Approved Used Lexus Ls430 - Missing Service Stamps

[autobahn]

I'm looking to ease myself into the world of Lexus ownership before I hopefully purchase an ISF some time next year. I've seen a Lexus LS430 that I fancy buying. However, the dealer has informed me that 'some' service stamps are missing. It transpires that the car has only one service stamp (10K miles service). The dealer says that he has just carried out 'the major 60K service' so there will be two stamps in the service book. The car is advertised as having done below 40K miles. It is offered with a full Lexus used car warranty and an MOT.

Should I walk away or go for it? I'm at a loss as to why a 60K service needs to be carried out on a car that hasn't even done 40K miles yet but am more concerned about missing service stamps from an approved Lexus.

[Parthiban]

I don't think I'd buy an LS without service history as if things go wrong they'll be expensive, especially one from a main dealer which you'll be paying a premium for.

I didn't even think a Lexus approved car could have no service history?

[SteveLS400]

I'm at a loss as to why a 60K service needs to be carried out on a car that hasn't even done 40K miles yet but am more concerned about missing service stamps from an approved Lexus.

Different services involve different work. You wouldn't change the cambelt at every service, or the coolant or the brake fluid. It will be worthwhile finding out if the 60k service has covered whatever should have been done between the 10k service and now. How old is the car?

[Parthiban]

With regard to the service it's probably the 6yr/60k service, so even if it hasn't done the mileage it's hit 6 years old (assuming it's an 04 car)

[autobahn]

Car is a 2005 model, so it's 5 years old.

[Parthiban]

Car is a 2005 model, so it's 5 years old.

Given the history then seems they're doing the 6yr major service a bit early.

[autobahn]

The dealer cannot guarantee that the two missing services (20,000 miles and 30,000) have ever been done. The car has done 38,000 miles and the dealer has spent £1K on the 60K miles service so many things were replaced (all brake pads, Battery and so on). There is a stamp for the 10,000 mile service and one for 38,000 miles (which is the current mileage and at which the dealer carried out the equivalent of a 60K-mile service).

He's offering a full Lexus Used Car Warranty (not the 5+ year Warranty), breakdown cover and MOT for 1 year with the car.

Should I walk away?

[SteveLS400]

The dealer cannot guarantee that the two missing services (20,000 miles and 30,000) have ever been done. The car has done 38,000 miles and the dealer has spent £1K on the 60K miles service so many things were replaced (all brake pads, battery and so on). There is a stamp for the 10,000 mile service and one for 38,000 miles (which is the current mileage and at which the dealer carried out the equivalent of a 60K-mile service).

He's offering a full Lexus Used Car Warranty (not the 5+ year Warranty), breakdown cover and MOT for 1 year with the car.

Should I walk away?

Nah, go for it.

[steveskeggy]

Depends on the price the dealer is prepared to come down to.

I am wondering why a 5 year old car has had a new Battery on, You should look into the service sheet and see if anything rings alarm bells.

You should obviously do your own HPI check, and try to find the previous owner, and have a word.

If you cant find a previous owner, then be very suspicious.

If it all turns out to be innocent, then you have a very good bargaining chip to spank the dealer with.

[autobahn]

Found this on the Lexus UK site regarding Lexus Approved Pre-Owned Benefits, the service specifically:

All Approved Pre-Owned Lexus vehicles must have a service history that is approved by the Lexus Centre retailing the car.

Requirements for an approved service history:

* All Lexus Centre services will be completed by a Lexus qualified technician and have all the applicable stamps and signatures.

* Services for qualifying vehicles must be within 1,000 miles either side of the scheduled service mileage limit or within 2 months either side of the specified time period.

Vehicles with an incomplete or non Lexus Centre service history can only qualify as an Approved Pre-Owned Lexus once the retailing Lexus Centre completes the most recent major service. The Centre must then update the service record book to provide to you.

So I guess that they've done the most recent major service to make the car an Approved car.

Then the car history check is fairly comprehensive too:

The Vehicle History Check utilises data from many sources including the DVLA, Police National computer, finance companies, ABI, BVRLA, VMC, RMIF and SMMT to name but a few.

With access to over 63 million records the following checks are made:

* Cross referencing between Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) and registration number.

* Vehicle description check.

* Finance data check/high risk data check.

* Registration date and year of manufacture.

* Stolen vehicle check.

* Write off/condition check/scrapped indicator.

* Number of previous owners and owner change dates.

* Plate change warning, including full plate history or any previous colour changes.

* Import/export data.

As with the Vehicle History Check, the Independent Mileage Check is vital as it gives both you and each Lexus Centre the confidence that the vehicle mileage has been independently verified.

Most Lexus Centres carry out a full mileage verification check as a matter of course with a recommended supplier. All checks include the provision of a branded pass certificate that you will find inserted in the relevant place at the back of your handover pack.

I guess the first thing I should check is the 'branded pass certificate'.

[SteveLS400]

I am wondering why a 5 year old car has had a new battery on, You should look into the service sheet and see if anything rings alarm bells.

It is not uncommon for modern batteries to need replacing after this period. Unlike the good old fashioned type, modern batteries give little if any warning of failure. I found out when my (now ex) wife rang at 6pm one evening from the centre of Doncaster, to say her car wouldn't start. After the 70 mile journey, we abandoned the car, a 4 year old Clio oil burner. The following day I borrowed a fixed towing bar and fetched the car. The only fault was a totally dead Battery ie not just flat, but deceased.

[passman53]

I am wondering why a 5 year old car has had a new battery on, You should look into the service sheet and see if anything rings alarm bells.

It is not uncommon for modern batteries to need replacing after this period. Unlike the good old fashioned type, modern batteries give little if any warning of failure. I found out when my (now ex) wife rang at 6pm one evening from the centre of Doncaster, to say her car wouldn't start. After the 70 mile journey, we abandoned the car, a 4 year old Clio oil burner. The following day I borrowed a fixed towing bar and fetched the car. The only fault was a totally dead Battery ie not just flat, but deceased.

Didn't like to admit this but last month the Battery went on my 430. It started in the morning,I drove 20 miles stopped and came to start the car about an hour later. Completely dead. Called breakdown service who came and jump started it.

Drove back the 20 miles and switched off, tried to start and again nothing.Had Battery checked and advised it had at least 2 cells gone.

Checked on web for price of a new Battery and best price for one I'd heard of was £85. Out of interest I phoned Lexus dealer and was quoted genuine Toyota/lexus branded Battery for £65 -fitted.

So Amazingly the dealers aren't always the most expensive.

[steve2006]

I am wondering why a 5 year old car has had a new battery on, You should look into the service sheet and see if anything rings alarm bells.

It is not uncommon for modern batteries to need replacing after this period. Unlike the good old fashioned type, modern batteries give little if any warning of failure. I found out when my (now ex) wife rang at 6pm one evening from the centre of Doncaster, to say her car wouldn't start. After the 70 mile journey, we abandoned the car, a 4 year old Clio oil burner. The following day I borrowed a fixed towing bar and fetched the car. The only fault was a totally dead Battery ie not just flat, but deceased.

Didn't like to admit this but last month the Battery went on my 430. It started in the morning,I drove 20 miles stopped and came to start the car about an hour later. Completely dead. Called breakdown service who came and jump started it.

Drove back the 20 miles and switched off, tried to start and again nothing.Had Battery checked and advised it had at least 2 cells gone.

Checked on web for price of a new Battery and best price for one I'd heard of was £85. Out of interest I phoned Lexus dealer and was quoted genuine Toyota/lexus branded Battery for £65 -fitted.

So Amazingly the dealers aren't always the most expensive.

Very true, 2 genuine lower ball joints from Lexus Derby £120.00 non genuine from motor factors £138.00.

[autobahn]

It appears i've been properly stitched up by my dealer. I bought the car (2005 LS430) with the two missing service stamps 7 weeks ago and the dealer provided a full Lexus Warranty with the car. He also said that there'd be no issue buying the car back in the future and that most of the depreciation on the car had already ocurred.

I contacted the dealer earlier this week to see what i'd get for it and he's not interested in buying it back. I then contacted a few other non-Lexus dealerships for part-exchange prices and the best i've had offered for my car is £9K. The car was originally advertised at £17K and I paid £16K for it just 7 weeks ago! That's depreciation of over £1K per week. It's truly mind-boggling.

Lexus: never again.

[Malc]

As an ex car dealer I would say that you probably paid a little over the odds for your car BUT that the dealers margin looks about right in this present market ! Sorry to say .............. maybe a harder bargain could have been achieved ................ cash is always king and no more so than today.

Don't blame the car eh ! Just the margin that the dealer has achieved and wants to achieve if he holds your car back in stock.

The car ( hopes ) will prove a really good buy, reliable and trustworthy to the end; that is unless you trade your cars in every couple of years or so and then you would expect to be keeping the dealer in champagne and strawberries.

Don't be too upset about it all ......... just ENJOY your fabulous car!

Malc

[SteveLS400]

It appears i've been properly stitched up by my dealer. I bought the car (2005 LS430) with the two missing service stamps 7 weeks ago and the dealer provided a full Lexus Warranty with the car. He also said that there'd be no issue buying the car back in the future and that most of the depreciation on the car had already ocurred.

I contacted the dealer earlier this week to see what i'd get for it and he's not interested in buying it back. I then contacted a few other non-Lexus dealerships for part-exchange prices and the best i've had offered for my car is £9K. The car was originally advertised at £17K and I paid £16K for it just 7 weeks ago! That's depreciation of over £1K per week. It's truly mind-boggling.

Lexus: never again.

Cut-up as you obviously are, I can't see that its the fault of Lexus or of this particular car; this is the motor trade and they aren't known for their kindness and generosity.

There are quite a few up for grabs on fleabay. Most are classifieds:-

2000 X 88k £ 6500

2004 54 89k £ 9995

2006 06 47k £16499

These are motortrader selling prices, I would suggest the buying prices would be very much lower. The latter one will be priced to return at least £5k for the trader after allowing for discount from the windscreen price, finance costs for a period (probably 6 months in this climate), minor repairs, give-aways (mats etc), MOT etc etc. Its fairly likely he paid no more than £9k for it and possible less.

I am in no doubt that exactly the same kind of picture would occur with any marque and especially in such a short period of ownership. If I gave my car away today for nothing, the rate of depreciation over the period I have owned it would equate to £9.61 per week! If I sold it for what I believe it would fetch as a minimum, that figure reduces to £7.21 per week. hardly a kings ransom for the pleasure and luxury.

So, please, leave off ranting about Lexus. By all means rant about the motor trade.

[autobahn]

I think the main issue is that the dealer isn't even prepared to buy the car back from me and I think this is down to the missing service stamps. This is despite a verbal reassurance that this would be no problem. Plus the fact that i've never suffered from this level of depreciation. It's kind of ironic that the very same salesperson who sold me the car in the first place, after telling me that the car had done most if its depreciation already, now tells me that the larger Lexus models suffer from very heavy depreciation, just 7 weeks later. I feel i've been misled somewhat.

[fairygodmother]

I think the main issue is that the dealer isn't even prepared to buy the car back from me and I think this is down to the missing service stamps. This is despite a verbal reassurance that this would be no problem. Plus the fact that i've never suffered from this level of depreciation. It's kind of ironic that the very same salesperson who sold me the car in the first place, after telling me that the car had done most if its depreciation already, now tells me that the larger Lexus models suffer from very heavy depreciation, just 7 weeks later. I feel i've been misled somewhat.

As i have worked in a lexus dealer for 9 years and i really feel for you. Buying from a Lexus dealer will give you the best prepared cars with Lexus warranty but it does come at a cost. Let me explain a dealer margin when buying a car Example:

Sale price £17000

Bought price £13000 (Remember the previous owner would want a good price)

margin £4000

deduct VAT £3404

Approved pre owned warranty cost from manufacturer £910

Workshop and bodywork preparation average £1000 (we all know they cost a fortune)

Pay salesman £150

Valet car £35

Total net margin £1309

If the car is bought back the process starts again.

Hence when buying an approved Lexus why the price drops so much if you try and selling it if you have not kept it very long.

Try speaking to the centre manager and explain what has happened. Such a shame that we have some real idiots working in the trade who will say anything to sell a car.

[autobahn]

^ I understand all of that, but it doesn't negate the lack of confidence of the dealership in the cars they sell and also the blatant lies that they told me. No car should suffer depreciation of £1K per week.

[scythe]

Hi Autobahn,

I do understand your despair. Your lexus dealer has treated you like ****. You've heard all these good things about lexus dealers being great and you never saw it coming.

It's all been a bit harsh. Let me say some things though.

Your car has presumable had a couple of owners, the first one being Lexus GB, who then sold it on to someone who kept it for a few years and didn't bother getting it serviced. If it had been serviced by any lexus dealer then it would have been plugged into the lexus system (and all the details of everything uploaded to lexus, including how nicely the car has been driven) and this would have been available to all lexus dealers including the one near London you bought the car from. It was therefore 13000 miles late for a major service.

Your car won't be significantly worse for this, though the oil will have lost some of its protective qualities in that time. The car will be fine, and could end up covering over 200,000 miles before the grim reaper comes for it.

It looks like a great car. It has the jewel in Lexus's crown, which few other 430's have, which is adaptive cruise control, which will seriously improve the quality of your life. It's a good colour, and the lighter coloured leather will be great in the summer months. You can have many years of pleasure driving round in what is a brilliant car. Be grateful for it. You've perhaps paid a little too much for this car - about 2k or so... but its got a lexus warranty, and its basically great. Lexus do build excellent cars.

The sales person at your lexus dealer - this is no surprise. As a general rule of thumb, believe nothing they say. Anything they say is either something they hope you'll pick up on for later, or it's something they are saying to make you want to buy a car, or feel good about doing so. Nothing they say can be trusted. This, sadly, is true of all sales people. Even buying a book in a bookshop, the point of sale person will tell you they've read the book, and it's great. They won't have. I've had lexus sales people lie and lie and lie and lie. They are the worst.

If you have a problem with itself, then tough. Lexus in Japan build really great cars, but unfortunately they have three layers underneath, and its really hard to penetrate those layers and make anyone car. Complaining is useless. When you own a lexus you have to put up with that.

There's no point in moaning, and no point in trying to dump the car. Get some serous long journeys done. Go up to Scotland, and see the Isle of Skye. Drive across Ireland, to the west coast (they have some top motorways now). Take the ferry down to santander, and drive down to Malaga, and the rest of the spanish coast. Enjoy the car. It really will be one of the best cars you ever have.

[jsj24uk]

It appears i've been properly stitched up by my dealer. I bought the car (2005 LS430) with the two missing service stamps 7 weeks ago and the dealer provided a full Lexus Warranty with the car. He also said that there'd be no issue buying the car back in the future and that most of the depreciation on the car had already ocurred.

I contacted the dealer earlier this week to see what i'd get for it and he's not interested in buying it back. I then contacted a few other non-Lexus dealerships for part-exchange prices and the best i've had offered for my car is £9K. The car was originally advertised at £17K and I paid £16K for it just 7 weeks ago! That's depreciation of over £1K per week. It's truly mind-boggling.

Lexus: never again.

Lexus never again?

You would have had exactly the same problem if you'd have bought an Audi A8 4.2, Mercedes S500, BMW 745i. And from main dealers as well.

You've got a years warrenty with the car which you can extend if you want too at the end of the first year. You've got bar none one of the best luxuary cars on the market.

A bit of research would have told you that no one these days wants a 2 ton car with a 4.3 litre engine which averages 22mpg if you drive it like a nun with no right foot. Everyone wants the diesel version of these which Lexus don't offer hence massive depreciation. You will always have paid for from a Lexus main dealer anyway but would you have rather bought from somewhere else? Try and get a problem with the car fixed from another used car emporium would be an absolute nightmare.

Welcome to the real world of buying and owning Luxury cars from main dealers. You've bought it, now enjoy it for what it is. You don't get somthing for nothing I'm afraid.

[nelson]

Having been in car sales for over thirty years i object to scythes telling me that i am a liar and nothing i say can be trusted.NOT ALL SALESMEN ARE THE SAME.As in all walks of life there are good and bad ones out there.Fairygodmother has given an accurate example of how the sales procedure works and the worst case financially is to try and return a car so quickly having paid top dollar for it.If you want an ISF next year why not keep the LS until then and search for a good part exchange deal--remembering that the ISF will also have depreciated by then..

[SteveLS400]

Having been in car sales for over thirty years i object to scythes telling me that i am a liar and nothing i say can be trusted.NOT ALL SALESMEN ARE THE SAME.As in all walks of life there are good and bad ones out there.Fairygodmother has given an accurate example of how the sales procedure works and the worst case financially is to try and return a car so quickly having paid top dollar for it.If you want an ISF next year why not keep the LS until then and search for a good part exchange deal--remembering that the ISF will also have depreciated by then..

I think you can rightly feel unhappy. I did try and explain without being blatant.