Warped Hubs?

[rincewind]

Runout 10 mm from the outer edge of the disc should be no more than 0.035 (IIRC).  The smallest amout of rust on the hub surface can throw this outside of tolerance.  Ask me how I know...

 

I didn't have any problems getting the magnetic base held steady, I think I attached it to the arm that goes to the upper wishbone.  It was a couple of years ago though so I'm not sure about that.

[catnap]

@wakhtar Yeah I did several tries with it- when measuring the hub I had to have the DTI base on the dust shield which held for the most part but kept dropping off when the tip of the DTI was going over rough hub surface. I might have to cable-tie it in place, or use a c-clamp or something. I did sand the surface as best I could but they're pretty old and pitted so the measurement isn't hugely reliable from the word go.

The grinding noise is the tip of the DTI on the hub surface. The nearside bearing is binding a little and doesn't sound great- see the end of the video of the shape it's in. Good video though, thanks.

@rincewind I did actually clean everything up with sandpaper before reinstalling- the nearside was worse than the offside but it didn't change anything (took measurements afterwards). So it looks like my discs are out of whack on both sides- it might just be the discs if they're both showing the same runout with one bearing being worse than the other?

I was actually on the vertical knuckle arm for the disc but it wasn't strong enough to hold reliably. Cable ties needed next time!

[Damo2]

Hi Guys

My car, fingers crossed, may now be sorted at last, very early days yet but thought I would share.

This week, as my MOT is due at end of Sept anyway and I knew it would be a fail because of the steering wheel wobble under braking, which over the last 6 months has got progressively worse, even at 30mph. I have now had the car looked at by my local garage who work on all car types, and which is a different place to where I used to take the car previously, which was an Independent Lexus outfit! 

First thing they did was take it for an MOT and guess what it failed, which we knew it would, but they wanted to make sure there was no other work needed for the MOT before starting work on investigating the wobble. "Front brake excessively fluctuating" was all the MOT station put, nothing else.

Anyway, I asked them to check over the whole front end suspension, bearings and braking system, including checking the run out of the discs while on the hub. Findings for the run out were both sides were way out, one side read 6 thousandths of an inch and the other 4 thousandths. They called to say the discs were warped and they would need replacing, but they knew from what I had told them they needed to carry on checking for what the root cause of the wobble issue was, as they agreed with me that it was probably suspension related and not just the discs / brakes, as they had had previous experience of a similar problem on BMW's many many years ago, which they identified as suspension bushes.

Got the car back today after 3 days in garage with new MOT and wobble cured. They found the bushes on both front suspension tie rods had gone, proper split, however they had to replace the complete rods as the bushes are not available separately apparently, they spoke to Lexus Milton Keynes who confirmed this. Next challenge was actually finding the parts, Lexus / Toyota don't stock and lead time was going to be about 4 days to order in. However my garage did eventually manage to find a set with another parts supplier who had a pair in stock which had been sitting on their shelves for a few years, they were ordered in for a client who then never purchased them.

I attach some piccies of the culprit... along with schematic of the front axle arm and steering knuckle. the circled part is what has been replaced.

To cut a long story short, I have also had fitted new front discs (tolerance now both sides is 0.001), new pads, 2 new front tyres Continentals (as one was near the limit), and the tracking done as well which was also a bit out. Car is a real pleasure to drive now, so I am hoping that at last the problem is finally resolved, only time will tell so I will post again when I have done some miles.

Hope this info may be of some use to everyone else, at least it is another are to look at in finding faults on your own cars.

Best

Damo

 

[BillNick]

Lets hope it cures. Time will tell, please report back after 1000 miles.

[catnap]

Good info. What you're referring to are the no.2 lower control arms though, not the tie rods. I had my bushes replaced with SuperPro polyurethane because the eBay specials were awful and split after 3k miles.

[Damo2]

Thanks Phil!

I am not at all technical when it comes to motors. My garage originally said when they called me it was control arms, so you are right, and then on the invoice it says "tie rods"... however they were clear on the parts they replaced when I picked the old girl up, and they provided the schematics to me as I told them I wanted to post on here. So confident all is good on the actual parts they replaced as they also got the schematic and retails costs from Lexus MK. Although they said they had to spend 4hrs sourcing them elsewhere, apparently the whole rod assembly is as rare as rocking horse stuff in the UK!!

Interesting that you did get replacement bushes though for the rods on your car, but I am not going to pursue as I am just happy that the car at the Mo is driving fine... so fine I am back in love again, as everything else with the car is spot on.

PS. My garage said they had so much interest and comments on her while in the workshop, people love them but are not familiar with them. Will post some picks soon as she is in such good nick, mint actually, but needs a wash.

[Damo2]

Just bumping this thread as may be useful..  I need to stick some miles on the clock for the recent work done on mine and will then report back ... so not sure if this is relevant to all but worth sharing???

Posted February 7, 2016 · Report post

The large bushes on the front lower steering control arms are a known cause of judder at speed.

[catnap]

If you paid for genuine Lexus LCAs then you'll get good bushes that'll last- I initially went with eBay specials but they were crap, so I paid £100 (had a friend press them in, swapped the arms myself) for the SuperPro bushes. They've been pretty good so far and they'll wear far slower than rubber, but they're a bit less malleable so you get a little more NVH with them. 

But yeah, they're a known weak point.

[rincewind]

I had my lower control arms  off a few months ago. After 145k they are fine.  It seems rather variable when they deteriorate.  

[Damo2]

yeah got genuine Lexus OEM parts... not cheap, but I feel happier that they are, as I have always so far stuck to original parts for the car. Just my preference rather than a roadblock for using alternative parts. 

[catnap]

Question guys- can the issues with the hubs cause steering wheel shake at certain speeds? I've been chasing what feels like a wheel balancing problem for ages and I'm wondering if it's down to this.

[lexus22]

Wouldn't have thought so, only if you were to brake. Sounds more like Tyre/wheel problem.

[catnap]

Yeah beginning to wonder if I have a buckled wheel or two. Tyres are in good condition, but the wobble comes and goes between 60-80mph, was a pain on the drive back from Holland recently as I had to find a speed that didn't cause it. Then it goes away back in the UK, only to come back yesterday after changing the inner tie rods.

I swear, this car has been so much trouble for a reliable brand.

[rincewind]

It may be the wheels, or perhaps warped tyres- try swapping the wheels front to rear  but suspension  issues can also be to blame.  Lower control arm bushes are a common culprit - have a look at them to see if they are degraded. 

[catnap]

LCAs are SuperPro poly bushes as mine were shot- no change. Been running them a year or so.
I run staggered as it's a Sportcross (215 front, 225 rear) but I might swap them around temporarily to see if the problem goes away. Does feel a bit like a buckled wheel.

[clifton 94]

Had this on my jag had the wheels road force balanced still the same vibration had a look and it was a buckled wheel changed it with spare a lot better. Even though it was on the front did not make the steering wheel shake but I could feel it through the car strange . If you can jack the car up and put your finger on the inside back of the rim and slowly turn the wheel you may feel the buckle but be careful 

[lexus22]

1 hour ago, catnap said:

Yeah beginning to wonder if I have a buckled wheel or two. Tyres are in good condition, but the wobble comes and goes between 60-80mph, was a pain on the drive back from Holland recently as I had to find a speed that didn't cause it. Then it goes away back in the UK, only to come back yesterday after changing the inner tie rods.

I swear, this car has been so much trouble for a reliable brand.

..but when these niggles are sorted, the car is the absolute dogs!  Assume that you have removed and inspected the inside rims on all wheels for any signs of a buckle/flat spot?

I notice you in Sussex, do yourself a massive favor and take car to Wheels in Motion. They are 85 miles from you in Chesham, but motorway miles. They will set tracking to correct spec, check wheels/tyres and then balance them "correctly" (not balanced on a worn out piece of crap in most tyre shops) The car will then drive perfect.

[rincewind]

I had my wheels refurbished by Lepsons this year (fantastic OEM finish). As part of the process they test for out of true.  One wheel was , so they straightened it.  The only time I had a wobble though was when I put new (Lexus oem) discs on the front. The hub surfaces weren't flat, causing excessive run out.  I spent some time flattening the surfaces by sanding and scraping. Job done - no more wobble.

[rincewind]

The tiniest of rust bumps can cause excessive run out.

[catnap]

57 minutes ago, lexus22 said:

..but when these niggles are sorted, the car is the absolute dogs!  Assume that you have removed and inspected the inside rims on all wheels for any signs of a buckle/flat spot?

I notice you in Sussex, do yourself a massive favor and take car to Wheels in Motion. They are 85 miles from you in Chesham, but motorway miles. They will set tracking to correct spec, check wheels/tyres and then balance them "correctly" (not balanced on a worn out piece of crap in most tyre shops) The car will then drive perfect.

It's been to WIM! I had it done a few months ago and it did settle the car down a bit- but I didn't get the wheels balanced as I didn't have the shake at the time. Tony came out to the garage from home to talk it through with me which was a really nice touch. Apparently he's semi retired now.

I think the plan for now is to replace steering rack bushes, check wheel runout as you and @clifton 94 mentioned and replace or straighten as needed (Lepsons do seem like a good bet and they're fairly close), replace passenger hub and then do the brakes. Then, just maybe, it'll be driving properly!

[lexus22]

..but you didn't have the wheels balanced! As you know, they have the latest equipment for balancing wheels %100. They done mine, after some other muppet done them, and every wheel was out!! Cured a slight (but annoying) steering shake at 65mph. Go back and get them balanced!!

[Damo2]

Being a novice, as you all know i am! I am just re-iterating my own findings on this dilemma in case it useful?

I have been through multiple discs, always as a pair front and back  (handbrake disc /drums), tracking, wheel balances, new wheels, tyres etc. again always as a pair and all round (4 corners), But I always felt that the underlying issues was something to do with the suspension as well as the brakes.. And TBH.. I was so glad that the garage I took the car to just recently actually found a fault with the lower control arms as I now feel vindicated., even the bill was a fortune...__  BTW-- I had 2 new front shocks fitted less than a year ago as well.

This might not be the end of my issues, although all good at the moment, but I feel better for the fact that was was another problem other than nothing else being found!!.. if that makes sense?? Especially after I trusted the car to an independent Lexus Specialist for the first 4 years of ownership and they never worked it out.

Just to be clear, I am not putting any miles on the car at the moment, I only just hit 50 miles or so since it was in the garage last week, that's just my beer run over a week.. and also the Supermarket shop..! but I will report back when I have more to add.

Check all your suspension parts on your motors is my advice.. But as I said at the start... I know nothing really..

Best

Damo

[Damo2]

Correction, meant to say on my last post.. "even though the bill was a fortune".... but I expected it to be... For those interested the LCA's  i.e. the complete replacement Lexus OEM arms with factory fitted bushes, to buy in cost £160 each plus VAT, so times 2.. then fitting them was on top, although my garage are very competitive and fair when it comes to labour rates and the time they spend.

That said the rest of the front end, as I had asked them to do, was totally scrutinised and checked out, and apart from the brake discs, pads and new tyres needed was given a clean bill of health. So my fingers are still crossed, but all the work done pushed the final bill up somewhat as it also included a new O2 sensor, bank 2 sensor 2!!

 

[Damo2]

Quick update..

only just hitting 200 local road miles since all the work done as above, but all good so far.

I have really concentrated on wearing in all new parts, especially the brakes, as I used to do a 110 mile round trip daily on mainly the motorway, so very hard to look after new brakes then. You know the scenario, some prat sticks the anchors on and you have to do the same...!

However all seems fine at the moment, I will give it a little bit longer and then go for a proper long test drive.

I still feel though that there was a couple of probs and not just brake's, and that the worn LCA's as found by my garage, were maybe a part of that.. And since they have been replaced the car is brand new.. Will report back later this month as I have a few trips to do which will test the car.

 

[lexus22]

200 miles nothing, need at least 1000 for things to "bed in"