Warped Hubs?

[BillNick]

Hi Ken, welcome to the club of brake judder! ha

I actually picked up a low mileage hub carrier assembly this weekend. Hoping this swap with a new disc cures mine for good.

Will keep you updated.

[Ken_1]

Best of luck Billy.

Are ye also changing the pad each time round the loop? Probably a good idea right?

[Ken_1]

Confirmed that the run out on both NSF disc and hub is way off. OSF is okish.

Is it fair to say guys that checking the Run out on the Hub flange is
absolutely critical after fitting either just a flange or a complete
hub carrier?
Is it pointless putting on a new disc if the run out is not within spec?
Have Mike & Bill ensured this is the case? I know Chris did.
Chris, did you really get < 0.04mm on the disc run out with the S/H hub carrier? What is the tolerable run out at the hub flange? Is it also 0.04mm?
Are ye also changing pads each time of sanding down the problematic one in each case? Probably only ~1k miles on them anyways.
If getting a S/H hub carrier, is it the end of the world if bearing is gone, must important thing is the run out on flange is really good. Then change the bearing if necessary. Or am i missing something here?
I'm thinking if guys have gone down just the flange and bearing route then maybe the mechanic
just tells you the run out is ok even if it isn't as you have just wasted a bearing anyways and they may not be able to return the flange to supplier. Maybe its a case of ah sure try it and see!
Question: How much is a new complete hub carrier assembly from Lexus? Are there non OEM complete hub assembly versions? Not just the flange and bearing.

[lexus22]

Is the car sorted Ken?

[Wootty]

Very good thread.

Ive got the dreaded brake judder too.Discs and pads are about 5 months old and started after about 2000 miles.

New set on the horizon me thinks.This time i'll put my d.t.i on the hub face.

[catnap]

Posting to bump the thread a little- I've got a new-to-me (2 weeks) 2002 IS300 with brake judder and the discs are definitely out of true but to such an extent that I'm going to take them off and clean the hub surface at the weekend as they can't be out this far.

Refurbed Pagid calipers arriving this week as the lower pistons on both sides are seized solid.

I only really get the juddering at >50mph, at low speeds there's no or very very little surging when braking.

Such a pain compared to my old car but so worth it when comparing the two.

[BillNick]

Your new calipers should cure your issue....though you may need new discs if they have had uneven wear due to calipers

[catnap]

Yes I had considered this. I spun the disc while on the hub with two wheel nuts on, and held a screwdriver near the outside edge. The wobble was a good 5mm which cannot be right- there must be a bad seating on the disc or something. Fairly sure I'd be catapulted off the road if it were actually that much.

I'm going to have a look tonight or tomorrow at the mounting, see if that helps. Fingers crossed!

[rincewind]

Good grief it surely can't be 5mm out? The max permitted runout is about 0.05mm. I had mine down to 0.035 - 0.04 once I had cleaned the hubs up.

[catnap]

Yeah, that's what leads me to believe something else is at play. I took the discs off last night (one was seriously rusted to the hub and required some percussive maintenance to remove it) and cleaned up them plus the mating surface. I couldn't see much wobble when I tried again- maybe that was it.

However, the brakes haven't changed- still wobbling like mad at 50-60 when braking with any force. I did find the nearside hub doesn't spin freely, so maybe that needs doing too - wheel bearing?

Calipers are here so i'll fit them tonight, I have a feeling this will solve most of the problems.

[rincewind]

Worn Lower front steering control arm bushes can also cause wobble under braking.

http://my.is/forums/f221/diy-front-2-lower-control-arm-414502/

[catnap]

I've just had those done actually, as well as both lower ball joints- unrelated but they had a lot of play in them. No difference! I'll post back later once the calipers are on. Given that the lower piston in both is basically solid (c-clamp and a block of wood barely moved it) I suspect that's the issue.

[rincewind]

Curious - how much were your lower arms and where did you source them. I have the dreaded front o/s 'knock' and it might be the steering arm bushes, as I've changed the shock, top mount and both ball joints.

[catnap]

I had my mechanic press these in http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170964524940?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT as the entire arms were £110 each from the dealer- this worked out much cheaper. I couldn't have done it myself though.

[lexus22]

Yeah, that's what leads me to believe something else is at play. I took the discs off last night (one was seriously rusted to the hub and required some percussive maintenance to remove it) and cleaned up them plus the mating surface. I couldn't see much wobble when I tried again- maybe that was it.

However, the brakes haven't changed- still wobbling like mad at 50-60 when braking with any force. I did find the nearside hub doesn't spin freely, so maybe that needs doing too - wheel bearing?

Calipers are here so i'll fit them tonight, I have a feeling this will solve most of the problems.

Yeah, that's what leads me to believe something else is at play. I took the discs off last night (one was seriously rusted to the hub and required some percussive maintenance to remove it) and cleaned up them plus the mating surface. I couldn't see much wobble when I tried again- maybe that was it.

However, the brakes haven't changed- still wobbling like mad at 50-60 when braking with any force. I did find the nearside hub doesn't spin freely, so maybe that needs doing too - wheel bearing?

Calipers are here so i'll fit them tonight, I have a feeling this will solve most of the problems.

Reckon the disc(s) are either warped or worn due to being out so far, replace them both as cheap enough from Eurocarparts, think Pagid ones are £42 each which I used on mine and seem fine. Wheel bearing would normally make a noticeable noise if playing up though.

[catnap]

Well, calipers on and they made quite a difference. There's still a very slight trembling when braking at 50+ but if I stamp on them it doesn't feel dangerous anymore. The fluid that came out of the offside caliper was horrible - probably never been changed.

The nearside disc is definitely a bit warped- we spent some time rotating it with wheel nuts on and holding a screwdriver still near the surface and you can see it moving as it rotates. I think I can get away with just changing that disc as they're about £45 online but it might have to wait a bit as this cost me £200 in calipers.

Sadly I can now hear the rear caliper binding at low speed- slight scraping noise coming from rear offside. Expensive things, cars...

[BillNick]

Scraping noise at the rear might just be the dust guard. They have a lip on them that slips inside the back of the drum/disc and as this corrodes it expands and rubs.

Give that check before getting new rear calipers.....

[catnap]

Thanks, I'll check that. I wasn't going to order calipers on just a noise but I will take that corner apart at the weekend and see what's going on. Is the dust guard very obvious?

[BillNick]

Get your head behind the rear hub and turn the disc you will see what I mean.

If the scraping is coming from the dust guard then whip the caliper and disc off and give both a good clean up.

[Ken_1]

Hi Chris, i got the discs on the front skimmed with an on car lathe. There was an issue with the run out on the NSF hub, NSF disc was badly warped. Mechanic reckoned with my long history it was the best and cheapest thing to try. It will compensate to suit my car. Discs would now not work on any other car. I'll know in about 2k miles i guess. But it is now perfect. Rules out front lower arm bushes and a whole lot of other things but hey they are probably not all100% either.

Tip: Put car on lift and get someone to lightly apply brake, then try and turn the wheels by hand on both sides, you will find what side the issue is.

Others mention the rear caliper noise, don't overly worry about that, the rear caliper is a completely different design to the front. Save your money for the front ones and the recurring nasty issues they have! You will need it!

The entire front brake assembly is a disaster on these cars, Calipers, Pistons, Rubber boots, Sliders, Carriers, soft hub flanges, font lower arms and bushings...need i go on!

[catnap]

The entire front brake assembly is a disaster on these cars, Calipers, Pistons, Rubber boots, Sliders, Carriers, soft hub flanges, font lower arms and bushings...need i go on!

Yep, done all those already apart from the hub flanges, and I've only had it three weeks!

[lexus22]

Hi Chris, i got the discs on the front skimmed with an on car lathe. There was an issue with the run out on the NSF hub, NSF disc was badly warped. Mechanic reckoned with my long history it was the best and cheapest thing to try. It will compensate to suit my car. Discs would now not work on any other car. I'll know in about 2k miles i guess. But it is now perfect. Rules out front lower arm bushes and a whole lot of other things but hey they are probably not all100% either.

Tip: Put car on lift and get someone to lightly apply brake, then try and turn the wheels by hand on both sides, you will find what side the issue is.

Others mention the rear caliper noise, don't overly worry about that, the rear caliper is a completely different design to the front. Save your money for the front ones and the recurring nasty issues they have! You will need it!

The entire front brake assembly is a disaster on these cars, Calipers, Pistons, Rubber boots, Sliders, Carriers, soft hub flanges, font lower arms and bushings...need i go on!

Yes please...!

[catnap]

Well the trembling at 50-60mph and occasionally around corners was the balancing being out, as well as the NSF wheel being slightly buckled. Not sure much else can go wrong with one corner of a car but yeah, the calipers were 90% of the problem. Thanks for all the help guys.

[Doody]

Bought my IS200 Sportcross just over a year ago and in the very full history was a receipt for the replacement of warped discs, being the last work done on the car. After running it for about 1000 miles I noticed a judder coming up the steering wheel when braking from 40mph down to 30mph. This got steadily worse so I got the discs replaced, new pads etc. This was good for another 1000 miles but then the judder returned. My mechanic's diagnosis was warped hubs, or at a very outside bet, buckled wheels. I got him to fit s/h hub flange assemblies I sourced and new discs my mechanic managed to wangle free from his supplier. 1000 miles later we were back to square one. It was then I started reading this string, and with my mechanic suggesting the only path open to me was to fit new Lexus hubs, bearings and discs at a cost of about £800, I decided to live with it. It wasn't too severe and as time went on I felt that it was actually getting better (or perhaps I was getting inured to it). Drove it on holiday to the Outer Hebrides in May and it was fantastic. At its MOT in July all that was needed was a lower ball joint replaced. 1000 miles after that was done the judder has returned with a vengeance but oddly it is now from 70mph down to 60mph and is much more violent. I'm just wondering if this ball joint suggests anything and if it is safe, particularly with winter just round the corner.

[lexus22]

I assume your mechanic has checked the run out on the discs? This will at least confirm if problem is with n/s or o/s.

The second hand hub flange assemblies you had fitted, was this a complete hub assembly inc wheel bearings and arm?