Ls600H-L Gas Conversion

[Paul_Derby]

Hi guys

Owner of LS400 for 12 wonderful years, now retirement looms and I fancy an upgrade to last me however many more years I'm able to see :-)

Am considering an LS600 maybe 2008 / 30k miles (there seem to be quite a few around).

May I ask the following of the members? :

1. What are the likely servicing costs? Can't find any prices on the Lexus website.

2. What's a REAL mpg for the average driver?

3. Has anyone ever converted one of these to LPG? Local (very reputable) conversion company has converted a GS450 but not an LS600, but are willing to do it.

I know I may get hit by comments about "If you can afford one of those you can afford the petrol" but that's the point - it'll be a long-term ownership and I'd like the opulent luxury without the hole-in-the-wallet syndrome.

Regards to all

Paul

[willskoda]

From what I've heard its difficult to LPG a direct injection engine such as the 600 however I noted on Prins website that they do a kit for a DI engine. Worth enquiring but not sure how compatible a gas conversion would be with a hybrid. You may be better with a 460? Keep us posted but deffinately do your research first.

Woohoo - 100th post!

[Paul_Derby]

Hi Willskoda

(And congrats on the 100th post!)

It was the compatability with the hybrid system that bothered me. A simpleton like me might think that fuel is fuel, whether petrol or LPG, but I'm not clever enough to know what the complicated electronics inside the 600 would make of it. I suspect it would be treated at arm's length (i.e. no issues) but it's an expensive car to fool around with, and I'm hoping someone has already done it (and ironed out any snags).

Lexus claim over 30mpg (combined) for the 600. Local dealer says to expect 22 in practice. I'd like to think that if an LPG conversion is possible, I might be running a 5L V8 at the equivalent of maybe 38mpg? That would suit me...

[willskoda]

My LPG system (Prins) takes 2 mins from cold to kick in. When warm the gas system takes .5 secs to kick in when the engine is turned on. Thing is a hybrid engine is turning on and off all the time ie when braking or when stopped and I cant help but think that that isn't going to be good for the engine or gas system - petrol one second, gas the next, then off, then back to petrol then gas etc etc.

[Paul_Derby]

Yes, I see your point. But if the LPG conversion is done correctly wouldn't the engine simply see "fuel"? In which case it's still switching from "fuel" to Battery and vice-versa?

Added to which, my local installer says the GS450h conversion was fine...

I am sure I need more helpful advice like yours before I will feel confident to do this...

[Bluesman]

I don't think the software will allow it.

Mike

[Paul_Derby]

Could be. Have spoken to 3 LPG conversion businesses and no-one knows.

Will keep looking...

Anyone know where I can obtain the servicing schedules for LS460 and LS600h, together with typical Lexus service costs?

Regards

Paul

[oliver261]

My LPG system (Prins) takes 2 mins from cold to kick in. When warm the gas system takes .5 secs to kick in when the engine is turned on. Thing is a hybrid engine is turning on and off all the time ie when braking or when stopped and I cant help but think that that isn't going to be good for the engine or gas system - petrol one second, gas the next, then off, then back to petrol then gas etc etc.

i was under the impression that the new direct injection kits forgo the vaporiser stage that the minifold based systems have. so this may be becoming more possible. exciting thought as what a luxury/value combo that would be.

i dont really know much about the ins and outs of lpg, but when looking for my car i originally wanted a 460 when looking into gassing i found no one did a conversion for it but a company said that they were working on their own system (may have jst been management end) that they were hoping could possibly be applied to a range of engines which previously couldnt be gassed. at the time i dont think prinns had fully rolled out their system and it seemed that a kit needed to be developed for each particular engine. memory is hazy though and things may have moved on.

im sure it was f1automotive i spoke to and he said summer-autumn development. i needed a car sooner so went for a 400. but it may be worth having a word with them

as above, i think the hybrid issue might be seen as a barrier.

just for info the problem with the 460 was that the injectors in the cylinders need liquid petrol for cooling. i believe this could be overcome with the prinns sys. but i think it also has manifold mounted injectors. i think the combination of the two threw up some engine management issues beyond that of a standard install. but i stand to be corrected on any of the above.

[Paul_Derby]

Thanks Oliver, have emailed Prins and F1 and I'll keep you in touch...

Paul

[brendangeorge]

From what I've heard its difficult to LPG a direct injection engine such as the 600 however I noted on Prins website that they do a kit for a DI engine. Worth enquiring but not sure how compatible a gas conversion would be with a hybrid. You may be better with a 460? Keep us posted but deffinately do your research first.

Woohoo - 100th post!

Why bother with the hybrid just go with the LS460 - all that Battery junk is ballast and a large waste of fuel (and I am an eletrical engineer with 30+ years experience:) ) - I am looking into the prins system for DGI - it misses out the vapouriser stage and injects liquified gas. They use it on a racing car and say it is good for 4 cylinder engines and quote it can be used on engines up to 6 liters and up to 10 cylinders. They seem to be working with VAG to develop the system. This seems like great news but the end of my 200K plus miles LS430 because I should be able to get a 460 :)

[scythe]

all that battery junk is ballast and a large waste of fuel

hahahahahahahahahaha!

That's engineering speak, then is it?

I tend to agree, by the way.

[Paul_Derby]

I'm a lifetime electronics engineer amongst other things, and I understand George's seemingly flippant comment - sometimes we get a bit peeved at outrageous claims from manufacturers, when we're the ones who have to explain why it doesn't do what it says on the can...

I'm attracted to the economy of the 600 vs the 460, although considering the purchase price difference and other factors, it's perhaps not as great as I first thought, especially since a couple of main dealers have suggested I completely disregard the claimed 35mpg and rely more on about 26mpg for the 600.

They also said the 460 is virtually the same as the 600 apart from the engine size and the hybrid gear. Pulling away quietly has some kudos, but it's not everything.

So does anyone have any Lexus servicing costs for both models, service intervals, and real-life MPG's please?

[wooski]

Hi, I have a 2009 LS600hL with approx 65K on the clock. The servicing costs ALL depend when the 60K service is due (when the spark plugs need changing). Obviously there are 8 of them and they are well over £50 each, so you're looking at an extra £500 easy for the 60K service. I bought mine with 58K on the clock and the dealer had just carried out the 60K service and changed the plugs. Consequently when I took out a 3 year service plan it was just £31 a month (I do less than 10K per year).

As for fuel consumption. I get 22 to 24mpg on my daily commute from Islington to Chiswick in London. 22mpg cold weather, rising to 24mpg in the summer. On a run up to my parents in the Midlands I usually get 28 to 30mpg.

As for comparing the 460 to the 600. There are lots of other little differences. The 600 has the distinctive triple LED headlights which I like. It has a leather dash which is very luxurious. The 600 is also All Wheel Drive. The long wheelbase model is only available in the UK on the 600. Mine is a 5 seat model without the optional Rear Seat Relaxation package (which is more practical. Although from 2010 on there was a 5 seat RSR package available as well.

[lexusdaduk]

check out the service plan mine for the LS430 is 16.50 per month, it's just had it's major 60 k service with cam belt so the others are smaller ones, works out 500 for 3 years and i will still be well under the 100,000 mark.

[Paul_Derby]

Thanks fellas. Seems the 600 matches the MPG for my 400 - 21.2 locally, 30 on a long motorway run.

Difficult decision looms... :shutit:

[Parrot of Doom]

As far as LPG goes, I wouldn't even consider it if those installers have no experience of the model. Let someone with deeper pockets (or a braver outlook) make the jump...

[oliver261]

if your an in town driver then the hybrid much more justifiable than on the motorway when it is undoubtably ballast. id be interested to in the 4 wheel drive system too. im expecting a few 'moments' when i move back to scotland in jan, first winter driving a RWD car and guaranteed snow. i think everyone agrees they are both (460 600) nice cars.

problem with relying on someone else to take the plunge - as you (OP) mentioned earlier, your in the realms of 'you can afford to buy it/ afford to run it' so i would expect it will be a very low demand on what is already a rare car. it will change the way you pick an installer (if the idea does in fact have legs), but could lead you to a better install as you may look for someone with a focus will be on engineering/innovation rather than a routine installer. (ive made this point very badly EDIT- infact reading this back ive not even made it!).

please do let me know how your correspondence with the companies goes as i think its a very interesting project.

Edited October 28, 2012 by oliver261

[brendangeorge]

Thanks fellas. Seems the 600 matches the MPG for my 400 - 21.2 locally, 30 on a long motorway run.

Difficult decision looms... :shutit:

What are you going to do when the Battery needs replacing? - Paul Derby though I was being flippant when I said "all that Battery junk is ballast and a large waste of fuel" I wasn't really - it is overly complex and expensive to gain a small decrease in fuel consumption. I'll bet an LPG converted 460 (if it can be done) will be more economic.

I think you need have to consider the batteries - I have seen posts on other boards that TCHs can last 200K miles and that individual cells can be replaced when they fail so maintenance is not huge. I am sure the Lexus hybrid system is superb - however Battery technology will have to make some big leaps forward before I buy one. Whichever way you go I'll bet it is a good decision and I look forward to hearing about it.

Good luck

Brendan :)

[Bluesman]

Thanks fellas. Seems the 600 matches the MPG for my 400 - 21.2 locally, 30 on a long motorway run.

Difficult decision looms... :shutit:

What are you going to do when the Battery needs replacing? - Paul Derby though I was being flippant when I said "all that Battery junk is ballast and a large waste of fuel" I wasn't really - it is overly complex and expensive to gain a small decrease in fuel consumption. I'll bet an LPG converted 460 (if it can be done) will be more economic.

I think you need have to consider the batteries - I have seen posts on other boards that TCHs can last 200K miles and that individual cells can be replaced when they fail so maintenance is not huge. I am sure the Lexus hybrid system is superb - however Battery technology will have to make some big leaps forward before I buy one. Whichever way you go I'll bet it is a good decision and I look forward to hearing about it.

Good luck

Brendan :)

The other thing that all these Battery car salesman & supporters of this technology will purposely omit is the amount of contaminants and pollution that are produced in the making of these batteries and if all cars were now running on Battery today we would have a much more serious pollution problem than we do today.

The recycling of these batteries would be a time bomb waiting to go off.

Mike

[wooski]

LOL, funny to see the same old hybrid myths rolled out here.

To be honest, if I didnt live in London I think it would be hard to justify a hybrid. They make most sense here no doubt about it. For that reason I'm glad Lexus are returning the 460 to the UK market next year.

[oliver261]

agree wooksi. the ecology argument is a non issue in the ls case because lets face it, if someone was concerned they wouldnt have a 5l v8 back up, 3t of steel, acre of cow hide etc. its more about the 'silent' running, torque delivery, stop-start economy...

[Zotto]

The problem for LPG conversion is quite technical, because if the engine works like in GS450H with Atkinson cycle and double injectors for each cylinder, having direct and indirect injections accordingly to different rotation speed, installing LPG is quite a mess, even more considering that in a hybrid vehicle thermal engine have many starts and stops.

[blackpoolmike]

Hi

Re LPG conversion for LS 460/600. I had a LS 430 converted to LPG and was very happy with it. When I got a 460 I asked my installer and he said they can't be converted because the petrol injectors in the cylinder head would melt. They rely on fuel passing through them to keep them cool, so would overheat when car is running on LPG. I don't know if this is true, but there is some logic to the argument.

With my LS430, Lexus workshops were not very happy about working on the car. Spark plug change would have been difficult because some of the LPG pipework restricted access to some plugs. Other jobs on engine would also require some bits of LPG system to be removed to gain access and Lexus would not touch the LPG system. Hope this helps

Mike

[Paul_Derby]

Right, after receiving replies from mfrs and installers of LPG systems, it seems no-one wants to touch the 460 or 600, mainly due to injector issues and possible software problems where sensors may interpret LPG as an out-of-spec fuel, resulting in who-knows-what? Concern was also expressed about the market volume, which I fully understand. Who'd spend money developing a product for such a small market?

The 600 is a truly beautiful luxury car, no doubt, but in view of the above, and the considerable premium for the 600, I've decided to go for the 460 (no LPG mod). When the right car comes along I'll be selling my lovely 400 which has done me proud since (almost) new.

But then I hear a little voice in my head saying "convert the 400 to LPG and save a LOT of money, no need to upgrade".

Aaaarrrrggghhh!!!! I never could make decisions! :(

[Malc]

can you tell us what your existing LS400 is all about please ?

Thanks.

Malc