Bye Bye Lexus

[Sterling]

I've had my 2006 IS220d SE-L MM since June but I am changing for a 2009 Audi A8. To be honest, the Lexus is not a bad car and there is nothing major wrong with it. It is just a disappointment. It is a better car than anything in its class, its just not as good as my old 2003 IS200SE. The build quality is just not as good. With the old IS200 being so good, I suppose I expected more from the IS220. I probably expected a lot more times discovering something that was a really nice touch and exeptional attention to detail. I am fed up with the random ratles. One day its the sun visor, then the passenger a-pillar, then the sat-nav screen area, then the headrest, then sometimes nothing for days when the car is lovely smooth and quiet, bearly hearing the engine at 70mph. I bought the diesel as I do about 25,000 miles per year. I had hoped to get 45+ mpg as I am no racing driver and about 70% is motorway, but I get a max of 39mpg. The car only has 52k on it with a full Lexus dealer history. Cleaned the EGR, used fuel treatments, but no difference. 6th gear is no use at all.

Dont get me wrong, it is a better car than a 3 series or a c-class and the equipment levels are superb. And dont let anyone tell you horror stories about the diesel engine and head gaskets etc. I dont believe a well serviced and cared for car would suffer. So it is farewell for now. Thanks for all the help and chat.

Cheers

Kenny

[jpjsavage]

Sorry to hear that you are leaving but good luck with your new car! I was interested in your comparison between the older and newer models you have had. As I have got old, I have found myself favouring older cars for precisely the reasons you mention. Currently, I am enjoying owning my LS400 from 1998 and couldn't imagine changing it for a newer one (even if I could afford it!).

[TonyB]

I thought it was just me!.....But I stand assured by my experience that Lexus just don't make'm like they used to.....real shame.

[ChrisIS200SportTTE]

I thought it was just me!.....But I stand assured by my experience that Lexus just don't make'm like they used to.....real shame.

I'm convinced by this....

[bluenose1940]

Shame you didn't buy mine at the time Kenny, I think you may have fared better, Anyway good luck with the new one. It was good speaking with you at the time. Best wishes for 2013. regards, Geoff

[Sterling]

Sorry to hear that you are leaving but good luck with your new car! I was interested in your comparison between the older and newer models you have had. As I have got old, I have found myself favouring older cars for precisely the reasons you mention. Currently, I am enjoying owning my LS400 from 1998 and couldn't imagine changing it for a newer one (even if I could afford it!).

I also had an LS400 (97 'P'). What a car. Rev counter was the only way of telling the engine was running.

[normski2]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Odd how the 220/200 varies so much on mpg. My son gets 44-52 on a run and 39 round town. I too looked at BMW, Jaguar and Audi A4,5,6 and 8. Presume you have the 2.7 or 3.0 engine. When I tried a couple of 250's I knew what I wanted.

The 250 I have is just fab in every regard. Quiet, smooth, effortless, so comfortable. It is streets ahead of my old is200 Mk1. The mpg is way better too.

The only trouble? Wifey is keen on driving it now...had her first drive with the auto today. Damn it.....she really likes it!

[Silver Arrow]

I thought it was just me!.....But I stand assured by my experience that Lexus just don't make'm like they used to.....real shame.

I'm convinced by this....

The new GS is superbly made...and this from someone who ditched the Lexus IS220d due to quality issues!

[mayur]

I've gone a similar route to you sterling in that I recently changed my 2007 is250 sel for an Audi a4. Absolutely loved the the Lexus, had it four years and it was a very good car but a change with my job meant I needed a diesel and I'm getting close to 50mpg in the Audi in the long run. The only problem I had with the Lexus which I agree with you about is the interior quality. I had all the usual rattles and then some more on top. I got so fed up of them that I had to cure most of them myself. Had both the door cards off for a rattle near the top of the door. I could actually see where the metal clips had scraped the plastic off its housing from all the rattling. Used sound deadening sheets to secure the cables and felt for the clips and it did the trick. Had rattles from the rear screen, dash, central air vent, dashboard, top of the door frames. All known to Lexus and most had tsb's issued for them. The dealers were great but most of the rattles eventually came back.

Was just disappointing to have such a great car with these silly problems. I'd like to think that mine was an exeption but every time I had a new courtesy car from Lexus they also exhibited similar rattles! I know many people have had no rattles at all but I'm just talking from my own experience. It's the fact that newer cars showed the same problems that made me realise that Lexus don't seem to be sorting trim problems through the production cycle of the car. Spoilt an otherwise great car for me. Hope you enjoy the Audi!

[Silver Arrow]

If the new Gen3 IS is as well made as the latest GS, then it will be brilliant! I just hope it has a decent boot and more rear leg room - that was the other area where the current IS isn't very good at all. In fact rear passengers could (and in mine did) trap their feet under the front seats if the driver moved the seat back whilst they were sitting there. Not good at all!

There was too much hard and soft plastic meeting at too many places on the dash - so as it warmed up or cooled down they all expandd or contracted at different speeds, causing all manner of creaks!

[noby76]

Hi Sterling, no car is perfect not even Lexus and depending on what one puts as a priority when looking for a car, there will always be shortcomings regardless of what car one drives e.g one car might return good mpg but wont be as reliable where as another might be reliable but wont return good mpg etc.. I would have loved if my IS300 handled as good on the limit in twisty driving as its equivalent 330i BMW but since reliability was top on my list when it comes to looking at cars BMW/Audi had no chance in my books. Good cars in other aspects though. Even though my 10yr old IS300 does not rattle or squeak when driving, I personally can live with the occasional few squeaks and rattles in an exchange for mechanical and electrical reliability any day of the week.

Since you are getting an A8 Audi, have you considered the LS430? Based on your decision, I decided to play around with some figures comparing the running cost of a diesel Audi A8 against the petrol LS430 over a 5yr period and these were my findings .

59’ AUDI A8 3.0TDI:

Based on 25000 miles a year, and an official combined mpg of 33mpg, the Audi would use 757.5 gallons of diesel a year (25,000 / 33). Average price of diesel sold where I live is 136.9p per litre. 4.54 litres makes 1 gallon so a gallon of diesel will be 136.9 * 4.54 = £6.21. So over a year the A8 would cost 757.5 gallons * £6.21 = £4,704 in diesel cost over 25,000 miles.

1 year = £4,704

5 year = £23,520

This is the cheapest 59 plate A8 I could find on autotrader with less than 100,000 miles on the clock.

http://www.autotrade...u63hp?logcode=p

cost of vehicle + 5 year cost of diesel =(£16,990 + £23,520) = £40,510

Note: this figure is not including vehicle servicing cost and unscheduled repairs like injector/Turbo problems which VAG diesels are known to suffer at a cost of £2.5k in extreme cases.

04’ LEXUS LS430

Based on 25,000 miles a year, and an official mpg of 24.8mpg, the Lexus would use 1008 gallons of petrol a year (25,000 / 24.8 ). Average price of petrol sold where I live is 129.9p per litre. 4.54 litre makes 1 gallon so a gallon of petrol will be 129.9 * 4.54 = £5.89. So over a year the LS430 would cost 1008 gallons * £5.89 = £5937 in petrol cost over 25,000 miles

1 year = £5937

5 year = £29,685

This is a reasonable LS430 with less than 100,000 miles on the clock but we all know mileage is nothing on these cars if they are serviced by the book.

http://www.autotrade...s/200?logcode=p

cost of vehicle + 5 year cost of petrol = (£3995 + £29, 685) = £33,680

Note: this figure is not including vehicle servicing cost and unscheduled repairs like…well I cant think of any mechanical and electrical issues but I have read a few air suspension issues but still rates better on the reliability index website against the Audi A8.

Yes the LS430 has 5 years over the A8 based on their registration dates but will work out £6830 cheaper than the diesel Audi A8 over a 5 year running cost plus initial cost of vehicle. road tax is the same for both vehicles as well and I can bet my money the LS430 will give you all the silence and pampering you would ever need during your daily commute to work and dare I say will drive and sound better than the Diesel Audi A8 even though its 5 years older.

Decision is yours to make as its your money at the end of the day. Good luck

[Sterling]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are not comparing like for like. If I were to buy a similar age 2004 A8 TDI, I could get one for £7495. This would bring the 5 year audi figure down to £31,024, £2,656 cheaper than the Lexus. I am buying a 59 plate as I do not want an 04 plate. The cheapest 59 plate LS on autotrader is £29,995. So really your argument does not hold in the slightest. Also I get a full year unlimited mileage Audi warranty which covers everything. The Lexus warranty will not cover the Mark Levinson sat-nav unit when it fails, which seems quite common. Injector an turbo issues of old VAG group cars have been addressed but were primarily on smaller 1.9 and lower powered 2.0 diesels. Also, the service of a 29 plate 3.0 TDi is £275. It cost me £325 to service my IS220d. God know how much an LS460 costs to service. Finally the A8 comes with HD sat-nav and 4 wheel drive.

[jpjsavage]

Great analysis. I know which I would choose. If you factored in the depreciation too I reckon it would make the choice even easier :).

[noby76]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are not comparing like for like. If I were to buy a similar age 2004 A8 TDI, I could get one for £7495. This would bring the 5 year audi figure down to £31,024, £2,656 cheaper than the Lexus. I am buying a 59 plate as I do not want an 04 plate. The cheapest 59 plate LS on autotrader is £29,995. So really your argument does not hold in the slightest. Also I get a full year unlimited mileage Audi warranty which covers everything. The Lexus warranty will not cover the Mark Levinson sat-nav unit when it fails, which seems quite common. Injector an turbo issues of old VAG group cars have been addressed but were primarily on smaller 1.9 and lower powered 2.0 diesels. Also, the service of a 29 plate 3.0 TDi is £275. It cost me £325 to service my IS220d. God know how much an LS460 costs to service. Finally the A8 comes with HD sat-nav and 4 wheel drive.

what i was comparing based on your decison was luxury and drive and not year of registration. I was under the impression you really wanted an 09 plate Audi hence i was comparing one against an equivalent and when i say equivalent i mean the Luxury and drive of a 5 year older Lexus as Luxury and drive was your priority but if year of registration is a priotiry aswell then yes you are right an 09 LS will set you back £29,995 on initial vehicle cost. given the option of an 04' LS for £4000 against an 09 LS for £30,000 I know where my money will go. dont get me wrong and I am not in any way trying to get you to change your mind as its your money. Audi's are great cars and well built than BMW in my opinion aswell but thought there might be some money to be saved if one goes for a 5 year older LS430 over an 09 Audi A8. but if date of registration, HD screen and 4 wheel drive is a priority then would make sense to go for the Audi by all means. :)

[Exdee]

Good choice man. A8's are pretty much as rare as Lexus's so at least you won't be a face in the crowd. My only concern with Audi was the fault prone CVT transmission but I think they have managed to fix it on the 2009> cars.

Happy motoring!

[Sterling]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are not comparing like for like. If I were to buy a similar age 2004 A8 TDI, I could get one for £7495. This would bring the 5 year audi figure down to £31,024, £2,656 cheaper than the Lexus. I am buying a 59 plate as I do not want an 04 plate. The cheapest 59 plate LS on autotrader is £29,995. So really your argument does not hold in the slightest. Also I get a full year unlimited mileage Audi warranty which covers everything. The Lexus warranty will not cover the Mark Levinson sat-nav unit when it fails, which seems quite common. Injector an turbo issues of old VAG group cars have been addressed but were primarily on smaller 1.9 and lower powered 2.0 diesels. Also, the service of a 29 plate 3.0 TDi is £275. It cost me £325 to service my IS220d. God know how much an LS460 costs to service. Finally the A8 comes with HD sat-nav and 4 wheel drive.

what i was comparing based on your decison was luxury and drive and not year of registration. I was under the impression you really wanted an 09 plate Audi hence i was comparing one against an equivalent and when i say equivalent i mean the Luxury and drive of a 5 year older Lexus as Luxury and drive was your priority but if year of registration is a priotiry aswell then yes you are right an 09 LS will set you back £29,995 on initial vehicle cost. given the option of an 04' LS for £4000 against an 09 LS for £30,000 I know where my money will go. dont get me wrong and I am not in any way trying to get you to change your mind as its your money. Audi's are great cars and well built than BMW in my opinion aswell but thought there might be some money to be saved if one goes for a 5 year older LS430 over an 09 Audi A8. but if date of registration, HD screen and 4 wheel drive is a priority then would make sense to go for the Audi by all means. :)

What it also proves is that the depreciation on a Lexus LS is much much worst than an A8

[Sterling]

I thought it was just me!.....But I stand assured by my experience that Lexus just don't make'm like they used to.....real shame.

I'm convinced by this....

The new GS is superbly made...and this from someone who ditched the Lexus IS220d due to quality issues!

Agreed. I have had a full day with a GS250 and it is fantastic. I have decided on 2 years with the A8 and then hopefully the GS450h Premium on the used market will be affordable.

[Silver Arrow]

And the Audi has Condition Based/Long Life servicing, so probably needs servicing every 2 years. All the rumours and fears of longer servicing=more wear and failures are un-founded. They are pretty much bullet-proof. Good choice!!

I think our posts crossed lol. I am doing the opposite - 4-6 years of GS250 and then the Audi A8 for me!!

[Sterling]

And the Audi has Condition Based/Long Life servicing, so probably needs servicing every 2 years. All the rumours and fears of longer servicing=more wear and failures are un-founded. They are pretty much bullet-proof. Good choice!!

Yes, long life service works out about 19k miles depending on the driving. With me being about 70% motorway at 70-75 with cruise on, I'm sure servicing will be very reasonable over my ownership.

[Sterling]

Good choice man. A8's are pretty much as rare as Lexus's so at least you won't be a face in the crowd. My only concern with Audi was the fault prone CVT transmission but I think they have managed to fix it on the 2009> cars.

Happy motoring!

I have done a lot of research before my purchasae and all hint of issues were addressed for 09 onwards cars. But you do have to be open minded about what you read on the internet. If you believed all you ever read about the IS220d, nobody would every buy one. Which is total nonsense as they are good cars...............................just the wrong gearbox.

[noby76]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You are not comparing like for like. If I were to buy a similar age 2004 A8 TDI, I could get one for £7495. This would bring the 5 year audi figure down to £31,024, £2,656 cheaper than the Lexus. I am buying a 59 plate as I do not want an 04 plate. The cheapest 59 plate LS on autotrader is £29,995. So really your argument does not hold in the slightest. Also I get a full year unlimited mileage Audi warranty which covers everything. The Lexus warranty will not cover the Mark Levinson sat-nav unit when it fails, which seems quite common. Injector an turbo issues of old VAG group cars have been addressed but were primarily on smaller 1.9 and lower powered 2.0 diesels. Also, the service of a 29 plate 3.0 TDi is £275. It cost me £325 to service my IS220d. God know how much an LS460 costs to service. Finally the A8 comes with HD sat-nav and 4 wheel drive.

what i was comparing based on your decison was luxury and drive and not year of registration. I was under the impression you really wanted an 09 plate Audi hence i was comparing one against an equivalent and when i say equivalent i mean the Luxury and drive of a 5 year older Lexus as Luxury and drive was your priority but if year of registration is a priotiry aswell then yes you are right an 09 LS will set you back £29,995 on initial vehicle cost. given the option of an 04' LS for £4000 against an 09 LS for £30,000 I know where my money will go. dont get me wrong and I am not in any way trying to get you to change your mind as its your money. Audi's are great cars and well built than BMW in my opinion aswell but thought there might be some money to be saved if one goes for a 5 year older LS430 over an 09 Audi A8. but if date of registration, HD screen and 4 wheel drive is a priority then would make sense to go for the Audi by all means. :)

What it also proves is that the depreciation on a Lexus LS is much much worst than an A8

not when an 09 LS fetches £30,000 compared to an 09' A8 going for £17,000...in order to get an accurate yearly depreciation % figure we would need to know how much both cars were being sold brand new back in 09 but based on resale values going on Autotrader the LS looks like its holding its value well.. then again regardless of what one drives thier car will depreciate by the year hence i personally buy cars which are 5 years or older as they have done most or all of thier depreciation roughly after thier 5th year but like i said Sterling, go with what ever car you feel like driving.. I was just playing with some figures by comparing a Luxury 5 year older LS against your choice and came up with those results. Enjoy the A8 :winky:

[Sterling]

Are you American by any chance?

[noby76]

not sure if the question was for me Sterling? but yeh lived there for a while during my teenage years! why do you ask?

[Silver Arrow]

I don't think Audi Quattro's (which most A8's are, hoping your is) have the CVT - they have the DCT or conventional auto's. it's normally the front wheel drive Audi's that have the CVT, Multitronic, which is naff. Even if the CVT is reliable, there is a lag between putting your foot down and anything at all happening, quite disconcerting!

For that reason alone I would avoid the FWD Audi's auto's. Quattro's are the way to go. I also agree that you have to really compare cars of a similar age to make the math work. There are loads of issues with Diesels as they get older, especially those with DPF's etc. You do need to be prepared to spend some money on them over any length of time, which as stated, can eat into any savings at the pumps. It's why I was looking for a petrol car this time around - as a "keeper" for at least 4 years, which is when they can start to show signs of "spend".

Having said that my e60 BMW was faultless over 5 years. 3.0d (525d) which had no issues at all over 5 years, though the forums are full of horror stories. If you look at how many diesel BMW's there are out there, you are bound to see forums full of those stories. People tend to post when they have issues to find a way out.

As far as depreciation is concerned, there is a new A8 out there now (which by the way is sensational to drive), from 2010, which is why the fall in price is high. Wait and see what happens to the 1st Gen LS460 now that a newer model is out. Within 18 months I suspect a 2009 LS600 will be had for much much less than now.