine aint good !

[Mouser]

My car is a 2006 Lexus IS 250 done 41000 miles with full Lexus service history.

The car has recently developed a rattle on occasional start up (doesn't happen every time). The Local branch of Lexus has said it needs new Cam gears at a cost of nearly 1800GBP.

It's fairly common to see that, change your oil and filter and it'll be fixed. 10W30 fully synthetic.

Changing the cam... they're having a giraffe, slap that man with a fish.

[ophthdoc]

Found this on the US Lexus owners forum - posted by a Lexus master tech - may explain why there's a recall on IS350 and not on IS250 though both have the same problem.

Quote:

I'm not sure why they only decided to recall only the 350s (2gr) cam gears. I do know that it is a different cam gear than the 250 (4gr). The camshafts and valve springs are also not designed the same. So that being said, this would be my best guess as to why:

They both rattle- YES
Is the rattle violent enough to cause bolts to back out on the 350(2gr) - YES there are reported cases

Is the rattle violent enough to cause bolts to back out of the 250(4gr) - Unknown - I haven't read or heard anything as of yet.

Factor in the corporate bean counter liability math = only 350 can be dangerous?.

I truly hope they decide to include the 250s in this recall regardless because a vehicle shouldn't have a death rattle.

If I hear any changes you guys will be first to know.


Read more: http://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-second-generation/713117-cam-gear-recall-released-5.html#ixzz3GFrcvSnv

[ColinBarber]

it is also likely that this wouldn't be a recall in the UK even if the IS250 was affected. From the UK Government website it can only be a recall if the fault cannot be identified during servicing or doesn't make unusual noises. Even then just an engine stalling probably doesn't equate to a safety issue in the UK.

Before reporting a safety defect

Before reporting a safety defect you should make sure the problem with your vehicle is a ‘serious safety defect’.

DVSA defines this as a ‘feature of design or construction liable to cause a significant risk of personal injury or death’.

Things that aren’t serious safety defects include:

• defects that can be identified during routine maintenance and servicing
• defects that give prior warning from warning lights, marked changes in handling and unusual noises

[ophthdoc]

Have put this on a different post as well - but used Xado engine oil additive when the noise resurfaced within a few weeks of an oil change. Its been nearly a year and the noise hasn't come back yet. Will keep an eye (and ear!) out and update.

[bobmc]

Thanks for updating the topic.

Adds to the knowledge base 

 

 

[is200 Newbie]

Regular oil change and an engine flush each time has cured mine. Since doing this it has not come back.

Got to say that the oil remains cleaner longer also.

[ophthdoc]

Update on Xado - took 9 months but the noise has returned. Have had the car serviced, and will stick to 6 monthly oil change I think. Love the car but not the issues!

[Linas.P]

Indeed that is the best decision, I have same thing, just my car has 3 times more miles than yours. Regular oil change seems to mitigate this issue.

[MIKEDAVIDN]

 My 58 reg IS250 also developed this engine rattle, I took out the Lexus extended warranty (2 years for the price of 1), waited a year then got it fixed for free under warranty. If you take out a warranty then ask for it fixing straight away Lexus UK will not fix it but wait a year and you should be okay, plus you also have the benefits of a two year warranty. 

[ahmedali44]

Did lexus tell you what the rattle was and any parts replaced 

[MIKEDAVIDN]

No I didn't ask what the work carried out was or got any paperwork / receipts to show the work carried out, they had my car though for 3 days!

[is200 Newbie]

On ‎04‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 7:35 PM, MIKEDAVIDN said:

No I didn't ask what the work carried out was or got any paperwork / receipts to show the work carried out, they had my car though for 3 days!

At what point from the last oil change did the car start the rattle?