Winter Tyre Advise / Opinions

[fil4362]

Gentleman let me explain a simple fact matt has yet failed to address..

His own words,,,," he works for the biggest motoring organisation in europe",he" deos so many miles a year hes considered a professional driver.

Hes been fighting the cause for winter tyres since the begging of this thread based on him having used winter tyres for a season claiming with out them he would clearly get stuck.

I would like to ask him how he manages to do so many miles in winter, in his company vehicle which isnt fitted with winter tyres a his employer doesnt see fit to use them ???

[matt-c]

Snow chains. Got provided free from work.

Also, please highlight/quote the post where I've said I've used winter tyres for a season and claimed without them I would have got stuck. Thank you.

[noby76]

which concludes winter tyres was not fitted by your company but chaines were provided to give the normal tyres grip in snow.

[matt-c]

You only just got that? Yes, that's quite obvious - the AA don't outfit several thousand vans with winter tyres. The outlay, fitting costs (twice a year per van) and storage costs would be more that the amount they lose by not being able to get to certain customers (plus they make up a lot of that with the huge increase in dead batteries at that time of year)

Snow chains are provided, however are pretty pointless, in as far you can't drive on ploughed roads (and since motorway and major A roads make up probably 75% of my work driving, that's a high majority), and that in order to get snow chains on, you need to drive the vehicle onto them. Which wasn't possible last year when I got stuck in the foot of snow we had where I live, and needed a Defender to tow it out (along with 6 other people where I live, that all got stuck on the hill outside my house)

So if winter tyres help me out (on my car) even once, and contribute to a better level of grip, even slightly, then I can't see the downside. Especially since I should be able to sell them for close to what I paid, provided I don't wear them much

[fil4362]

Thank you matt for requesting that i highlight certain bits of your post it promted me to read back through a few threads.

Your first post on the thread says you havnt driven with winter tyres ??? excuse me ! your entire arguement has then been based on what ? someone elses thoughts ?or an advert and a tyre sellers website.

My arguement is based on the facts i have posted numerous times.

1 The biggest tyre suppliers in the northwest (my area) only sell one in twenty winter tyres and are this year for the first time stocking them but purley on the basis there is a demand as "people jump on the band wagon"

2 Non of the main dealers in my area including Lexus are saying "we think you should buy winter tyres" or stocking them or trying to sell them in anyway.

3 Not one single fleet company including the biggest 2 in the country use winter tyres.

4 the emergency services all 3 do not use them

5 insurance companies last year refused to insure or requested a premium from drivers who used them (source the AA)

6 i cant find one motoring journalist that claims a significant improvement that us the comman man should go out and buy them.i cant find anyone that is convinced its worth the cost.

7 rospa the experts against accidents havnt bothered to even research them .

You have told us matt you have never used them, you have also told us your van at work runs on "big chunky truck tyres" which it doesnt (6ply light comercial tyres are not truck tyres) you also told us that you cant get a 155 tyre on a 7j rim , erm you can, sure if you look you will find a picture. it was a craze in the tuning/cruise scene a while ago.

You have told us you do so many miles a year that your considered a proffesional driver , well the average person does 10,000 miles a year so i presume anything higher than this is then considered profesional. so doing the maths you do (working on 10,,000 a year minimum) aprox 800 miles a month, including through the winter not on winter tyres as your company doesnt fit them on your vehicles.

Your first post also says your using bought 205 50 17 tyres ??? any reason for the diffrent size? yes a narrower section tyre will work better in the snow but 10mm smaller i doubt you would notice and why such a high profile tyre?? a 215 45 tyre has a side profile of 96.75 mm. your upgrade tyre of 205 50 gives a 102.5 mmm profile! your 10mm of width diffrence seems to make a diffrence to you are you sure the 5.75 mm of side wall wont matter?

i thnk your whole arguement matt has been based on something you have read in an advert on a website selling tyres either that or its just your own opinion based on erm nothing ??? please explain just exactly why you have defended the need to use winter tyres so strongly.

I have defended the "not using them" angle as its quite simple you dotn need them and with a slight change in drivign style can manage without them! as you yourself have done for all you professional career.!!

[fil4362]

matt just posted at the same time and just read your most recent post ,

your right the AA dont use them as to fit all the vehicle would be expensive and difficult to store for the summer, but i have 2 cars mine and my wifes i havnt got room to store 8 wheels and tyres for the winter same as most other people dont have the room either.

explain why you would sell them for the same money should you not wear them out ?? why not just keep them for next year?? who is going to buy winter tyres at the end of winter ?? . one poster says he had some last year and they were good so hes bought some more this year!! he clearly has worn them out and now needs some more this year. they wear out quickly by using them in conditions not suited. They are a softer compound so you run the risk of wearing them out quickly when the conditions are not right, they also work worse in warmer conditions above 7 degrees so you shouldnt really have them on. once again my point is its a lot of time effort money storage for a couple of "proper justified uses out of them"

[matt-c]

Thank you matt for requesting that i highlight certain bits of your post it promted me to read back through a few threads.

Your first post on the thread says you havnt driven with winter tyres ??? excuse me ! your entire arguement has then been based on what ? someone elses thoughts ?or an advert and a tyre sellers website.

Correct. Never at any point have I said I have used them. In fact, at several points I've said I haven't. So did you just fabricate the part where you said I used them for a season, and my claim that without winter tyres I would have been stuck? Clearly, you did.

I mentioned several times, including in answer to the statement you made about not believing the bunch (which is something you then went against and constantly quote) that I'm basing my thoughts on winter tyres on the testaments I've got from other drivers - those that have actually used winter tyres (you know, the people that have first hand experience with them, and because of that can make educated and informed opinions on their validity. Something you can't do)

My arguement is based on the facts i have posted numerous times.

1 The biggest tyre suppliers in the northwest (my area) only sell one in twenty winter tyres and are this year for the first time stocking them but purley on the basis there is a demand as "people jump on the band wagon"

2 Non of the main dealers in my area including Lexus are saying "we think you should buy winter tyres" or stocking them or trying to sell them in anyway.

3 Not one single fleet company including the biggest 2 in the country use winter tyres.

4 the emergency services all 3 do not use them

5 insurance companies last year refused to insure or requested a premium from drivers who used them (source the AA)

6 i cant find one motoring journalist that claims a significant improvement that us the comman man should go out and buy them.i cant find anyone that is convinced its worth the cost.

7 rospa the experts against accidents havnt bothered to even research them .

Oh, so you're quoting the bumph (the bumph you earlier told us not to believe, or pin testament to?). And you haven't actually used them yourself? So you don't have any first hand experience of them, so you can't make an informed opinion on their validity? As I've said before, strikes me as strange to be able to say with such certainty, as you are, that they don't work, don't do anything/add anything, when you've never had the experience of driving a car with them fitted. Would you please tell me how you can come to such a concrete conclusion, based on your levels of expertise, when you've never ever tried them yourself? I mean, I can't tell you that parachute jumping is good or bad, because I've never done it. I've seen pictures, read about it on experience websites, watched videos, and it looks really good. But I can't tell you it is, or isn't, because I haven't done it.

You have told us matt you have never used them, you have also told us your van at work runs on "big chunky truck tyres" which it doesnt (6ply light comercial tyres are not truck tyres) you also told us that you cant get a 155 tyre on a 7j rim , erm you can, sure if you look you will find a picture. it was a craze in the tuning/cruise scene a while ago.

Personally, I'm not into the whole tyre stretching thing, so I wouldn't be putting a 155 on a 7J rim. If you want to, be my guest. I can get into a pair of 28" waist jeans, but it's not comfortable, so I'd rather wear a size that fits better. Or don't you agree with that either?

You have told us you do so many miles a year that your considered a proffesional driver , well the average person does 10,000 miles a year so i presume anything higher than this is then considered profesional. so doing the maths you do (working on 10,,000 a year minimum) aprox 800 miles a month, including through the winter not on winter tyres as your company doesnt fit them on your vehicles.

This year, roughly 44,000 so far. I do about 800 miles a week, give or take.

Your first post also says your using bought 205 50 17 tyres ??? any reason for the diffrent size? yes a narrower section tyre will work better in the snow but 10mm smaller i doubt you would notice and why such a high profile tyre?? a 215 45 tyre has a side profile of 96.75 mm. your upgrade tyre of 205 50 gives a 102.5 mmm profile! your 10mm of width diffrence seems to make a diffrence to you are you sure the 5.75 mm of side wall wont matter?

Primarily, because 205/50 17 are more readily available. There are more listings for tyres in that size than in 215/45 17. And yes, they are narrower (by 10mm, well done for pointing that out, thank you), so as you say that will help too. As for the side walls, I'm not an expert, but I can't see the slightly difference in height (5.8mm by my calculations) having any adverse effect.

i thnk your whole arguement matt has been based on something you have read in an advert on a website selling tyres either that or its just your own opinion based on erm nothing ??? please explain just exactly why you have defended the need to use winter tyres so strongly.

Actually no, as I've pointed out several times, my opinion on winter tyres has been formed from speaking to, and listening to the testament of, drivers that have actually used them. Please, if you are going to try and quote me, at least get it right.

I have defended the "not using them" angle as its quite simple you dotn need them and with a slight change in drivign style can manage without them! as you yourself have done for all you professional career.!!

I'm really interested to know what you are basing your opinion of "you don't need them" on - since you haven't actually used them? And please, I welcome you to my house, park up in my drive, and wait for the snow. If we get the same as we have done the past 4 or 5 years, I would be very interested in seeing how/if you manage to get out onto the main road. (I do find it amusing of you to present yourself as so foolish, to think you know anything about where I live - because, well simply, you don't. But then, coming from a man that can so vehemently say that he knows something doesn't work, without actually trying it himself, it doesn't surprise me)

matt just posted at the same time and just read your most recent post ,

Actually no, my last post was 7:21 - your subsequent post was 7 mins after mine at 7:28 (and your last post was a full 17 mins after mine, at 7:38. I'm sure I've said before, if you're going to quote me, please get it right.

your right the AA dont use them as to fit all the vehicle would be expensive and difficult to store for the summer, but i have 2 cars mine and my wifes i havnt got room to store 8 wheels and tyres for the winter same as most other people dont have the room either.

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe one day you can afford to have a place with enough space to store that amount of wheels and tyres.

explain why you would sell them for the same money should you not wear them out ?? why not just keep them for next year?? who is going to buy winter tyres at the end of winter ??

Maybe I won't have this car next year? Or maybe I might have changed wheels to 18's - those 17" tyres won't fit on 18's will they (or are you going to find me a cruise/craze/chav picture that disproves that?) If I do still have this car by next winter, which I fully intend to, then I will be keeping them In if I do, then they've worked out even cheaper! Because every year I keep and use them, you can divide the initial cost by (ie, £200 divided by one is £200, but divide it by 4, if I use them for 4 years, they work out to cost me only £50 a year! Bargain! Can't beat a bit of value for money eh! Not to mention that every time I use these tyres, I'm reducing the wear on the summer tyres I currently have fitted, so multiply that over 4 years, there's a saving in replacing those too, as they'll last longer. Double bonus!)

As for who might buy them, might it not be someone that's looking to pick up a set earlier in the year, when the prices are likely to be lower, than at the tail end of the year when the prices will no doubt be higher (or don't you understand supply and demand either? I mean, christmas decorations are very cheap in January aren't they, but much more expensive in Oct/Nov/Dec. When would be the best time to buy those, do you think?)

[matt-c]

(part 2)

one poster says he had some last year and they were good so hes bought some more this year!! he clearly has worn them out and now needs some more this year. they wear out quickly by using them in conditions not suited.

Maybe that poster has sold his car, and has one with different sized wheels, so he is buying more for that size. Or maybe he is buying them for his wifes car. Did he specify any of that? Or are you making uneducated assumptions again? (I fear it's the latter, but surely no one would be such a fool as to do that?). But yes, you are partly right; winter tyres, with their softer silica compound, will wear quicker in the warmer summer months, than summer tyres, with their harder compounds. That's why it's advised to run them only in the months where it's beneficial to, I'd imagine.

They are a softer compound so you run the risk of wearing them out quickly when the conditions are not right, they also work worse in warmer conditions above 7 degrees so you shouldnt really have them on. once again my point is its a lot of time effort money storage for a couple of "proper justified uses out of them"

Oh, wait - that's what I said above! It's also something I've said a few times before. You must have learned that from reading my posts so accurately - well done you! :)

I do have to ask (again), why are you concerned about the money I spend, and what on? I mean, we know you aren't going to buy them, so your concern over how much it costs to store them must be about me, and not you, right? Well, to put your mind at rest, it costs me nothing to store them, and it takes what, 15 or 20 mins to jack a car up, remove 4 wheels, fit 4 different ones, and lower it down? I don't know how busy you are, but I can afford that time one Sunday afternoon twice a year.

Now lastly, can I just ask you about this;

This is my last post on this subject

Because since you said that, you've made 4 more posts - all on this subject. I find that very confusing. Please explain it to me.

[noby76]

Guys this back and forth is just bull s . ever since I started driving I have never fitted winter tyres to my cars and I have owned 7 different cars ranging from a little front wheel drive 1 litre hatch to my current rear wheel driven Lex. All these cars have managed the winter period without me being stuck in snow or a ditch as a result of not wearing winter tyres…I actually bought the Lex during the winter month of Jan this year and we did encounter some snow during this month which the car drove OK without wearing winter tyres…I have not driven a car with winter tyres during winter months so couldn’t tell if all my previous cars including my current car would have gripped, kept me out of a ditch or would have driven any better. I am not saying winter tyres are no good or are waste of money in general as industry tests have proven they do have their advantages in snow but I do not bother with them for these personal reasons.

• I don’t see the point in forking out say £200 for a set of tyres I might use for a period of a month to 3 months as I personally think we (UK) do not experience Russian or New york level of severe winter to justify this.
  

• I am not that fortunate so don’t have the space to store my summer tyres during winter months and vice verca during summer months so again I personally cannot justify owning a winter tyre as lack of space wont permit this.
  

• If it snows heavily and the roads look undriveable after looking out of my window, I just stay in without bothering to move my car and as we all know the snow clears out after about a day or 2 in UK.
  

So unlike me, if one is fortunate enough to have the storage space for summer tyres and feels they need a winter tyre then by all means go buy your self a winter tyre. If one feels they don’t need winter tyres and can skilfully drive with summer tyres during winter months but don’t bother moving the car for a day or two when roads are undrivable from judgement like me then save your money and stay at home.

At the end of the day we are all grown enough to make that buy or not to buy decision.

[matt-c]

So would you say that, if winter tyres DO provide more grip, and DO get a car out of a situation it may well get stuck in if on summer tyres, then there they would actually be of benefit, and be a good idea? (ignoring the cost and storage factor, since it's my money and my storage space, not yours)

[noby76]

a grown man like you could make that decision. I did..

[matt-c]

I did make that decision. But that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you would say that, if winter tyres DO provide more grip, and DO get a car out of a situation it may well get stuck in if on summer tyres, then there they would actually be of benefit, and be a good idea? (ignoring the cost and storage factor, since it's my money and my storage space, not yours)

[TigerFish]

lol.... I'm impressed this is still going on.

The tests and bumph show unarguably that winter tyres perform better in cold temps and snow. Not sure why that is still being argued about. The choice of whether to use them therefore comes down to:

• Having the space to store a spare set of wheels (I do)
  
• having the money to cover the initial cost. (I did)
  
• Have somewhere to do the change over (I do)
  
• Have been stuck before (I have - 210 or 300 bhp through 275 tyres is sh*t in snow (gs300 and gs430 figures))
  
• If the owner feels the benefits are worth the outlay (I do)
  

I can see almost no wear in the tyres from the last season. But if there was, it was no more than 1mm based on a visual impression. I never checked tread depth when they were new so can't compare since last season. Based on that, I should get a good four seasons out of them at least - I've no idea what the long term effects would be on the rubber to know if they could go beyond that.

Anything or anyone that says they aren't worth it is purely based on someones opinion that they don't think conditions are severe enough, not that they don't work better in the conditions we do get. Now, based on the fact that it is unarguable that they grip better in cold conditions, even if we never get anymore snow, in an emergency braking condition in cold (below 7-8 degrees) weather, they WILL stop better. No brainer if you have the funds/space/inclination to have them. Just my opinion of course, as someone that HAS had and used them.

[matt-c]

Thank you TigerFish - it's exactly that kind of educated, informed, and experienced opinion(s) that I base my thoughts on, and the reason I chose to buy a set myself.

[noby76]

And everyone is happy :D

[matt-c]

Don't want to answer my question Noby?

[msiva]

Sorry for the belated response. I used Kwikfit last year and the cost was around 900 for a set of 4 (Michelin Alpine) for my IS 250 (2007 reg). I chose Kwikfit then as they offered a reasonable price then and the option to store the tyres. I have booked to swap them again next week.

Siva

[J Henderson]

Michelin Alpins here too and I fitted my Winter wheels last weekend. I work nights and rarely use my car during the day when the temperature is more likely to be above 7C, so it was beginning to make sense to get them on. I probably could've waited another couple of weeks to be honest, but they're pretty-much being used in their optimal temperature range all the time, even this early.

Since I bought them back in June, I got my tyres for a bit of a bargain, plus the wheels (RX300 16's) were pretty cheap too. The alloys weren't in horrible condition, but since they'll be on the car for about 3-4 months, I wanted them to look pretty decent. So, I forked out to get them fully refurbished and powdercoated in gunmetal and treated them to a new set of IS-F centrecaps.

I considered a DIY job using Plastidip, but once I started to measure up how much cost, time & work would be involved, it made more sense to leave it to the professionals.

Total outlay for my winter setup was around £450, which imo, isn't bad considering everything is basically as new (the tyres have 6.5mm of tread remaining). If I didn't bother with the refurb, I would have spent less than £200.

If anyone's interested, I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

[fil4362]

Matt you did 44,000 miles last year without winter tyres ???? is this nto proof enough you dont actually need them ???.

merely stating people other opinions of i had them last year isnt a reason to buy them. I dodnt have them last year and didnt get stuck does that mean you now listen to my advice and buy them.

I have numeroulsy quoted exerpts thoughts on them and pointed out many times the number of expert professional companies that do not use them either.

I have now gather pictures of the new tyre labeling system( That as a tyre fitter of 23 years have access to). Would it suprise you if i posted a picture of a normal standard tyre with a better water/mud/ snow dispercal rating than a specific winter tyre??

Both tyres are the same make although diffrent sizes. Both tyres are Continental so not a cheap tyre. So please explain to me how a winter tyre has a lower rating than a normal standard tyre. Its also less efficiant (enegry wise) and nosier although its half the width of the standard tyre?

In short a 155 winter tyre rates an f in energy/fuel consuption, rates a c for water mud snow dispercal and 71db of noise

yet a 195 normal tyre rates e on energy rates b on water mud snow dispersal and only 68 bd of noise ??

so the standard tyre is better at water dispersal and quieter?? surley not. and yes they are both contintental tyres!!

i have a picture of a buget standard tyre that rates the same as the Continental winter tyre although it rates at 75 db of noise.

so the budget tyre rates the same as the more expensive one.

guys these are the new tyre performance figures the stickers that come on the tyre when you buy them that get removed before you get them on your cars. these figures are put on there by the manufacturers are cannot be messed about with or smudged. they are what they are. if people want the pictures i am happy to post them up but at the end of the day they are what they are .

[J Henderson]

The last set of tyres I bought had the new EU labels on them.

The 2nd category rating is for wet grip, specifically braking performance. Not water/snow dispersal.

[TigerFish]

Couldn't resist reading your post this time... lol.... It was worth it.... not (I won't bother again)

You really ought to research before you post.

Just to throw one of your own sources back at you

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/sat-navs-tyres-and-accessories/winter-tyres/

And then onto the labels. You are not comparing apples with apples. If a tyre is to grip more, it is going to create more friction, that will cause more drag, that will use more fuel, that will give a poorer energy rating. Surely that is bloody obvious.

If you look at the tests for wet grip, they can be done anywhere between 5 and 35 degrees for summer tyres, 2 to 20 degrees for winter tyres. Test a winter tyre at 20 degrees and you will be way outside its operating range and stopping power is going to be compromised. Test an all weather tyre at 5 degrees, you are only a couple of degrees out of its range. The temp range is so vast that it makes the results utterly pointless. When they do a label for summer test, and a label for winter test, at diffinitive temperatures, then we can take some notice of them in this discussion. Compare winter with winter, summer with summer, that is all those labels are useful for.

Noise.... Don't make me laugh.... I don't give a flying f*ck about the Eco warriors and their noise pollution.

Please stop with this nonsense, you really aren't doing yourself any favours.

[ChrisIS200SportTTE]

The never ending thread..... Lol :)

Guys just agree to disagree :) :)

[TonyGoose]

Well at least being in the UK they have a choice.

Across lots of mainland Europe you don't get to choose.

If it's winter then you must have winter tyres. That's the law.

Not just the huge mountain countries either.

Pretty much the first thing people mention when you say "winter" tyres is snow.

Although they DO provide a benefit there that's not all they're for.

TG

[matt-c]

Matt you did 44,000 miles last year without winter tyres ????

Actually, as I stated before, I got stuck (in my works van) in the snow outside my house, as did 6 other people, and had to be towed out by one of the AA snow rescue Defenders.

Also it's a point worth noting, there are a very distinct group of vehicles you see year after year, stuck in the snow, slush and ice. More frequently than any, you'll BMW's and Merc's. Why do you think this might be? Might it be that they are RWD saloon (or estate) cars? What does the IS (or the LS or GS for that matter) have in common with that? Might it be they are also RWD saloon/estate cars? Do you see a pattern here?

You don't often see FWD Transit vans stuck in the snow, although in my line of work, with the miles I cover and people I meet everyday, I do see the RWD ones, along with Sprinters and the like, also stuck in snow and ice...

I have numeroulsy quoted exerpts thoughts on them and pointed out many times the number of expert professional companies that do not use them either.

But you haven't used them yourself. So you aren't an expert. Thus, I disregard any of your opinions.

--

A very good point raised by Tony. Phil, If winter tyres don't do anything, and are pointless, why are they mandatory in so many countries?

[fil4362]

tiger fish thanks for your link did you read this section

6) Do I need winter tyres in the UK?

Winter tyres aren’t mandatory in this country, although they are in other parts of Europe that experience extreme weather for prolonged periods, each and every winter.

The last two winters have seen three exceptionally cold spells (by UK standards), when there is no doubt, winter tyres may have been beneficial to many people. We completely understand why some people, especially those living in remote areas, are preparing their cars for winter by fitting winter tyres. It makes good sense if there’s another bad winter and you don’t fancy being cut-off. If that sounds like your situation, then try to buy the best winter tyres early in the season, for two reasons.

People in rural areas could benefit

First, it's no good waiting until the bad weather arrives, as you'll find you are unable to get to a tyre retailer to have them fitted. Second, the volume of tyres the manufacturers have produced for this winter is limited, meaning retailers don’t have a never-ending supply. When they are gone, they are gone and there won't be more stocks until the run-up to next winter.

But these severe cold spells are unusual. For the majority of UK urban-dwellers driving in normal daytime winter conditions, it's harder to justify the expense and hassle of fitting winter tyres.

Its says "may benifit" thats MAY benifit.

It also points out why winter tyres are not required under law in this country and are in others as like i have said all along winters here are just not cold enough for long enough to warrent them.

Then everyone should read the last paragraph which pretty well ssums up wha i have said all along.

Thanks for yet again showing an expert (which magazie) shares my views that the normal man on the street doesnt really need them. Challenge to all of you !! find me an expert that says yes go out and buy them

. I in my wisdom i have purchased an audi a6 quattro yes the v6 4x4 version. This is my way to deal with any real bad winter we may get this year. a 4x4 not 4 new tyres. Simply put the car is taxed and tested until the middle of next year and as it cost me 350 is cheaper than you lot are paying for a set of tyres and i also know the resale after winter will recover my cost. so i wont be getting stuck this winter and it wont cost me a chunk of change.

Now matt this audi came with a set of 4 newish winter tyres vredstien something or others, i have took them of the audi using my newly purchased 3500 pound tyre machine (what idiot that knows nothing about tyres makes this sort of investment in fitting tyres??) and stuck them on my Lexus. I have covered 300 or so miles this week, including a 12;30 am drive over the snake pass (derbyshire) in a 3 degree hail storm. I noticed no diffrence in grip. Infact the only diffrence i have noticed in this 300 miles is tyre squeal when cornering. so matt i now have driven in winter tyres which makes me an expert does it? it certainly makes me more experianced than yourself. The fact i have been buying selling fitting tyres for years would make me atleast knowledgeabe in tyres.

I once again point out the millions of miles each year covered by logistic companies, emergancy services, postal services that dont use winter tyres. If winter tyres showed as much merit as people claim wouldnt the cost of them be out weighed by the loss in revinue with these companies.

I await the colder weather to give a more "honest test" of the winter tyres as now is not really the weather suited to them even though manufactureres are recomending fitting them from october onwards.

I also await anyone to post up a link for an independant expert that whole heartedly recomends winter tyres for everyone in the uk.

Someone who isnt making a living from selling tyres, and clearly states yes winter tyrres are good for all iin the uk, not just comments of MAY be of benifit to SOME people.