Advice Needed - Gs450H Hybrid System Failure

[SimonG]

Hi guys

I've a 2006 GS450h with 115k miles and full Lexus service history with the local Lexus dealer having carried out the past two services - a major and an interim.

Other than many frustrating rattles and squeaks with the car and an annoying valve rattle the dealer cannot seem to fix the car has run well over the last 12 months of ownership and I regularly get an average of 35mpg on a mixed run.

Earlier this week during rain (after several weeks of dry) when being stuck in traffic for 30 mins a "Check Hybrid System" error appeared on the dash but the car continued to run as normal of engine and Battery.

I took in to in Poole Lexus yesterday and they've just called to say that the hybrid system has failed (receptionist wasn't clear if it was batteries or other part) and that the bill was going to be several thousand £'s but they didn't have a final figure as they wanted to speak with Lexus to see if they would contribute anything towards it.

It seems odd that the system would fail but continue to run normally so has anyone else experienced this?

Also, as the car has had its last 2 services at the main dealer my understanding was that they do a health check free with the service and then warranty the system for another 12 months - does this sound correct?

My only concern is that the dealer has never provided me with a hybrid health heck report so I'm starting to wonder if they actually did the test on the last two services!?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Simon G

[ColinBarber]

Firstly you need to ask your dealer exactly what the issue is.

The health check warranty only covers the batteries so this may or may not help you depending on what the fault is. At this stage I can only speculate that there is a problem with the transmission rather than the batteries or motor based on other member's experiences.

[SimonG]

Hi

As the dealer needed their loan car back they have confirmed that it it safe to drive my car whilst they escalate to Lexus to see what they think the issues is, although they seem confident that it's the batteries even though they have confirmed that the health check carried out at the last service (8k miles ago) was clear.

They do seem a little surprised by the issue as they have not had any other hybrid failures other than an RX450h that had failed batteries due to water damage as the result of the sunroof being left open for some time.

The car seems to run fine but the MPG has definitely dropped and although it will run fine on Battery any slight incline kicks in the engine even with a full charge so maybe there is some underlying issue - around town MPG has dropped to low 20's.

Hopefully it's not a transmission issue as I return to work on Monday and will have a 35 mile motorway commute each way.

The dealer seems confident that we have a good case for getting assistance from Lexus on this issue so fingers crossed and I'll let you know the outcome.

Cheers

Simon G

[LexIS200Sport]

Good luck mate and keep us posted. Hope this is resolved soon. :)

[ColinBarber]

failures are rare but have occurred before

http://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/forum/topic/92120-sad-day-for-my-450h/

[SimonG]

I'm still waiting to hear from Lexus but on my commute to work this morning the "Check VSC" & "Check ERB" errors popped up but disappeared a few minutes later.

Is this related toe the "Check Hybrid" error or a sign that my car is rapidly dying?

I've also noticed that after about 10 minutes of driving the Energy display animations stop even though you can feel the car switching from engine to Battery etc.

MPG is definitely down as the engine kicks in more often even with a full Battery charge but having said that I did manage to get 39mpg on a mixed 30 mile commute this morning.

[tonyricha]

Hi Simon, please read topic " Sad day for my 450h " and the one beside it. Seems the wheels are falling off these cars and Lexus are trying to deny there is a problem by being completely unhelpful

Good luck with yours.

[SimonG]

Sorry to hear of your issues Tony - I must admit that I'm surprised that Lexus weren't willing to help more.

I'm hoping I get a more positive outcome or this will be my first and last Lexus.

The dealer is still waiting for a response from Lexus UK so I still have everything crossed

[tonyricha]

This was my 4th and last Lexus!

[royoftherovers]

Toyota (Prius) cars built between 2004 and 2007 were recalled for the Hybrid pump to be replaced. Cars sold in USA, EUROPE AND JAPAN WERE AFFECTED.

The problems now being reported by a small but increasing number of GS450h owners, all seem to be on cars built within the period to which the Prius problems relate and it is possible that it is the same problem. There is a fault code (POA93) which keeps recurring.

This fault code has appeared on at least one GS 450 h and I feel that owners should demand to be told the fault codes which are showing on their Lexus cars. To be told it is the Hybrid system when it could well only be the Hybrid pump needs investigation and Tony Richa has in another post said as much.

Good luck to all.

Regards

John

[ColinBarber]

Toyota (Prius) cars built between 2004 and 2007 were recalled for the Hybrid pump to be replaced. Cars sold in USA, EUROPE AND JAPAN WERE AFFECTED.

The problems now being reported by a small but increasing number of GS450h owners, all seem to be on cars built within the period to which the Prius problems relate and it is possible that it is the same problem. There is a fault code (POA93) which keeps recurring.

This fault code has appeared on at least one GS 450 h and I feel that owners should demand to be told the fault codes which are showing on their Lexus cars. To be told it is the Hybrid system when it could well only be the Hybrid pump needs investigation and Tony Richa has in another post said as much.

Good luck to all.

Regards

John

This isn't the same issue. The Prius recall was related to the hybrid cooling/water pump. This particular issue is related to the electric transmission fluid pump - the Prius doesn't even have this type of pump, it seems to be unique to the GS (and possibly LS)

[SimonG]

Still waiting for a proper answer from Lexus re this issue but a couple of updates on the symptoms.

The dealer has told me twice that it is safe to drive the car but over the past 2 days of commuting (30 miles each way) the issue seems to have worsened.

I know have constant "Check ERB" and "Check VSC" errors in addition to the "check Hybrid" error.

I've also noticed tonight that the car now seems to run exclusively on the petrol engine and all activity has stopped on the Energy Display even though the Battery is showing 3/4 charge.

I've also noticed some hesitation on acceleration and once tonight I thought the car was going to cut out when joining the M27.

Going to follow up again with Lexus as I really don't think I should be driving the car at the moment.

Cheers

Simon G

[tonyricha]

Hi again, when mine was like this Lexus told me not to drive it so I got it recovered. When I went back all seemed ok for about 40 miles then it cut out completely, thankfully in a safe place. It did re start but without the hybrid system but I never trusted it again.

Good luck Simon.

[Kosc300]

Hey buddy, did you get this fixed? I have an 07 with 133k miles and am running into an issue that may be similar. The car runs fine for 10-15min, but then it won't go over 40mph. If I keep driving another 10min, the car limits me to 30mph. I changed out the trans oil pump controller today. But that did not fix the issue.

[SimonG]

Yes, my issue wa apparently the Battery pack - your issue sounds different as my car didn't go in to limp mode at all but just eventiually ended up running on engine only.

Has the dealer recently carried out a hybrid health elk on the car or have you had the car serviced by the dealer? - if so you should be covered for any failures.

Initially Lexus offered to pay half the cost of £3.6k but in the end agreed to cover the whole cost which was a relief and definitely worth persisting with even if you don't get a result initially.

I've now taken out a 2yr extended warranty on the car to prevent any unexpected bills in the future.

Cheers

Simon G

[Vafiadni]

I got almost the same indications that something was wrong on my GS-450H 2007 lexus. It started almost a year ago with an indication "Check Hybrid System". I went to Lexus and they erased the indication, with their electronic device, saying it is nothing and I should n't worry about this. But should I get this indication again I should contact them.

I not only got that indication but also for small time intervals the other indications "Check ERB. check VSC". I went to Lexus and told them, they erased it again and said they would contact Lexus Japan to check if I was covered with a warranty.

The indication flashed again and that was when I was on vacation in August, but in the beginning of September as I got back and organised a visit to Lexus, the indication dissappeared by itself. I felt happy but it came back a few days later. The car was more or less working properly, despite the indications. Today I took my car finally to Lexus where they gave me the code POA 7F Battery PACK DETERIORATION and told me I was not covered by warranty despite the fact that I only have 100.101 km and less than 8 years of ownership, whereas the guarrantee is for 8 years and 100 K miles.

Does anybody have any advice outthere?

[Zotto]

There is a TSB about it, the "Battery pack deterioration" is NOT the same of Battery total failure, and it happens only on some GS450h, caused but a normal ageing of Battery pack; the solution in TSB is to reprogram the HV charging mode with an updated software. In my opinion the problem could be solved also by a total recalibration of Battery cells that after some years of working could be at different charge levels, unluckily the machinery to make this are rare to find (at least here in Italy), and the procedure to recalibration needs at least 24 hours. The software update is made trought a .cuw calibration file and techstream program, but unluckily I have not succeded till now to find the file, as I have not access to Toyota-Lexus technical site (have to pay for it).

The DTC is P0A7F -123 Hybrid Battery pack deterioration, search in Google and you will find ;-)

At the moment, I (hoping not temporarily) solved the problem resetting many parameters with techstream and making some cycles of charge-discharge up and downhill trying to rebalance the charge in cells on my GS450h my 2008.

In pdf the TSB

575ed3e9.pdf

[ColinBarber]

the solution in TSB is to reprogram the HV charging mode with an updated software.

The solution seems to be a little more involved:

Step 1 - replace the £12,000 Battery pack

Step 2 - reprogram to prevent the Battery from overheating itself again in the future.

[Zotto]

First, the Battery pack is not so expensive,even if for sure it's expensive, but usually it can be reconditioned trought the rebalancing procedure and if a single cell is broken it is posible to change it and not the complete pack.

The calibration file is for the charge module and it just limits a little the max charge current.

Of course, a new Battery pack is a solution :)

[ColinBarber]

First, the battery pack is not so expensive,even if for sure it's expensive, but usually it can be reconditioned trought the rebalancing procedure and if a single cell is broken it is posible to change it and not the complete pack.

The calibration file is for the charge module and it just limits a little the max charge current.

Of course, a new battery pack is a solution :)

agreed, you just are unlikely to get a Lexus dealer to attempt a Battery pack repair - they will just want to replace the complete unit. They should be able to perform a recalibration though on the understanding that they cannot guarantee the outcome will be successful.

[aqibnaseem]

Hi guys

I've a 2006 GS450h with 115k miles and full Lexus service history with the local Lexus dealer having carried out the past two services - a major and an interim.

Other than many frustrating rattles and squeaks with the car and an annoying valve rattle the dealer cannot seem to fix the car has run well over the last 12 months of ownership and I regularly get an average of 35mpg on a mixed run.

Earlier this week during rain (after several weeks of dry) when being stuck in traffic for 30 mins a "Check Hybrid System" error appeared on the dash but the car continued to run as normal of engine and battery.

I took in to in Poole Lexus yesterday and they've just called to say that the hybrid system has failed (receptionist wasn't clear if it was batteries or other part) and that the bill was going to be several thousand £'s but they didn't have a final figure as they wanted to speak with Lexus to see if they would contribute anything towards it.

It seems odd that the system would fail but continue to run normally so has anyone else experienced this?

Also, as the car has had its last 2 services at the main dealer my understanding was that they do a health check free with the service and then warranty the system for another 12 months - does this sound correct?

My only concern is that the dealer has never provided me with a hybrid health heck report so I'm starting to wonder if they actually did the test on the last two services!?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Simon G

I had this issue on my hybrid.

It turned out simply to be the 12v Battery. the one that also lives in the boot passenger side.

It turns out that the 12v Battery supplies the electricity to the hybrid electronics and my theory is as follows.

The 12v Battery held enough voltage and everything was working fine so at first I did not suspect it as the cause.

I removed it and charged it at home and when I put it back in the car everything was fine. The "check hybrid system" and the CEL light turned off.

I noticed that the cells in the 12v Battery had allot of sulphation so I suspect that the internal resistance of this Battery is quite high.

And the lexus is not happy and not able to charge this Battery adequately.

I have since replaced the Battery and everything still remains fine.

[a_triant]

.

[Mihanicos]

The power Battery consists of some 40 cells connected in series to produce some 280 volts dc.

The charging current is in series too, so any resistance in any single connection , just only one, will reduce the charging current going through the Battery.

Hence the Battery will never have its full power.

Simultaneously when the Battery is called upon to deliver power to the converter and then to the inverter, will not be able to deliver the full current possible and available.

The fact that you get the alarms when it rains or when there is humidity in the air, indicates bad contacts on the Battery connections, power cable connections etc.

I would strongly recommend that you access the power Battery, check for any signs of corrosion on all the terminals and disconnect each cell, measure the voltage across each one and record it. You should also check the current delivered through a resistance to limit the maximum current delivered during the check.

To do this work you must have the knowledge to work on medium voltage circuits.

If you do not have this knowledge, it is very dangerous and it can be lethal if you touch the dc Battery terminals. There are special insulated gloves you wear for this purpose.

The Techstream diagnostic scanner would be a great help in pin pointing the problem.

I would be very interested to do this work for nothing but I do not live in uk.

If you look at a similar topic you will find a contribution made by Richard. He repaired the power Battery for somebody and the problem was corrosion on the connectors of the Battery cells.

He has the experience the knowledge and the equipment to help you.

Wishing you the very best of luck,

Chris.

[a_triant]

^Για σου μιχανικέ :)

In GS450h made of 2006-2010 it's a ECU software problem which kills all the modules of Battery! a official update exist, i already updated mine especially for that procedure i bought a MFC Mongoose cable that costs 500$, but i did it too late when the Battery was dead already, i has the P0A7F.

I measured the capacity of all modules, the side modules have about 5Ah as it goes to middle the capacity is decreases, the middle module have 1Ah capacity left...

The document which comes with the ECU update it says the new software prevents the HV Battery from overheating, my capacity shown exactly that this happened from overheating since in the middle they heats more and the middle are the weakest modules!

So with a P0A7F don't expect that you will fix your Battery with changing few modules, 95% of Battery is junk with that DTC.

Alex.

[Mihanicos]

Ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ!

Thank you very much indeed for your advise, mine was made late 2010 and registered in May 2011. I got no alarms yet but I will have the ECU checked and updated as soon as possible.

I am still looking for a Techstream to buy.