Winter Tyre Advise / Opinions

[fil4362]

And if you look on the "which" web site for preparing yoour car for winter is says check your tyres and then explains how to do this. It doesnt say "go out and buy winter tyres" so which magazine arent exactly promoting them either are they !! they certainly dont recomend you goo out and buy some !

[matt-c]

LOL, how "convenient" you've suddenly got a set of winter tyres, no less actually used them - considering you said you never would. But if you think I'm going to now regard your postings on them as gospel, think again. Even if the reality was you put them on your Lexus, drove it in very low temps, and on snow, ice and slush, and you were absolutely gobsmacked at the difference they made, I wouldn't expect you to post here saying anything other than they make no difference. Because it's easy to tell by the way you post and what you post, you could not post up that you'd been wrong. No chance of that at all.

I'm confused though. You say there's no need to do anything other than drive sensibly during winter/snow - yet you bought a 4x4? Can't you drive a RWD car in the winter/snow? I thought you'd never been stuck because you're a fantastic driver, not because you bought a 4x4?

[fil4362]

Some times i think you dont read my post. I didnt buy the tyres i bought a car which had them on.!! i still wouldnt buy a set of winter tyres. I bought a 4x4 not a set of tyres.

If a car i bought has them on then why would i not use them, i took them of the audi as i really really dont think a 4x4 needs them and stuck them on the Lexus just to see what all the fuss is about. So atleast then in your eyes i will be able to talk abotu them having then experianced them. To give them a fair and honest test so to speak.

The fact still remains i have had them on the car now for 300 or so miles and see no diffrence other than noise in bends ,but as i also mentioned, am willing to leave them on there for the remainder of the winter to give them a proper test as i know driving them this weather isnt what they are for. Will be interesting to go out in the lexus and actually get stuck (and i will look to get stuck) then tow it out in the audi !!! see if a 4x4 with standard tyres costing 350 is better in the snow than the lexus with 400 quid tyres on!

The guy i bought the Audi of is a memeber of this site so he can/could confirm i bought the car including the tyres.

[matt-c]

Yes I read your post, and understood entirely you didn't buy them.

I wonder though, if you go out in the Lexus, in the snow, with the aim of getting stuck - if you don't get stuck, will that be down to the tyres, or to your fantastic driving skills you've told us all about?

[fil4362]

You see matt i do follow some of the guide lines set down by some eu countries like the real cold weather countries that using skid pan and learning how to control a car in a slide is part of the test before your given a liecence to drive.

I have had rear wheel drive cars for as long as i can rememeber i have had a string of rs 2000 escorts mark one and mark two. I have had capri,s sierras e30 e36 and e46 bmws all were, at some point, taken to the skid pans at the bus depot where my dad worked for years i have spent many hours clowning around in the wet snow slush loosing control on perpose. This may seem to most like boy racers messing about in super market car parks after hours, but when a car slides i can control it as i have practiced it many many times. Power sliding or drifting as some people call it is a very very hard thing to do finding the balance is very difficult, in the mean time trying you learn what is to much lock whats not enough lock and you get a feel that the car is going to break traction before it does you get to know what level of grip you actually have. Now to most this may seem like irisponsable driving , but on a closed skid pan or a closed car park what harm is done. Yes i belive its made me a better driver as anything you do over and over again does improve you i do drive diffrently on winter roads as there are other road users to concider and me "getting the tale out" on a public road how ever confortable i am with it may and probably will scare the hell out of another road user. I see the snow as a time to play not a time to stay home and be scared to go out.

As for the Audi it was bought to get me through the winter as the Lexus is useless in the snow. It will also get used as a tow car for my work as its fitted with a tow bar. I am also, if you bothered to read my profile, and out door pursuits instructor as a hobby. Caving does involve going of road, crossing farmers feilds using dirt tracks and un made roads, canoeing involves towing a trailer full of canoes neither of which is even remotely possible in the Lexus in the snow. My hobbies dont really suit the Lexus even in summer but as i dont plan on stopping in the winter then a suitable replacement for the winter had to be sought.

Its also cheaper than a set of winter tyres and i dont have to store it for the summer as i know it will sell on again when the sun comes out so its an all round better option then winter tyres. If i did just drive on the roads i wouldnt have bothered as since i have been driving,20 ish years i havnt bothered using winter tyres and am only testing them now as the were free i certainly wouldnt buy some.

I also have an Audi a4 convertable which i refuse to drive with the roof on as thats the point of a convertable. I also own an aw11 toyota mr2,the pre glass roof version, (rear wheel drive) as some days i dont have to carry anything and just need a drive. I also have a toyota people carrier for when i have to go out with the wife and kids as 6 of us dont fit in any of the cars. These cars are the reason i dont have space to store "extra" wheels for the winter as both my garages are full of cars. You see its not even the question of money as with a 5 bed house with 2 double garages i clearly can afford them i just choose not to.

The topic is now compleatly useless and pointless as you refused all my points about millions of miles driven without winter tyres by thousands of proffesional drivers. You seem to ignore the fact that no one i can find (or anyone else can find) has bothered to carry out a study of the use of winter tyres in the uk including the AA and Rospa. and by study i dont mean a motoring journalist have a car for a few weeks with them on. I now have a set of winter tyres and you still refuse my listen to my testimony about them. And no i dont now claim to be an expert on them as i own a set as one night drive in cold conditions doesnt constitute a proper test,the rest of the miles done on them so far is in "normal weather" and i wouldnt expect to see anydiffrence. You and everyone else has declined the offer to show me one person, who doesnt benifit from the tyre industry, who will unaquivically say "yes winter tyres are a must for all uk drivers"

The only thing i can find is "they work better in cold conditions". does this mean when the temp gets below 7 my normal tyres stop working ? The reports i have read and have been posted on here by other posters all say "may" help,, thats "may" not oh yes get some there great!

once again i cannot find one expert, and i have looked, who says yes go out and buy them so its a question of personal choice "jump on the band wagon" (words used by the northwest biggest tyre supplier) or just manage like millions of road users have done for over a hundred years . until i see proof, thats proof in this country, not a video from canada,or read a report from an expert or two about them i wont be jumping on the band wagon and buying some. i will however keep trying the ones i have now and if i see an improvement in them then i may well buy them next year,although its still cheaper to buy a 4x4.

[matt-c]

As for the Audi it was bought to get me through the winter as the Lexus is useless in the snow.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! All this time you've been telling us how good a driver you are and never got stuck, inferring it's your driving skills, but now we find out it's because you buy a 4x4 car? And all this time people on here have been posting about fitting winter tyres onto RWD cars, some very specifically about our Lexus', and myself indeed referring only to my Lexus (as I've never fitted winter tyres to any of the FWD cars I've had prior to my Lexus), and talking about how winter tyres can help with a RWD car like a Lexus (or Merc, or BM), and you've had us thinking you've been out in all weathers, feet of snow and ice in your Lexus and never been stuck (because you're a driving god) - and now all of a sudden you let slip the Lexus is useless in the snow?!?! AHAHAHA, that's funny! You're a funny guy! Oh, that has made me smile, LOL!

No wonder I disregard everything you say!

Ohohohohohoh, still chuckling!

[fil4362]

Read the post again towing a trailer,driving across fields and unmade roads This is why the Lexus is useless and the snow makes it worse. the post actually says the lexus hardley suits my needs in the summer. I have never been stuck in the Lexus in the snow not on the public highways. If you read the post it clearly states the reasons i bought the Audi and non of them are for normal driving on normal roads.

You also agree the lexus is useless in the snow which is exactly why you have been ranting on with your ill informed rubbish about having them fitted. If the lexus was great in the snow there wouldnt be any need for this entire thread would there?

Your entire information about them is based on someone saying "i had them last year and didnt get stuck" you have never owned a set never driven on a set cant find anyone who recomends them and manage 40,000 miles a year without them which is exactly my point, you can, which you have proven your self manage with out them

When you can show me one person, one expert that whole heartedly and un reservidly recomends the use of winter tyres in this country for all road users then i may take note of them

i have spent 23 years selling an fitting tyres along with every other aspect of the motor trade .

You dont think if i saw any merit in winter tyres i happly would be recomending them to all my customers and making a fortune on them? I couldntt hand on heart admit "yes sir you certainly need them " and neither can anyone else say that

Once again show me one person, one expert that whole heartedly and un reservidly recomends the use of winter tyres in this country for all road users.

[matt-c]

I suggest, before trying to wriggle out of making yourself look exceptionally foolish (which you've already done), you read again what you wrote. You wrote "the Audi was bought to get me through the winter as the Lexus is useless in the snow". What that says is, well, precisely that; you need the Audi to get you through (be able to drive) during the winter (snow), because the lexus is useless (can't drive) in the snow. If you meant something else, you should have said that - we are not mind readers; we can't guess you say one thing but mean another.

I'm still chuckling at you though - made me evening that has! Oh ho ho! What a twit!

[fil4362]

it does explain why you think winter tyres a great though matt you read one line of text and asume you know everything about the subject.

The rest of the paragraph goes on abotu where and how i have to drive and why the Lexus just isnt going to do the job and then explains that it only just does the job in summer ........

suggest you read your posts again

I do 40,000 miles a year and havnt used winter tyres ??? dont need them do you ??

Once again show me one person, one expert that whole heartedly and un reservidly recomends the use of winter tyres in this country for all road users.

[matt-c]

LOLOLOLOLOL :D You're really running out of steam here Phil, and just digging yourself deeper and deeper in your pit of foolishness! :D

Of course the Lexus won't be a good tow car from driving across muddy fields pulling things - it wasn't designed to be! But we aren't talking about an IS200 in that context, and you'd be even more foolish than I already think you are if you are trying to turn it that way. We are talking about fitting winter tyres to a car that you yourself say is rubbish in the snow, in an attempt, a hope, or as some have stated, a fact, at making it better at driving in the snow on roads - not fields, or towing

However, with that said, seeing as most winter tyres are designated M+S (which, as you're an expert, you know this stands for mud and snow), don't you think there's a possibility that M+S designated tyres might give some extra grip in the muddy fields?

Hahahaha Phil. You've absolutely proven you are completely here for the argument, no matter what the subject or points are - and when your points are countered and your foolishness revealed, you try to change direction to continue an argument. And that my ill-learned friend, is what makes you the biggest fool of all! :D

(still chuckling :D )

[fil4362]

40,000 miles a year with them you just dont need them do you ??

and i once again refer you to my previous request

show me one person, one expert that whole heartedly and un reservidly recomends the use of winter tyres in this country for all road users

you cant can you because no one does go ahead go look for one to post go find some eveidance that supports your claim about winter tyres.

mine and your arguement is irrelivant as you have already said you wouldnt believe me no matter what i said

stick to putting in wondows for the AA matt you know the AA the biggest motoring organisation in europe ,,,,,,That doesnt use or recomened wniter tyres either

show me one person, one expert that whole heartedly and un reservidly recomends the use of winter tyres in this country for all road users

[matt-c]

Oh dear oh dear Philis.... Oh DEAR oh dear :D

[micker35]

Hi Folks,

I'd like to thank all that have contributed to this thread (both positively and negatively). What I was hoping for was some advice on what tyres people would recommend and how much they payed for them. Unfotunately the thread has become too much of a battleground for anyone to pick any useful information out of it and so, would it be possible for a moderator to close it.

Once again, thank you to all contributors,

Cheers,

Mick.

[noby76]

Hi micker35 if you feel you need winter tyres there no point getting another persons view just shop around your self and pick the ones you can afford. Good luck :)

[fil4362]

http://i232.photobuc...62/phone114.jpghttp://i232.photobuc...62/phone116.jpgi think you can clearly see from those pictures that the standard tyres gives better grip than the winter tyre.this is the new industry standard labeling for tyres and has recently been governmently approved as the correct guide lines for efficiancy grip and noise. now if anyone wants to argue with the simple facts i place before you, you must be suggesting the test is wrong and the governments new system is wrong and un fair.

[TigerFish]

http://i232.photobuc...62/phone114.jpghttp://i232.photobuc...62/phone116.jpgi think you can clearly see from those pictures that the standard tyres gives better grip than the winter tyre.this is the new industry standard labeling for tyres and has recently been governmently approved as the correct guide lines for efficiancy grip and noise. now if anyone wants to argue with the simple facts i place before you, you must be suggesting the test is wrong and the governments new system is wrong and un fair.

Have you actually done any research on this? Clearly not as you posted all that clap trap before and it is cobblers. Showing a picture of the label doesn't make it anymore useable or correct than last time you mentioned them. The tests don't test like for like in equal conditions, they are ludicrous. At best you can only use them to compare winters with winters, summers with summers.

Now all that aside, taking into account countries where it is law to use winter tyres, are you still saying that they are worse than summer/all season tyres in the conditions they are designed for? Are you really saying that? If you are, then shame on you, as it clearly demonstartes you know nothing about tyres. You can spend as much as you like on a tyre fitting machine, it means nothing about the operators knowledge or ability.

Since when was this thread about proving if buying winter tyres has to be endorsed by anybody? None of your sources say they don't work, in fact they say the exact opposite. All your sources are saying is that they dont consider the cost to be worth while given how infrequent we have conditions that truly need them. that is not the same as saying they don't work.

If an is200 is rubbish in snow (I can't believe all these posts of yours when you knew this all along), how do you suggest improving it? Buying another car is not the sensible or "normal" answer to that question. Nor is buying a different car to cater for every variable in your life. Show me a source that says you MUST go and buy another car for winter conditions. That is as ludicrous as finding a source that says you MUST buy winter tyres. Nobody HAS to do anything that isn't law. Spouting all thy cobblers about size of house, number of cars is irrelevant.

Do they work better in sub 7 degree temps? Yes (that is beyond argument from any source - those daft labels mean nothing for the reasons already covered).

Do you need winter tyres below 7 degrees? Maybe... which is not the same as no.

As Matt says, even if you found those tyres to be the dogs danglies, you won't ever admit it.

oh, and what has all the skid pan rambling got to do with the performance of winter tyres, or any other tyre come to think of it.

[fil4362]

So the fact this tyre labeling is now a legal rrequirement, thats legal, as in must have it by law, you ignore it because its your belief its wrong and pointless?

At what point did i say they dont work , i mearky said over and over again that for the winter we have you can manage without which is exactly what every experts says. Which is exactly why i pointed out the thousands of miles covered every year by expert drivers without winter tyres.

Yes the Lexus is crap in the winter i never said it was good, i mearly claimed right from my first post that i drive to match the weather conditions.

I choose to buy a 4x4 for the winter as last year i lost out on "work" as the Lexus wouldnt do what i needed it to do. Bare in mind the nature of my hobby/work (i do it volantery for under privaladged kids I dont get paid all the time but as its for a charity its technically work) and the fact i have already pointed out the Lexus barely does the job in the summer, this is my need to buy a 4x4 for the winter as i dont want anyone to miss out on a trip because the weather is bad again bare in mind this involves of road driving and totally not normal driving conditions. I manage just fine on the roads in the Lexus. For me buying another car for the winter is just fine, the car is cheaper than a set of tyres it doesnt affect my insurance, and i can get my money back when the sun comes out again. where as you will have to tell your insurance company you have "modified your car" store the other wheels for months and then due to the mild winter so far probably have worn otu your winter tyres and have to buy another set next year.

I also do scuba diving , am i ok to use my boat as the Lexus is also crap on the ocean?

The winter tyres work better in the cold i accept this but does a normal tyres suddenly get dangerous at 7 degrees and a bit wet? no. They work better in the cold better than they do in the warm even the manufactureres say they work worse in the warm dry so of course they work better in the cold but a standard tyre doesnt become bad does it. Millions of people a year drive millions of miles in the winter without them and will do so again this year.

Just for fun the winter tyre listed on the tyre label above was a skinny tyre,accepted by everyone to be better in the snow, fitted to a front wheel drive car, accepted by most to be better in the snow, on a car that covers 500 miles a year as the bloke is semi retired and lives 3 miles from his office. now did this guy really need winter tyres? i gladly sold him some although he only wanted the front 2 at the time of the original order. His son convinced him to get a pair for the rear as well, but then his son is the affore mentioned "only customer" to ask for them.

On a slightly diffrent note i have noticed an increased number of cars this year with winter tyres fitted, but during the summer and just one. Theres a growing number of part worn tyre places in my area fitting them as they are cheap to get in summer. This to more is more dangerous and silly than not fitting them in the winter.

Anyway i rest my case on this post as i am now really bored with it even after giving photographic evidance supported by the new government legally required scheme that they dont always give better grip... once again and for the final time i see not reason to buy winter tyres as they are expensive for what they are and we dont really get long enough spells of bad enough weather in this country to warrent them. I feel that the fact non of the biggest fleet companies use them, emergancy services dont use them, rospa havnt bothered to do a study on them, the biggest motoring organisation in europe dont use them, non of the dealers including Lexus in my area are recomending them I cant find one expert who whole heartedly recommends them and even one poster on this thread admits he does 40,000 miles a year with out them would seem to support my thoughts that for normal road users in this country you can manage just fine without them.

[TigerFish]

I'm glad that as this thread draws to a close, we seem to be getting better information going here.

The legalities of the labels mean nothing to their usefulness when comparing one thing with another. If you research the process, you will realise that the operating parameters at which the tests are done are inherently flawed when comparing tyres that work at the extremes of the criterias. What they show is perfectly valid, but they are not comparable between two different products. Those being winter and summer tyres. Use the labels to compare like for like, youhave a usefull(ish) indicator, use them to compare different products, and you can come to the incorrect conclusion.

What concerned me about previous posts is that someone with a position of influence could tell somebody that they don't need winter tyres because all the experts (a which? journalist is not an expert IMO but that is a different story) have decided they are not worth the expense. The truth is, they work better in winter conditions, and imparting on opinion that they may not help if you don't encounter the conditions they are designed for is one thing, but to categorically insist they are worthless in another. Whether the guy actually needs the winter tyres is not your choice, it is his. If he took your opinion and didn't buy them, crashed his car and that crash could've been avoided with winter tyres, how would you defend your stance? In reality you couldn't, especially if you didn't give a balanced opinion to start with and offer up the fact that they work better in sub 7 degree temps. And no, I am not saying all season/summer tyres become dangerous below those temperatures. What I am saying is that winter tyres work better.

Buying a whole replacement car is your choice. Insurance must add some weighting to the cost, but in the end the combined cost may be less than winter tyres, but a car takes up a whole heap more space than a set of tyres. Likewise, are winter tyres a "modification", that seems to be in some cases an urban legend, in others it may be true, but even your which? experts were out on that one. The decision to inform said insurers is again the drivers choice, but I would wager that an insurer would be on dodgy grounds trying to cop out on those grounds, and would lose if taken to court on the matter.

Anyways, We seem to starting to agree here to some extent or another.

[matt-c]

Just thought I'd let everyone know, I fitted my spare wheels with winter tyres today, and just came back from setting the tyres pressures at the petrol station - and I didn't get stuck once! Amazing tyres!

:D

[LexIS200Sport]

Matt, care to share what size are your winter tyres and what pressure did you set them to? I've got 16" Continental TS810s on mine set at 35psi, but they seem to look a tad under-inflated

[matt-c]

205/50 17's, and am running them at 30psi - at least for the time being anyway.

[matt-c]

Well with an inch of snow on the ground and the entrance to my estate compacted to ice already, as per usual, and two beemers and a merc already failed and abandoned, I warmed the car up, cleared the snow off to bonnet and windows, jumped in and tried to pull off my drive. No wheelspin, no trc light - just pulled away. Turned the 90deg turned and began the ascent up the hill. No wheelspin, no trc light. Got to the top and stopped. Then turned 90deg and pulled onto the main road. No wheelspin and no trc light. Down the road and up another hill. A 5 series halfway up the hill had got stuck, but I just steered round and carried on. Now I'm on the main road, covered with black ice - it's tramping a little off camber, but otherwise it's perfect. Good tyres

[durg]

Why do people think winter tyres are a legal requirement in Germany?? Without your insurance is not valid. In Switzerland if you block the road as a result of not having winter tyres you have to pay all the costs to clear the road as I understand. I think they probably know quite a lot about them over there! And this applies to areas in towns and cities - not just in the mountains.

Fact - without winter tyres my IS300 would not even move off my flat driveway using summer tyres when we have about 2cm of snow. With winters fitted it ploughed through about six quite easily. I owned it for five years and know what it's like. My new IS250 has its winters fitted now!! I wouldn't go without them.

[msiva]

My winter tyres have been great in this dreadful weather. Had to travel few times in my Lexus between home and work daily over the past few days as I worked over the weekend as well.

Siva

[micker35]

Hi Folks,