The New Is: Sequential Shift Mode

[Argento]

Is the "sequential shift mode" feature on the New IS the same as that found on the current IS-F ?

Page 26 of the "Lexus IS" brochure, Transmission, says:

"6-speed automatic with sequential shift mode"

Argento

[noby76]

i was under the impression all Lexus cars with M mode for IS300 or S mode for both IS-F and IS250's are sequential automatic boxes?? because you cant move from say 2nd gear straight to 5th gear like an H style manual gearbox when one is in M or S mode. you have to sequentially shift up from 2nd to 3rd to 4th before 5th gear just like the gearboxes in an F1 car or Rally car. so do you currenlty have a Sport sequential automatic gearbox in your current IS250? Yes and is this in the IS-F? Yes but with 8 gears and will it be in the new IS? you bet :winky: . So not sure what you meant by will it be the same as IS-F? becasue a sequential box is a sequentail box and they are all meant to select gears sequentially..

[stevet]

The new IS350 (Alas not coming here) will have the same 8-speed as the current ISF.

[Argento]

The new IS350 (Alas not coming here) will have the same 8-speed as the current ISF.

Yes, I saw that we will not get the IS350

That's a pity.

So the IS250 will have the existing six-speeder, I guess.

Argento

[Argento]

i was under the impression all Lexus cars with M mode for IS300 or S mode for both IS-F and IS250's are sequential automatic boxes?? because you cant move from say 2nd gear straight to 5th gear like an H style manual gearbox when one is in M or S mode. you have to sequentially shift up from 2nd to 3rd to 4th before 5th gear just like the gearboxes in an F1 car or Rally car. so do you currenlty have a Sport sequential automatic gearbox in your current IS250? Yes and is this in the IS-F? Yes but with 8 gears and will it be in the new IS? you bet :winky: . So not sure what you meant by will it be the same as IS-F? becasue a sequential box is a sequentail box and they are all meant to select gears sequentially..

Hmm, < becasue a sequential box is a sequentail box and they are all meant to select gears sequentially..>

Not so easy as that I fear.

As I understand it.

On the IS, the paddles only select a _range_ of gears.

On the IS-F its the same, but with a big difference.

On the IS-F you can also select a specific gear.

The car will hold that gear until you, change it manually.

This is similar to the DSG auto-box manual function on the VW Golf GTI, for example.

Hard for me to explain.

Have I got it right?

Argento

[stevet]

i was under the impression all Lexus cars with M mode for IS300 or S mode for both IS-F and IS250's are sequential automatic boxes?? because you cant move from say 2nd gear straight to 5th gear like an H style manual gearbox when one is in M or S mode. you have to sequentially shift up from 2nd to 3rd to 4th before 5th gear just like the gearboxes in an F1 car or Rally car. so do you currenlty have a Sport sequential automatic gearbox in your current IS250? Yes and is this in the IS-F? Yes but with 8 gears and will it be in the new IS? you bet :winky: . So not sure what you meant by will it be the same as IS-F? becasue a sequential box is a sequentail box and they are all meant to select gears sequentially..

Hmm, < becasue a sequential box is a sequentail box and they are all meant to select gears sequentially..>

Not so easy as that I fear.

As I understand it.

On the IS, the paddles only select a _range_ of gears.

On the IS-F its the same, but with a big difference.

On the IS-F you can also select a specific gear.

The car will hold that gear until you, change it manually.

This is similar to the DSG auto-box manual function on the VW Golf GTI, for example.

Hard for me to explain.

Have I got it right?

Argento

Yes you have got right and it does other things too.

Full torque converter lock up on gears 2-8

Won't change gear automatically when you are going round a bend

Something like 10th of a second changes

[noby76]

I am no clever than the Lexus engineers and there was a reason for them to have this feature in the IS-F but in my opinion, I think its still useless to have that feature in the ISF because if say you not in the mood for a spirited driving, what's the point in giving the driver the freedom to select say 8th gear which the transmission ECU will hold when doing say 20mph?? that wont be the right gear for the speed being travelled and if it has the feature to kick down to say 2nd gear once 8th is selected at 20mph and pedal is floored then it deviates the point of having this gear holding feature because the ECU still overwrote the drivers choice of 8th gear and kicked down to 2nd gear to match the speed of 20mph being travelled to the best gear needed to accelerate the car. same applies to when travelling at speed of say 80mph. the transmission ECU will not allow the driver to select 2nd gear because that's not the right gear for the speed being travelled so again its useless to have the gear holding feature in the IS-F.

if this same scenarios is put into the IS300 or IS250 which does not have the gear holding feature, when travelling at 20mph and 6th gear is selected, the transmission will show 6th gear on the dash board but will automatically hold 2nd gear for you because that's the right gear for the speed being travelled and ounce you put your foot down, you are already in the right gear to take off even tho 6th gear was selected. and if keep your foot planted, it will sequentially shift to 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th.

so in a nut shell, one is not loosing anything by having the gear holding feature of the IS-F because driving in say 7th gear at 20mph will labour the engine and use more fuel and attempting to hold 2nd gear when doing 80mph is also useless because that's not the right gear for the speed being travelled.

and if 2nd gear is what's needed to exit a corner, both features in IS300,IS250 and IS-F will let the driver select 2nd during the process of decelerating to the bend using the paddle shifters for the best torque to exit the bend. I have not experienced where my gears will shift up to say 3rd gear during a sweeping bend when I select 2nd as my highest gear so again not sure what the gear holding feature is really for but as confirmed, Lexus engineers knows better than me.

[Derek870]

I was messing around with the flappy paddle things on my IS250 yesterday and it does appear to hold the gears unless you get naughty close to the redline, and I also found you can use them in auto not just S mode

[stevet]

I am no clever than the Lexus engineers and there was a reason for them to have this feature in the IS-F but in my opinion, I think its still useless to have that feature in the ISF because if say you not in the mood for a spirited driving, what's the point in giving the driver the freedom to select say 8th gear which the transmission ECU will hold when doing say 20mph?? that wont be the right gear for the speed being travelled and if it has the feature to kick down to say 2nd gear once 8th is selected at 20mph and pedal is floored then it deviates the point of having this gear holding feature because the ECU still overwrote the drivers choice of 8th gear and kicked down to 2nd gear to match the speed of 20mph being travelled to the best gear needed to accelerate the car. same applies to when travelling at speed of say 80mph. the transmission ECU will not allow the driver to select 2nd gear because that's not the right gear for the speed being travelled so again its useless to have the gear holding feature in the IS-F.

if this same scenarios is put into the IS300 or IS250 which does not have the gear holding feature, when travelling at 20mph and 6th gear is selected, the transmission will show 6th gear on the dash board but will automatically hold 2nd gear for you because that's the right gear for the speed being travelled and ounce you put your foot down, you are already in the right gear to take off even tho 6th gear was selected. and if keep your foot planted, it will sequentially shift to 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th.

so in a nut shell, one is not loosing anything by having the gear holding feature of the IS-F because driving in say 7th gear at 20mph will labour the engine and use more fuel and attempting to hold 2nd gear when doing 80mph is also useless because that's not the right gear for the speed being travelled.

and if 2nd gear is what's needed to exit a corner, both features in IS300,IS250 and IS-F will let the driver select 2nd during the process of decelerating to the bend using the paddle shifters for the best torque to exit the bend. I have not experienced where my gears will shift up to say 3rd gear during a sweeping bend when I select 2nd as my highest gear so again not sure what the gear holding feature is really for but as confirmed, Lexus engineers knows better than me.

Remember the ISF was developed on the track. In that situation you don't want the car to change down for you. I know we don't all go racing around a track but its there if you ever do. I must admit I tried the paddles once and though 'whats the point' and only used auto since.

[Derek870]

I'm with you Steve,its all in the name.......................automatic!

[noby76]

I am still trying to understand the point of it Stevet because all tracks differ with regards to their bends and max speed limits so my question is what advantage does the gear holding functionality bring.

e.g. there are two IS-F's one with the gear holding functionality called ISF-A and the other without gear holding functionality like IS250 and IS300 called ISF-B. so both cars where cruising at 30mph on the start finish line of Silverstone race circuit driver of ISF-A with holding functionality sets his gear to hold in 2nd gear and driver of ISF-B sets his maximum available gears he wants to use to 5th gear now both cars are still travelling at 30mph they both cross the start line and race begins, they both floor the peddle driver of ISF-A is already holding second so takes of in that gear. driver of ISF-B has set his maximum gears to 5th but in reality he is in 2nd gear as the ECU deems 2nd gear to be the best for when travelling at 30mph so this will result in both cars taking off in 2nd gear regardless of ISF-A having the holding gear functionality. because ECU transmission has worked this out for ISF-B driver and kicked it down to 2nd gear. both cars took off on the back straight ISF-A driver is manually shifting his gears to 3rd, 4th and 5th whilst ISF-B driver already has 5th selected as the maximum gear so ECU is working up the gears as well by automatically shifting to 3rd, 4th and 5th. I still cant see the advantage of having the holding gear functionality here.. both cars start to approach turn 1 of the circuit and both drivers start braking for the turn whilst using their paddle shifters to shift down from 5th, to 4th to 3rd then to 2nd gear. they exit the turn and both floor it again now to my knowledge and experience with my IS300, both cars will stay in 2nd gear and accelerate out of the turn so again what advantage has ISF-A gained over ISF-B because they both made it out of the turn in 2nd gear. only difference is ISF-A driver manually forced the gear into 2nd causing it to hold and ISF-B driver selected 2nd gear as the maximum gear he wants when slowing down for the turn and ECU deemed it safe as the descending speed into the turn was about 30mph so it held 2nd gear as the maximum gear for the driver and both cars made it out of the turn in the same gear.

so there should be a time and place to have the gear holding functionality but as per my scenario above, I still cant see it even on a race track.

[stevet]

I am still trying to understand the point of it Stevet because all tracks differ with regards to their bends and max speed limits so my question is what advantage does the gear holding functionality bring.

e.g. there are two IS-F's one with the gear holding functionality called ISF-A and the other without gear holding functionality like IS250 and IS300 called ISF-B. so both cars where cruising at 30mph on the start finish line of Silverstone race circuit driver of ISF-A with holding functionality sets his gear to hold in 2nd gear and driver of ISF-B sets his maximum available gears he wants to use to 5th gear now both cars are still travelling at 30mph they both cross the start line and race begins, they both floor the peddle driver of ISF-A is already holding second so takes of in that gear. driver of ISF-B has set his maximum gears to 5th but in reality he is in 2nd gear as the ECU deems 2nd gear to be the best for when travelling at 30mph so this will result in both cars taking off in 2nd gear regardless of ISF-A having the holding gear functionality. because ECU transmission has worked this out for ISF-B driver and kicked it down to 2nd gear. both cars took off on the back straight ISF-A driver is manually shifting his gears to 3rd, 4th and 5th whilst ISF-B driver already has 5th selected as the maximum gear so ECU is working up the gears as well by automatically shifting to 3rd, 4th and 5th. I still cant see the advantage of having the holding gear functionality here.. both cars start to approach turn 1 of the circuit and both drivers start braking for the turn whilst using their paddle shifters to shift down from 5th, to 4th to 3rd then to 2nd gear. they exit the turn and both floor it again now to my knowledge and experience with my IS300, both cars will stay in 2nd gear and accelerate out of the turn so again what advantage has ISF-A gained over ISF-B because they both made it out of the turn in 2nd gear. only difference is ISF-A driver manually forced the gear into 2nd causing it to hold and ISF-B driver selected 2nd gear as the maximum gear he wants when slowing down for the turn and ECU deemed it safe as the descending speed into the turn was about 30mph so it held 2nd gear as the maximum gear for the driver and both cars made it out of the turn in the same gear.

so there should be a time and place to have the gear holding functionality but as per my scenario above, I still cant see it even on a race track.

At 30mph ISF-B would of selected 5th gear and would of had to drop down each gear at a time to get to 2nd. Where as ISF-A would of already been half a mile up the road.

[noby76]

I see what you saying Stevet. but if ISF-B then limits their maximum available gear from 5th to 2nd gear before the start of the race then the holding gear advantage ISF-A has, has still been chucked out of the window?? resulting in both cars taking off in 2nd gear at 30mph?? I know there is and advantage of having this gear holding functionality but I just cant see it..

[Argento]

I see what you saying Stevet. but if ISF-B then limits their maximum available gear from 5th to 2nd gear before the start of the race then the holding gear advantage ISF-A has, has still been chucked out of the window?? resulting in both cars taking off in 2nd gear at 30mph?? I know there is and advantage of having this gear holding functionality but I just cant see it..

noby76, I'm still working my way through the scenarios you've described in earlier posts!

In the meantime.

<I know there is and advantage of having this gear holding functionality but I just cant see it..>

I guess that you do accept that one of the best ways of using the gear holding feature is when descending steep hills?

I think that's a great way to control the car, and look after your brakes.

Argento

[noby76]

wont advise using your engine and transmission for braking when descending on steep hill Argento.. brakes are cheaper to replace than a transmission. and the brakes are the primary mechanical part which is designed to stop a car so why use something else?? and am not sure how i managed to do this but my gears are now starting to hold in my IS300 .. yes i select 3rd gear in M mode and it now revs to 6200rpm and bounces of the limiter until i select 4th i cant believe this as it wasn't happening when i first got the car. It used to shift up at red line but now its not doing it. so has the transmission ECU reprogrammed itself to start holding gears based on my driving style? i have been driving on ECT PWR continuously for about 5-6months decided to go back to normal mode for a smooth relaxed drive and today i activated it again and in M mode my gears are now holding and not shifting up. has any IS250 or IS300 owners experienced this?

[Derek870]

Not exactlly the same as you but if I stay in AUTO and change down with the flappy paddles, the box then doesnt change up..............if I change up myself into 6th then the auto takes over.........................god I wish a techie type would explain this malarky in english to me!! But as I said earlier it says auto so I'm leaving the stupid thing alone, my muppet brain can't cope lol

[RX-Men-8]

Suppose you're on a track carving enthousiastially at the edge of grip/traction, or even in full drift /powerslide controlling the drift angle with the throttle, you don't want the transmission to go shift on its own, even if you're at the redline.

In reaction to the hill descending above, brake parts being cheaper than an engine/transmission: you'll burn up your brakes on a long descent and have an accident which is even more expensive. You should slow down to the range of the gear that holds the downhill speed and descend without braking as much as possible. It's the way to do it and it won't cause extra wear to your engine or transmission.

[noby76]

yes but the ECT-i transmissions in the Lexus's are intelligent so they can detect when going up hill or down hill and shift down to hold gears for the driver resulting in more engine braking during a descend of a hill.

now i can see where gear holding comes into play by the drifting scenario. good thing my IS300 comes with 2nd and 3rd gear on the shift gaiter its self. slot it to 2 or 3 and it will stay there all day long for drifting :) .

[Argento]

wont advise using your engine and transmission for braking when descending on steep hill Argento.. brakes are cheaper to replace than a transmission. and the brakes are the primary mechanical part which is designed to stop a car so why use something else?? and am not sure how i managed to do this but my gears are now starting to hold in my IS300 .. yes i select 3rd gear in M mode and it now revs to 6200rpm and bounces of the limiter until i select 4th i cant believe this as it wasn't happening when i first got the car. It used to shift up at red line but now its not doing it. so has the transmission ECU reprogrammed itself to start holding gears based on my driving style? i have been driving on ECT PWR continuously for about 5-6months decided to go back to normal mode for a smooth relaxed drive and today i activated it again and in M mode my gears are now holding and not shifting up. has any IS250 or IS300 owners experienced this?

<wont advise using your engine and transmission for braking when descending on steep hill Argento.. brakes are cheaper to replace than a transmission>

Ok, noted.

But would you still keep using only brakes going down a steep hill, in the _snow_ ?

<yes i select 3rd gear in M mode and it now revs to 6200rpm and bounces of the limiter until i select 4th .... >

But is this exactly what you would expect, isn't it?

I'm not familiar with what M mode does in your car.

I'm guessing its the same as the paddles or S shift lever mode in my F-Sport.

You have manually selected gear _range_ 1 - 3

The car is still in automatic mode.

But you've restricted it to using gears 1 - 3

Therefore, the car will hold 3 gear as you accelerate.

Bouncing off the rev limiter each time you hit the rev limit.

Have I got this right?

If so, I'd better apply for a job in Tokura, Japan!

Argento

[Argento]

Not exactlly the same as you but if I stay in AUTO and change down with the flappy paddles, the box then doesnt change up..............if I change up myself into 6th then the auto takes over.........................god I wish a techie type would explain this malarky in english to me!! But as I said earlier it says auto so I'm leaving the stupid thing alone, my muppet brain can't cope lol

Don't worry.

You're in the same boat as a lot of us, I fear!

Why do you think my 400+ page Owner's Manual dismisses what driving in ECT PWR mode does in _one sentence_ ?

The 'technical authors' Lexus contracted to write the OM don't have a clue how key features of our auto transmissions work.

They can't bring themselves/be bothered to ask the Lexus engineers who know, what is going on.

Lexus themselves are also to blame.

They should have sent the draft OM back so the auto transmission was explained properly.

That's why we have to spend lots of our valuable time on forums like this.

Speculating what might be happening in that wonderful piece of electro hydraulic mechanical machinery!

That's my theory, anyhow.

(I feel better now. Ha-ha!)

Argento

[Argento]

Suppose you're on a track carving enthousiastially at the edge of grip/traction, or even in full drift /powerslide controlling the drift angle with the throttle, you don't want the transmission to go shift on its own, even if you're at the redline.

In reaction to the hill descending above, brake parts being cheaper than an engine/transmission: you'll burn up your brakes on a long descent and have an accident which is even more expensive. You should slow down to the range of the gear that holds the downhill speed and descend without braking as much as possible. It's the way to do it and it won't cause extra wear to your engine or transmission.

I'm with you on this.

On both points.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

<you don't want the transmission to go shift on its own, even if you're at the redline. >

Exactly.

Even though my driving competence will sadly, never allow me to drive my car like that.

I'm convinced that's what the Lexus engineers have made available to us, if required.

<In reaction to the hill descending above, brake parts being cheaper than an engine/transmission: you'll burn up your brakes on a long descent ..... >

I must say I thought exactly the same thing.

I know we don't have the same severe mountainous roads like they the do in Europe, for example.

But if you are going down a steep hill and you can smell the brakes burning...,... !

What should you do to prevent this happening, and maybe avoid an accident?

<You should slow down to the range of the gear that holds the downhill speed and descend without braking as much as possible. >

Exactly.

The paddles are great for doing this.

Maximum real control of the car.

Use engine braking.

Great with petrol engines.

Not sure about oil-burners though... :-)

Argento

[Argento]

yes but the ECT-i transmissions in the Lexus's are intelligent so they can detect when going up hill or down hill and shift down to hold gears for the driver resulting in more engine braking during a descend of a hill.

now i can see where gear holding comes into play by the drifting scenario. good thing my IS300 comes with 2nd and 3rd gear on the shift gaiter its self. slot it to 2 or 3 and it will stay there all day long for drifting :) .

<yes but the ECT-i transmissions in the Lexus's are intelligent so they can detect when going up hill or down hill and shift down>

I need to check this.

But I believe that _only_ happens when you are in ECT PWR mode.

That's how it seems to work in my MY11 F-Sport.

Argento

[Derek870]

Typical bloke here, I cannot be ars*d to look in the manual! Lol

I did let myself down recently and looked in the damn manual, but that was only because I couldn't work out how to get my Five Finger Death Punch CD out of the wifes CD changer lol

[noby76]

@Argento

But would you still keep using only brakes going down a steep hill, in the _snow_ ?

my guess will be, if you select say 2nd gear as your maximum range gears, the transmission will hold in this gear when going down a steep hill in snow. because it will automatically detect the vehicle is in incline position and hold the best lower gear for the driver.

Therefore, the car will hold 3 gear as you accelerate.Bouncing off the rev limiter each time you hit the rev limit.

mine didn't use to do this. normally, if say i was activated M mode with ECT PWR it would by default be in 5th to start with i then drop it down to 3rd to overtake a slower car. once in 3rd gear it used to rev to redline and then shift up to 4th by itself as speed builds up. but now it will still hold in 3rd gear in the same scenario and keep bouncing off at redline until i select 4th myself which means its now holding gears.

But I believe that _only_ happens when you are in ECT PWR mode.That's how it seems to work in my MY11 F-Sport

this should happen even without being in ECT PWR mode. only way to test is to drive down a steep hill or uphill with ECT PWR turned off maybe 30-40mph. when safe to do so, try and maintain 30-40mph once you start going down hill keep it at this speed and watch your rev counter carefully and you will notice even tho you maintaining a constant speed of 40mph, the revs will automatically climb up by about 500 or 1000rpm suddenly. this means the transmission has shifted/kicked down to the best gear needed for engine braking based on the down hill road condition. as our cars are quiet smooth you wouldn't feel this transition and its like nothing happened but watch your rev counter carefully and will notice it will climb up in rpm when climbing a hill or descending a hill whilst maintaining a constant speed limit of say 30-40mph. once you get back on a flat surface, maintain the same speed and notice the revs will drop back down again meaning it has now shifted up from say 2nd to 3rd gear. so in a nutshell the traveling speed of 40mph was not changed before, during and after the steep hill. the only thing which changed was the transmission kicking down a gear and holding it during going down the hill for more engine braking and shifting up a gear once a flat surface was detected all happening whilst maintaining the same traveling speed. so you already have gear holding functionality already built into your transmission based on driving conditions.

i still say apart from drifting scenario, the gear holding functionality in the IS-F is pretty pointless in day to day driving or trackday driving because at redline, the engines torque is dropping off so again its pointless keeping it there even when driving a manual car, you will still have to shift once you start bouncing off the rev limiter. why hold it there?

off topic but i am still scratching my head with regards to the throttle bleeping feature aswell is this in the IS250 Fsport? any ISF owners care to explain exactly what this feature brings??

[RX-Men-8]

The point is that when cornering at the grip limits, not necessarily drifitng, it may even be in the wet or snow, that you don't want the transmission to shift up or down unexpectedly. The change in torque to the rear wheels may cause sudden oversteer. Turbo lag is another trickster in this case.