Warped Hubs?

BillNick · October 1, 2015

I have a NSF hub assembly with excellent bearing off a low mileage 2005 if anyone needs one PM me

Damo2 · October 1, 2015

Hi guys - I have been following this thread for some time now as I also have the same issue with my IS300 Sportcross. I bought the car from a mate of mine as it was his wife's ride but she hardly ever used it as she would drive their Range Rover and my mates a builder, so he hardly used either of the cars as his daily ride is his van. It was one owner from new, full history and had only done 12,500 miles when I bought it in Feb 2011 - so was virtually as brand new when I got hold of her.

Since then I have had 3 sets of front discs and pads replaced - everything was ok for approx the first 20k miles when I first bought the car off my mate, then the dreaded juddering started. I took it to an independent Lexus specialist (fully Lexus Trained and the right equipment for working on them). I had sort of diagnosed it as warped discs myself having had experience of this on my Vectra V6 SRI which used to chew front discs up after about 30k+ miles (I stuck 180k miles on the Vectra before selling her on, so had gone through quite a few discs by then, it was never anything else). Anyway my mechanic also concluded the front discs on my Lexus were warped and on inspection this was the case, so they installed new OEM parts to both corners.

Less than 7 months and approx. 15k miles later the same issue returned - my mechanic no questions asked replaced the discs and pads under warranty and at the same time comprehensively checked the front end, suspension, bearings etc for other issues but found nothing un-towards. However you've guessed it, the new ones lasted less than 7k miles this time before the juddering started again, so I took it back to my man again who was at a total loss and said he would take it to the main Lexus dealer who supplied him the parts for them to look at it, which he did. After waiting 2 hours for them to actually do a road test and some cursory checks with it on the ramp and expecting them to do further checks with a dial gauge for run out etc, which they didn't, they concluded the issue was at the back end and said he would need to bring the car back again for them to look at it closer!!

However neither my mechanic or I could afford the time to go back to Lexus again for them to investigate further and quite frankly we both thought they were off their heads to suggest the issue was at the back end, plus I couldn't afford to have the car off the road as I needed it for work and public transport was not an option for me as it involved a 12 mile drive to the rail station and 3 trains to get to the office. So we went with another set of discs, new pads and my man also checked out the front end again but still found nothing amiss. My mechanic supplied the parts FOC and just charged me a nominal labour rate to fit this new set.

Again everything was fine for a while but the issue eventually returned, however I have to date not had anything else done and have just lived with it. The juddering is mostly pronounced when braking in the 55> to 40 zone, but can also occur intermittently at higher speeds and be quite aggressive. What I have noticed is that when the discs are cold braking is fine at any speed and the juddering doesn't manifest itself at all - I have specifically tested this many times to make sure it is not a figment of my imagination - however once they have had the chance to heat up that's when the juddering happens. I have also observed what I feel is excessive amounts of brake dust accumulating on the front wheels??

Bizarrely though, as Doody also mentioned in his post, as time has gone by it seems to be sorting itself out - I have just got back from a holiday in Cornwall driving the car under all sorts of road conditions, at high speeds up and down steep hills and around sharp bends and it was on the whole very well behaved. Not being a DIY'er mechanic myself I have decided to wait until the car is next due a major service and at that point to get fitted some drilled and grooved performance discs from MTEC Brakes - unless anyone has any feedback that would advise against fitting them.

There is a very interesting and informative page on the MTEC website which I would if I could provide a link to here, but I can't seem to be able to Grrr - however if you go to the Mtec website and on the LH side under the articles section click on the link to "Brake Disc fitting Guide" what they say there regarding hints and tips to avoid warped discs seems very plausible and correlates to what I feel is the issues I have with my car. I used to take the first 100miles or so after having new parts fitted , carefully but as I was doing 110miles a day mostly on the motorway it's not always easy to look after them until they fully bed in, which MTEC recommend should be 200miles min.

I will post again when / if I have anything further to add. BTW just sailed through another MOT and apart from this juddering issue I have not had any other problems with my car - she is just coming up to 100K - but now I don't work in the same office and am using a train to get to work I don't anticipate putting more than 6k miles per year on her going forwards.

Gruntfuggly · October 1, 2015

Since my last post in this thread, my brake judder has completely gone. Wierd...

Doody · October 2, 2015

Hi Chris, I'll have to ask him about the run out and get back to you, the hub flange assemblies were complete with bearings and arms.

Damo, I would hang fire on putting what sounds like very expensive drilled discs on if the problem is lessening, as Gruntfuggly points out his issue has resolved itself. Did notice when my problem was at 40-30mph there was little or no juddering until there was some heat in the discs.

As for me, I'm going to run with it as long as it doesn't get any worse. Who knows, maybe it will cure itself again. I'll keep you all posted.

lexus22 · October 2, 2015

I can only think of two factors that would cause damage to a brake disc, 1/ excessive heat (caliper or slide pins problem) 2/ uneven wear ( hub assembly problem) but it appears to be different on each car!

As soon as juddering occurs don't just replace discs (as I stupidly did!), get the run out checked on both discs, as the problem will more often be shown to be on the n/s.

I have no idea if any bushes can cause the disc/hub to run out of true, has anyone had success by changing a bush?

Ken_1 · November 20, 2015

Well, mine is back again after ~3k miles. I got the front discs lathed while on the car. I did this thinking it would compensate for any issue with the hub running out of true. The issue was on the NSF, disc was badly warped prior to lathing. For a while after lathing it was pure bliss but eventually....

Same as others, I feel the judder above 60mph, only when the car has traveled for 30 mins or more and the discs are warmed up. I am really happy that the calipers or sliders are not over heating as they are fine when i pull in and check them for any sign of heat. I have rebuilt the entire braking setup on both sides at the front if folks here recall.

Do others on here feel the vibration in the pedal or the steering wheel or both? Wear socks only to be sure its coming through the pedal.

I also had a lower ball joint replaced on the NSF and wonder if its somehow linked....

The comment from Lexus about the issue being at the back is interesting! I'm beginning to think there may be something in that..Damo2 I would go back!

My stub axle bushings have play and need replacing but the non genuine options on eBay and elsewhere are rubbish by all accounts. We know what Lexus suggest and its big money. But could issues at the back be somehow linked to the front?

Has anyone on here changed their back discs or pads during their struggle?!

I'm gonna drive in my socks for a bit and report back exactly what amount of judder is coming through the pedal and wheel.

My car is perfect apart from this, which is why its driving me crazy!

Surely someone out there has the definitive answer! Chris appears to be the only one to rectify but his fix has not worked for others.

Chris - Are you still judder free?!

Are there other IS forums that might be helpful, plenty of guys driving their IS200s much harder than any of us i bet. They might hold the answers!

Have lexus a website that you can submit technical problems like this?

lexus22 · November 20, 2015

Hi Ken, yep mine is still judder free, must have done at least 10k since hub assembly changed.

Changing rear discs had no effect on mine.

Damo2 · November 22, 2015

Hi Guys

Just thought I would also respond to the query from Ken re. changing the back discs and pads and if it had any impact.

All four corners on mine were replaced at the same time as the 3rd set of replacement front discs and pads were installed, this was not done to resolve any issues on the front end, just that the rear ones were the original ones from new and were worn / corroding on the back of the disc and therefore needed doing as well. I was putting approx 22k miles a year on the car back then and it had done over 50k+, so it didn't seem unreasonable that they needed replacing.

Current status of mine is I notice it only intermittently now at around 70mph if braking hard to come off a dual carriageway on my way home, this is when the discs have had chance to get warm - as per my previous post it is not aggressive as it used to be and as I am not doing anywhere near the mileage I used to, 30miles a day on average tops which in the main is my round trip to the station, I have decided to live with it for now.

As a point of interest - All the wheels on my car were replaced a few years back with a replacement set from Pristine alloys near Milton Keynes (highly recommend these guys), as the original alloys had corroded and let the car down in the looks department and I was going to get them refurbished. However this would have meant Pristine having the car for a couple of days which was not convenient for me, so they found me a replacement set and refurbished them instead and took mine in exchange, the caveat being that my set could be refurbished and weren't buckled.

So I have experienced the juddering issue with two different sets of wheels on the car, so don't think it is due to a buckled wheels/s although I suppose you can't totally write it off. However as an aside, the tyre wear has always been even on all the wheels, and I have had quite a few sets of tyres over the years and always have the tracking checked at the same time when I have new ones fitted and there has never been issues there.

PS. I only feel the judder through the steering wheel, but haven't tried driving in my socks, I have though on a number of occasions taken my hands of the steering wheel to see if the car pulls to one side when braking / juddering and it just keeps going straight as an arrow. It's definitely a puzzle!

r3dd3v1l · November 22, 2015

This seems to be a common problem with the is200? Do they with really narrow disks or something? Or is ventilation poor? Wouldn't of thought normal driving would create enough heat to warp disks as often as it current is happening?

Ken_1 · November 25, 2015

Good to hear Chris.

Interesting feedback Damo2. You have ruled a lot of items out of the equation. Interesting your pedal is judder free, to me that means your disc mating and sliders and carriers and calipers must be in very good nick.

A puzzle indeed!

Doody · December 11, 2015

Finally bit the bullet and got new Lexus hub flanges (had to go for genuine Lexus parts, I could only find 2 suppliers in the UK offering alternatives, one was out of stock, the other wanted to do the deal off the eBay piste - sounded incredibly dodgy), brembo discs and top of the line bearings(but not Lexus - too eye-wateringly expensive). Car is driving lovely now but only 500 miles in on this new set up. Fingers crossed.

Ken_1 · December 21, 2015

All the best Doody, please post back here when you have 2000 miles on the new setup.

wakhtar · January 18, 2016

Very interesting thread and thanks to everyone who has posted such detailed updates. I have IS300 myself and discovered the same issue as others have described last year. I changed the pads and discs to Pagid after which point the problem disappeared for around 2k miles. I lived with it for a few months before changing the discs again (eicher-I know) after which the problem disappeared only to return after 500 miles.

I was tempted to change the discs and pads again to Lexus OEM but as luck would have it, my brother had a set of brembo pads which he had take of his IS300 before selling it. I fitted the brembo pads and the problem seemed to disappear again. I am going to be changing the calipers this weekend to see if this fixes the issue.

catnap · January 29, 2016

Mine has started pulsing in slow traffic so here we go again with uneven deposits on the discs.

Should I go for an entire hub replacement from Lexus or get a good second hand one? Are they expensive?
Everything else has been replaced at this point so it can't be anything else.

gdh300 · February 1, 2016

Another victim here, so I am following this thread with interest! My IS300 is on her third set of front discs (OEM ones last time) in my ownership. Before Christmas, following a lot of reading here an eleswhere, I had the discs skimmed on the car (Pro-cut lathe) in an attempt to solve high speed wobble. Unfortunately, in removing the nearside caliper the lower pin sheared, so the caliper was replaced. When everything was reassembled, the offside caliper was 'sticky' and had to be run out and back again before it would operate properly. So, the old girl is booked in to have the offside caliper replaced in the next couple of weeks . And yes, following the skim all was good for about 1,000 miles, but the wobble came back, this time at a much lower speed. So, I can live with it as it is - certainly more than the high speed wobble - but I want to get it sorted for good.Once the new caliper is fitted I'm going to give a few weeks the look at getting the hubs done, if my mechanic reckons the run-out is indeed excessive. But to be clear, when you lads talk of hubs, how much of it are we looking at? Just the axle hub or replacing as far back (and including) the bearing at the same time?

rincewind · February 4, 2016

Just my half penneth on this. When I changed my discs last year (OEM Lexus ones) I had the 'wobble' appear. I bouhgt a run out guage from amazon and the run out was about 4x the limit. It had only begun after the disc change so I took the discs back off, and really really cleaned the mating surfaces of both hub and disc until they were shiny. I then put it all back together and measured the run out and lo and behold - within tolerance. The axle hubs had rust on the surface which may be almost invisible but you can feel it as slight uneveness which was not allowing the disc to mate flat with it. After that, no wobble. Bear in mind that the runout tolerance is tiny - about 0.030mm.

gdh300 · February 4, 2016

26 minutes ago, rincewind said:

I bouhgt a run out guage from Amazon and the run out was about 4x the limit.

I'd toyed with the idea of getting one of those after reading a few things abut 'the wobble'. Them seem a lot cheaper than I'd expected, so the cynic in me thinks they must be worthless. But perhaps I'll look again, which one did you buy?

rincewind · February 4, 2016

Cheap and spot on. I had no issues with mine. This one here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003W4SFSK?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

currently £19.70

gdh300 · February 4, 2016

1 hour ago, rincewind said:

Cheap and spot on. I had no issues with mine.

Cheers chap, I might just get one. Even though I'm meant to saving-up a bit this month!

Doody · February 7, 2016

Got passed the 1000 mile mark on new Lexus hub flanges, new brembo discs and new bearings; all appeared to be well. At 1075 miles however, I did my first bit of high speed driving in quite a while and noticed a very slight judder at 70mph. It has since got worse but not massively. New hubs and discs would seem to rule out dirty or rusty surfaces causing the problem so I'm now really out of options. Think I'll drive these discs until they are ruined, on with a new pair and flog the bloody thing. Damned pity coz I love everything else about the car but new discs or skimming every 1000 miles isn't an option.

rincewind · February 7, 2016

The large bushes on the front lower steering control arms are a known cause of judder at speed.

lexus22 · February 8, 2016

On 2/7/2016 at 6:39 AM, Doody said:

Got passed the 1000 mile mark on new Lexus hub flanges, new Brembo discs and new bearings; all appeared to be well. At 1075 miles however, I did my first bit of high speed driving in quite a while and noticed a very slight judder at 70mph. It has since got worse but not massively. New hubs and discs would seem to rule out dirty or rusty surfaces causing the problem so I'm now really out of options. Think I'll drive these discs until they are ruined, on with a new pair and flog the bloody thing. Damned pity coz I love everything else about the car but new discs or skimming every 1000 miles isn't an option.

So you have fitted new hubs, I assume that this was just the hub and not the complete arm (steering knuckle)?

Edited February 8, 2016 by lexus22
more information

Doody · February 8, 2016

Put s/h hub flange assemblies on at the second attempt to sort this issue. Bushes are all solid, it is only under breaking at 70 mph that there is a judder.

Gruntfuggly · February 8, 2016

@Doody - give it a couple of thousand miles before you give up - I know it sounds bizarre, but mine began wobbling again after about 1000 miles, but after a few more it gradually stopped. I can't explain it, but it's no longer an issue...

Ken_1 · February 10, 2016

Doody - This is a real bummer.

Rincewind - If those bushes you refer to are the issue then why would new discs and pads work for a short period? Surely changing the discs would have no effect if the bushes are the issue?

lexus22 (Chris) - You are still the only one to have solved this definitively! You must be on to something with your complete arm (steering knuckle) theory. That is what you changed correct?

Is the diagram above by gdh300 what you are referring to? Or is there more? I want to understand the entire lineup.

Both myself and gdh300 have tried on car lathe but with no joy. Does this stack up in your mind? I felt if something was "untrue" then the lathe would compensate for it. That compensation factor should hold provided the untruth didn't become worse if you know what I mean!

Man - Lexus should come on here and come clean with what needs replacing! This is the nastiest issue I've ever had on a car. £££ down the drain for something that has to be a 20th century issue.So frustrating.

Like the majority on here, everything else is perfect on my car!