Clunky, Creaking Brakes Plus Warping Issues!

Greedy80 · July 30, 2010

Ok first of just to let you all know I am no mechanic and any and all works that have been made to my car were one so by a trusted local Japanese specialist garage.

Basically I too suffer from clunky, creaky breaks like many others on here but the reason I didn't just add this post to one of the other topics is because I also am having disc warping issues. Sure enough the breaks clunk when I come to a full stop or a combination of breaking at low speed or breaking and turning at low speed. Breaking to a full stop is not only usually a clunk but that sound is also accompanied by a creak. I have actually had the brake noise problem (both creaking and clunking) go away previously when I have in the past changed my discs and pads but the noise has returned some miles later, I would say about 2000 miles after they seemingly had been cured. My belief is that this combination of noises is likely down to shims and springs not being replaced but instead the garage have no doubt packed the brakes up with copper grease. Then naturally after a period of use the noises return as the grease wears away. I really don't think the issue is suspension related as such because of the way the noise was previously cured during the pads and disc change. This said because of the age of my car I will slowly but surely of the next year start replacing suspension parts as time goes on starting with the lower ball joints, they aren't causing any problems at the moment but I'd rather replace them before they do. First off though I would love to sort the current issue I have with the brakes.

Ok, in addition I would like to go over my warping issues I've had, first off I'm no racing driver and I'm careful when braking at all times, also I always allow new discs plenty of time to bed in and be naturally heat treated by use. I originally had my OEM discs and pads replaced due to simple wear, having read the forum for months I opted for the much loved Mintex Brake box which came with both Mintex Discs and pads, no mixing of brands here. Once fitted I had no problems other than initial clunking (no creaking at this point) so I went back to the garage and they checked them over, i.e greased them up better and the clunking was gone. Then after a couple of thousand miles the discs had warped and the clunking was back (not at the same time just approx)so I took the car back to the garage but because I bought the discs myself I couldn't have them changed there and then and for £30 had my front discs skimmed. Interestingly the near side front disc was in a worse condition than the passenger side front, not quite sure what that means but the garage inspected the calliper and couldn't find any issues. So happy motoring for another few thousand miles and bam warped discs again. So I was a bit disheartened and was beginning to think I should have opted for the Mintex's after having read all the people on here who just accepted the knocking as the norm for Mintex brakes and my warping experiences. So this time determined to sort things I bought a suggested brand of disc from the garage and had those fitted, no new pads as I enquired if these would need to be replaced and under inspection they were deemed unnecessary. I wasn't completely sure about this but thought I would just put myself in the hands of this trusted garage and if there were any issues I'd be back and just get them to sort it.

So anyway we are now almost up to date and my car just about two and a half months ago I had a whistling sound coming form the front right, under inspection it turned out that I needed some new bearings and initially looked like the hub assembly was warped! Later it was actually confirmed that parts of the hub assembly namely the flange (talking as if I have a clue what that does) were causing the problem. I enquired tentatively if this would result in me also needing new discs and possibly pads, I was told no. Again I thought that those would have needed to be replaced as I assumed the warped hub (hub parts) would create warped discs? But I collected my car and all seemed well although I still had knocking from the brake pads, by now having paid out I was no less determined to sort this problem but had to save some cash for a while first.

Ok so now we are up to date, about a month ago (I have been busy with work) my discs were showing early signs of warping and sure enough as of today the brakes are clearly warped braking has once again become a jittery affair. Also of course the knocking and creaking are still ever present. So now I have soo many factors in the air it's hard to determine what exactly is the cause of my warping this time. Could it be that the discs were effected by the warping of the hub assembly parts? Could it be they simply just became warped as a result of my driving (unlikely)? Could it be that there is something more going on with the brakes and caliper that might cause this? Again I'm no mechanic but my thoughts are leaning to the discs having been harmed by the warping of the hub.

I guess why I'm posting this is too give you guys a look into what I've been going through. I also wondered what you guys would do next? I'm gonna go back to the garage again I think and get them to replace or skim the discs again, hopefully replace because when I had the last set of discs I did enquire what might happen if they warped again and I was told they should easily be able to replace them if they do I will pay the extra and have new shims and new spring clips fitted at the same time, although if the pads aren't OEM it could be hard getting proper fitting clips I believe.

There is a big part of me that sort of thinks whilst Lexus would be expensive, just take the car to them and get them to fit new discs and pads and then if this happens again immediately go back to them and get it sorted. The hope is here that they would sort it or at least secondly if they don't sort it straight away as a result of their customer care they will rectify the issue for little or no additional cost. I would like to do that but I have already invested so much money and time into the other garage and the process so far that possibly I'm only £20 or so pounds away from a sorted car is skimming solves the issue.

Anyway guys as always your help,advice and thoughts will be greatfuly received and I will of course post back with an update....

P.s thaks for reading all this :D

lexynik · July 30, 2010

hello mate - a good thing to read could be member "tigerfish" profile where he has some really good info on walkthroughs pinned in his banner/signature - it sounds like you havent replaced the caliper slide pins and locating dowel thingy bit yet,these can cause clunking and also possibly other problems ie warped discs i would imagine in a worst case scenario - i believe these parts are cheap so if it was me in your situation i would get them changed as part of the process of elimination of the fault and the cause - anyway have a read thru tigerfishes walkthrough in case its relevant to your problems - his car is a gs300 but i believe the brakes are identical

Greedy80 · July 30, 2010

hello mate - a good thing to read could be member "tigerfish" profile where he has some really good info on walkthroughs pinned in his banner/signature - it sounds like you havent replaced the caliper slide pins and locating dowel thingy bit yet,these can cause clunking and also possibly other problems ie warped discs i would imagine in a worst case scenario - i believe these parts are cheap so if it was me in your situation i would get them changed as part of the process of elimination of the fault and the cause - anyway have a read thru tigerfishes walkthrough in case its relevant to your problems - his car is a gs300 but i believe the brakes are identical

Thanks I'll take a look now....

Greedy80 · July 30, 2010

Slight Update here guys I have been on the phone to my garage and told them of my issue and they are going to replace both the discs and pads FOC which is great news. I have taken the initiative to also order some new caliper slide pins too in a bid to stop any rattling, knocking brake pads.

Plus I think I'm due another service so that will no doubt be done at the same time just trying to remember which service I need, I think it's the 90,000 one despite my car not having covered that mileage by quite some way.

Anyway I do hope this at least ends the reign of warped discs that I have experienced, then I can concentrate on ridding myself of the knocking brake pads. I'm pleased with the likely outcome but not yet convinced, I'll be pessimistic until a few months and several thousand miles after I've had the discs. However next time I buy discs they will be OEM just to rule out the possibility of mildly incompatible discs. To think this whole thing might have been avoided had I bought OEM on day one I just wanted another disc because OEM's produce so much break dust. Anyway....

To those of you that I have asked to take a look at this thread I would still very much like to hear from you and see what you have to say.

Thanks and as always I'll keep you updated!

ACLex · July 30, 2010

Hi Mark,

I have checked with our Techs and they have not come across this problem before

Sorry I can't be much more help :(

Andy

Greedy80 · July 30, 2010

Hi Mark,

I have checked with our Techs and they have not come across this problem before

Sorry I can't be much more help :(

Andy

That's fine Andy I appreciate you even taking the time to look, I'm thinking it probably is a case that the discs were slightly warped at the time of the flange being replaced and as such have gotten worse over time, so hopefully the garage will sort this out as the car goes in towards the middle of next month.

Thanks.

ormi · July 30, 2010

Hi Mark,

I have checked with our Techs and they have not come across this problem before

Sorry I can't be much more help :(

Andy

your kidding??^^^^^^^^^^^^ done lots of these!!

ill start with the most common

1)the lower piston of the caliper seizes which due to the piston not retracting makes the pads move/rub on the piston causing squeeks knocks and bangs hence why copperslip stops the problem(normally till it melts off or rubs off),one thing most tecs will push the piston back and say its not seized not the case if its even slighly hard to push back remove the piston and check!!!

so on we go to warped flanges....

the heat generated by a slightly sticking caliper is amazing so the disk gets very very hot so does everything its attached too ie the flange,the flang can only get so hot so many times before it warps.

2)slides are the second one...no point in buying new ones because they can be cleaned up easy at worst you buy new slider boots and grease them up...

hope that helps matey...

lexynik · July 30, 2010

allways good to hear top tips from a toyo tech - ormi i know youve said the slider pins can be cleaned up and i bow to your knowledge but am i right in thinking on one slider pin on each caliper theres a washer or grommit thing which can wear and cause a knock ( made of metal i presume) ?

ormi · July 30, 2010

allways good to hear top tips from a toyo tech - ormi i know youve said the slider pins can be cleaned up and i bow to your knowledge but am i right in thinking on one slider pin on each caliper theres a washer or grommit thing which can wear and cause a knock ( made of metal i presume) ?

yes mate on the bottom slide their is a rubber ring round the end....this is only a problem if you have had someone thats hashy or doesnt know what its their for/doesnt know what they are doing working on your car...

ACLex · July 30, 2010

Hi Mark,

I have checked with our Techs and they have not come across this problem before

Sorry I can't be much more help :(

Andy

your kidding??^^^^^^^^^^^^ done lots of these!!

ill start with the most common

1)the lower piston of the caliper seizes which due to the piston not retracting makes the pads move/rub on the piston causing squeeks knocks and bangs hence why copperslip stops the problem(normally till it melts off or rubs off),one thing most tecs will push the piston back and say its not seized not the case if its even slighly hard to push back remove the piston and check!!!

so on we go to warped flanges....

the heat generated by a slightly sticking caliper is amazing so the disk gets very very hot so does everything its attached too ie the flange,the flang can only get so hot so many times before it warps.

2)slides are the second one...no point in buying new ones because they can be cleaned up easy at worst you buy new slider boots and grease them up...

hope that helps matey...

No, I am not kidding. Most of the IS200s we see here are 1 owner cars owned by the more mature generation :) we probably have the lowest mileage cars in the country around here :)

We have had a few stuck or seized calipers but no warped discs.

Andy

lexynik · July 30, 2010

ormi nearly everyone who worked on my is apart from lexus hashed their work - greedy for what these items cost i would defo renew at the same time you get new discs and pads fitted .

also as ormi says if the bottom pistons are sticking it used to be possible to pump them out further then usual with the pads removed and clean off built up brake dust which accumulates into hard crud and stops the piston retracting fully - its not a full refurb just a clean up but id have the garage do that to unless ormi knows a better way

ormi · July 30, 2010

as above its not brake dust though its rust and if its really bad just pop the piston out and clean with a wire brush(remember you will need to bleed the brakes after you do this...)

Greedy80 · July 31, 2010

Wow, thank you everyone your help as always is top notch. My thanks are especially for ormi and Andy!

Andy could you perhaps PM me a price for you guys to check and clean the calipers and potentialy seized piston(s). I believe it is only the drivers side front that is effected, I'm not sure if you give prices over the forum like this, if not I can email you via your work email.

Im considering having the guys at my local garage do the new discs, pads and slide pins as they are paying and then having andy check and refurb the calippers the following day.

Thanks again guys, so pleased this will finaly be getting sorted one way or another.

klexus · July 31, 2010

ormi,so would just cleaning the pistons do or would it be better to replace them?

ormi · August 2, 2010

ormi,so would just cleaning the pistons do or would it be better to replace them?

hi mate,well it depends on how bad the pitting is on the piston this is were common sense comes into it if it looks really bad replace it they are not to costly approx £20-£30...

Greedy80 · August 3, 2010

ormi,so would just cleaning the pistons do or would it be better to replace them?

hi mate,well it depends on how bad the pitting is on the piston this is were common sense comes into it if it looks really bad replace it they are not to costly approx £20-£30...

Hi Ormi, with the seized calliper pistons is it usually the case that one or more of them are seized and also how many pistons are there in total?

Thanks

ACLex · August 3, 2010

ormi,so would just cleaning the pistons do or would it be better to replace them?

hi mate,well it depends on how bad the pitting is on the piston this is were common sense comes into it if it looks really bad replace it they are not to costly approx £20-£30...

Hi Ormi, with the seized calliper pistons is it usually the case that one or more of them are seized and also how many pistons are there in total?

Thanks

There are 2 pistons per caliper :)

Andy

Greedy80 · August 3, 2010

ormi,so would just cleaning the pistons do or would it be better to replace them?

hi mate,well it depends on how bad the pitting is on the piston this is were common sense comes into it if it looks really bad replace it they are not to costly approx £20-£30...

Hi Ormi, with the seized calliper pistons is it usually the case that one or more of them are seized and also how many pistons are there in total?

Thanks

There are 2 pistons per caliper :)

Andy

Cheers andy! :winky:

Parthiban · August 3, 2010

This sounds a lot like how my car was a few months ago, it was so bad I didn't particularly like driving it.

But recently had the work done, all new hubs, flanges (?), discs and pads fitted at WIM (can't believe they said you didn't need new discs and pads!) and the car feels like new again. No judder, no squealing, no nothing, it's perfect. I hope it continues, but for now anyway it's back to normal.

WIM also discovered that my calipers were sticking a bit, so they sorted those out too (not entirely sure what they did but probably what Ormi described above :) )

It does sound like you might need to use a different garage going forwards, as they don't appear to really know what they are doing. They might be cheaper, but if they keep changing bits at random you're going to end up paying more in the long run.

Greedy80 · August 3, 2010

This sounds a lot like how my car was a few months ago, it was so bad I didn't particularly like driving it.

But recently had the work done, all new hubs, flanges (?), discs and pads fitted at WIM (can't believe they said you didn't need new discs and pads!) and the car feels like new again. No judder, no squealing, no nothing, it's perfect. I hope it continues, but for now anyway it's back to normal.

WIM also discovered that my calipers were sticking a bit, so they sorted those out too (not entirely sure what they did but probably what Ormi described above :) )

It does sound like you might need to use a different garage going forwards, as they don't appear to really know what they are doing. They might be cheaper, but if they keep changing bits at random you're going to end up paying more in the long run.

I agree buddy, at the moment I'm going with them this time because they are supplying replacement discs and pads so they should too really. A lot of work could have been avoided if previously when I asked the question "What could have caused this?" They actually thought to look further than the end of their noses.

When the car goes in I am also going to have a direct chat with the mechanic who will be working on my car so I can make sure smaller things like the ring at the foot of the slide pins are reseated properly after fitting. I'm going to go as far as typing everything up into a list and then I'll go through all that was done with them after the car has been worked on. Also I'm gonna talk through every step of the process and mention the fact that I will be having the car WIM'ed a week after the work is done where all works will be checked. It's a real struggle finding a decent Garage though and I can't afford Lexus hourly rates sadly. To be honest I don't think they are always a bad garage, fine for servicing and when a definitive task is set but I just don't think they know the car well enough to think further forward. I'm completely of the mind set that if work needs to be done or can be done to avoid later problems then do it but I suspect like most garages the majority of their customers want a low price and just to be told it's sorted.

To be fair if it wasn't for this forum then I'd still be in a position where in 6 months time or so the discs would have warped again and the flange would probably need replacing again too! I always research my problems on here and this shows it really does pay to do so. I just wish I was Ormi or Tiger fish's neighbour things would be so much simpler! :winky:

There are hardly any forum members from down here in Dorchester so my local pool of practical skills and advice is limited.

Anyway thanks to you all again.

Parthiban · August 3, 2010

Fair enough, it was just the thing about not needing new discs and pads when they replaced the hubs that made no sense at all. But I guess they may just have been having an off day - either way it's decent of them to do the discs and pads for free, and hopefully that'll be the end of your problems :)

Greedy80 · August 12, 2010

Right well guys my car went into my trusted local garage today and as planned it was to have a full service, new discs and pads, new break seal kit on both front callipers, all 4 pistons replaced on the front callipers and finally new slide pins for the front callipers. So basically a service and a front break overhaul, mainly in an attempt to get the issues I have spoken about here sorted.

So I picked my car up at 6:00pm having left the car with the garage at 7am that morning and being called at lunch time to be told all the work had successfully been completed. Fantastic I felt like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders at least that was until I drove the car home paying attention to any noises I came across. The first thing I heard was the all to familiar sound of brake discs rubbing against the pads coming from the drivers side front wheel. At least I'm pretty certain that this is the cause, it is a sound that intermits as the wheel revolves and if I corner left at say 25mph I can hear the intensity of the sound increase as the weight of the car moves over that wheel. Even when driving in a straight line though with no extra stress of steering acting on that wheel I can hear the scrapping sound become louder and quiter as the wheel revolves and the discs come into contact with the pads and then move away again. According to the garage the car was test driven and checked!

I can't tell you how annoyed I am this problem just doesn't seem to want to end! Ormi, Andy, TigerFish what do you think the cause could be and what would your suggestions be?

I will call the garage first thing tomorrow and tell them what's happening and they will no doubt want to take another look, quite honestly though I am about ready to take my car to Andy and the guys at Lexus Poole just to check things over and see what they come up with. This is past rediculous!

As always guys thanks in advance for any help you give I really appreciate it.

TigerFish · August 13, 2010

I would double check that the backing plate isn't rubbing on the edge of the disc. Quite a common thing when the brakes have been worked on.

Parthiban · August 13, 2010

Sorry to hear that, this is starting to sound like a neverending saga! Hope it's a simple fix like TigerFish said though...........

If it isn't is a trip to WIM too far for you (not sure where Dorchester is)? With all this pain it might be worth taking it to them to have a good look at and maybe finally sort out (as they did with mine)

Good luck! :winky:

ormi · August 15, 2010

mate sounds like a simple one,sound like the backing plate you will see a plate behind the disk just push that away mate job done do both sides....but yes as tiger says it happens a lot when working on the brakes..