Snow Foam

[dgman]

so how much in ml do you use in the hd lance.

[PJ S]

Seems to be a bit of BS on here. I find the Snowfoam I use, in the quantity I use it (miniscule) generates a thick foam (see pic) which stays on the car for 5 to 6 minutes. I usually go and fill my wash buckets while it's draining off and in that time it really dislodges the crap enough to rinse off. Makes a final wipe over with Poorboys suds very easy and a final rinse with the Karcher on it's lowest setting using mains water through tandem particle filters means it sheets off and dries without water marks, but I usually give it help with a MF towel.

The LSP isn't removed, if it was the foam wouldn't be so effective. I tend to top up with a coat of carnauba wax every couple of washes but that doesn't last too long on the car.

No BS Tango - just honest opinion and appraisal of what's the best method for using foam.

The aspect of your reply that I've bolded, is contradictory - the foam releases grime on both LSPs and bare paintwork just as effectively.

That you find your wax doesn't last too long, so needs a reapplication hints at either the wax being a poor performer (no idea which one you use) or that your washing solutions (foam and shampoo) are a bit too strong.

As Stevie has linked, the thread there details how to ascertain the PIR with your particular lance, its setting, and the pw you own - one with a greater flow rate will go through more product in the same space of time than one with half as much flow rate does.

This through the maths there, will show what the suggested/recommend amount of foam and water the lance container should have, in order to achieve the LSP safe PIR level the manufacturer/supplier recommends.

The notion that 1" or whatever the proffered level is, is well intentioned, but falls well short of being meaningful or useful to anyone other than the profferer and someone whose flow-rate and lance output are identical. This is highly unlikely due to tolerances used in the manufacture of the lances, the pw - as well as the mains pressure at each individual's home.

I would suggest it worth your while having a chat with the supplier of your foam, and get their PIR strength (a percentage), and doing the maths to get that accurately.

See if that has an effect on your wax longevity - assuming the wash solution isn't too much as well.

[Paradroid]

I've read through this thread, but I can't really see the point of the foam. Am I missing something.

I use the two bucket method, with a wash mitt, and I blast the car with a normal hose before I start washing it, to make sure the dirt is loosened off a bit.

The foam just looks like another step that doesn't do that much?

What's with the acronyms - TFR and LSP? TFR = traffic film remover?

[PJ S]

so how much in ml do you use in the hd lance.

Check the link Stevie posted up, and follow it.

Of course, finding out the solution strength first would be handy, as BH AF is 4%, and others may be as low as 1-2% to be LSP safe.

Regarding the previous post - TFRs were designed for commercial vehicles. The fact the dealerships have taken them as well for quickness doesn't make what I wrote incorrect.

They are aggressive, and designed to strip everything off, which the dealers' valeters will be putting back once they've finished.

Some of the old TFR formulas are now being reformulated to create the pH neutral foams that are starting to filter through, and more designed for detailers wishing to keep their LSP as intact as possible.

If you can also manage to use warm water (ask about the product's Cloud Point) at the Cloud Point, you'll find the foam and bucketful of shampoo solution will be more active than with cold water - depending on the CP it was designed for.

This is part of the reason dealers will use 90ºC with the TFR sprayed on using a manual pressure sprayer.

[PJ S]

I've read through this thread, but I can't really see the point of the foam. Am I missing something.

I use the two bucket method, with a wash mitt, and I blast the car with a normal hose before I start washing it, to make sure the dirt is loosened off a bit.

The foam just looks like another step that doesn't do that much?

What's with the acronyms - TFR and LSP? TFR = traffic film remover?

Yes, you are missing the point of the exercise.

TFR - spot on

LSP - last stage product/protection (wax or sealant)

The purpose of foaming, is a pre-wash looser grime remover - somewhat the same as pressure sprayer and TFR or one of numerous various pre-wash cleaner (glorified APC's - [Meguiar's] All Purpose Cleaner)

This foaming or sprayer stage with rinsing afterwards, is to reduce the amount of grit on the surfaces, giving the user less to potentially add fresh new swirls/scratches into their paintwork with - especially if they've just spent umpteen hours polishing them out the week before!

Not everyone goes for it - cost can be a bit of a factor, but it's yet another process aimed at reducing the amount of touching the paintwork gets.

The ideal scenario, would be a complete touchless wash/dry, and where the LSP is still left, unscathed, to continue doing its job.

[Steviewevie]

I use the two bucket method, with a wash mitt, and I blast the car with a normal hose before I start washing it, to make sure the dirt is loosened off a bit.

If you really are "blasting" the hose at the car, then potentially you're inducing scratches by forcing any dirt/grit into/over the paintwork. Better would be a gentle of trickle of water over the car so that the dirt can be loosened without any real force. Or use a snow foam as discussed in this thread. If the snow foam stays on the car for a few minutes and then disperses, it's gradually working that dirt loose.

Personally I was quite suprised at how well my first snow foaming attempt worked, i.e. how much less dirt there was on the car when I subsequently used the two-bucket method.

[dgman]

i can't beleive that i have just read a post on detailing world where a guy is using 680ml of bilt hamber snow foam in a 1000ml lance and bilt hamber and pjs agree with him that the dilution is correct,how on earth can you possibly need that much product.my suppliers instructions are 1-5% by volume in the lance not 68%.i think tango got it right,there is a lot of bs going on here.

btw,i checked with jetwash direct and their snow foam won't strip my lsp.

[Steviewevie]

i can't beleive that i have just read a post on detailing world where a guy is using 680ml of bilt hamber snow foam in a 1000ml lance and bilt hamber and pjs agree with him that the dilution is correct,how on earth can you possibly need that much product.my suppliers instructions are 1-5% by volume in the lance not 68%.i think tango got it right,there is a lot of bs going on here.

No BS, dgman. The ratio of 4% recommended by BH is the ratio that comes out of the nozzle and onto the car, not the ratio in the bottle. That thread shows how to calculate how much to put in the bottle depending on the anufacturer's ratio, your pressure washer, your foam lance etc.

As an example, when I did the test, it showed that I need to use approx 300ml of BH Auto-foam and 219ml of water to end up with a 4% ratio coming out of the nozzle. These figures are meaningless though if you don't have exactly the same pressure washer and foam lance (and foam lance setting) as me, and the same domestic water pressure as me.

When I did the test, I had 1L of plain water in the foam lance bottle. To totally empty the bottle I put 13.45L of water through my pressure washer, so that was 14.45L of water coming out of the nozzle to the car. Therefore for 4% of Auto-foam out of the nozzle I need to use 0.578L (578ml) of Auto-foam in the bottle, since 0.578L is 4% of 14.45L.

If your supplier recommend 1-5% then do the test as per the thread link on detailing World, and see how much product you need to put into the bottle.

[dgman]

steviewevie,i am not bringing into question anybodies maths,my point is why would anybody want to use a brand of snow foam that requires 680ml of product for the same cleaning effect as another product using 5ml.do you see my point.

[Steviewevie]

steviewevie,i am not bringing into question anybodies maths,my point is why would anybody want to use a brand of snow foam that requires 680ml of product for the same cleaning effect as another product using 5ml.do you see my point.

Yes, I see what you mean. It depends if the 5ml amount really is enough to achieve the desired effect. I use approx 300ml of the BH foam per clean, which works out at about 85p a go. I don't begrudge paying that for something that appears to work well.

[dgman]

steviewevie,i am not bringing into question anybodies maths,my point is why would anybody want to use a brand of snow foam that requires 680ml of product for the same cleaning effect as another product using 5ml.do you see my point.

Yes, I see what you mean. It depends if the 5ml amount really is enough to achieve the desired effect. I use approx 300ml of the BH foam per clean, which works out at about 85p a go. I don't begrudge paying that for something that appears to work well.

sorry about the typo,it is of course 50ml which works out at 10p per wash and 8.5p after i have reclaimed the vat.

[Steviewevie]

steviewevie,i am not bringing into question anybodies maths,my point is why would anybody want to use a brand of snow foam that requires 680ml of product for the same cleaning effect as another product using 5ml.do you see my point.

Yes, I see what you mean. It depends if the 5ml amount really is enough to achieve the desired effect. I use approx 300ml of the BH foam per clean, which works out at about 85p a go. I don't begrudge paying that for something that appears to work well.

sorry about the typo,it is of course 50ml which works out at 10p per wash and 8.5p after i have reclaimed the vat.

ok, are you sure it's 5% in the bottle they recommend ? And not delivered at the car ? Because after it's diluted by the foam lance, although it might foam well, there's going to be very little product on the car.

[dgman]

steviewevie,i am not bringing into question anybodies maths,my point is why would anybody want to use a brand of snow foam that requires 680ml of product for the same cleaning effect as another product using 5ml.do you see my point.

Yes, I see what you mean. It depends if the 5ml amount really is enough to achieve the desired effect. I use approx 300ml of the BH foam per clean, which works out at about 85p a go. I don't begrudge paying that for something that appears to work well.

sorry about the typo,it is of course 50ml which works out at 10p per wash and 8.5p after i have reclaimed the vat.

ok, are you sure it's 5% in the bottle they recommend ? And not delivered at the car ? Because after it's diluted by the foam lance, although it might foam well, there's going to be very little product on the car.

yes i am sure about the method which i checked with jetwash direct this morning.also i think tango is using a similar measure but i don't know what brand he is using.

[PJ S]

i can't beleive that i have just read a post on detailing world where a guy is using 680ml of bilt hamber snow foam in a 1000ml lance and bilt hamber and pjs agree with him that the dilution is correct,how on earth can you possibly need that much product.my suppliers instructions are 1-5% by volume in the lance not 68%.i think tango got it right,there is a lot of bs going on here.

btw,i checked with jetwash direct and their snow foam won't strip my lsp.

yes i am sure about the method which i checked with jetwash direct this morning.also i think tango is using a similar measure but i don't know what brand he is using.

Again, I reiterate (without wanting to get into an argument over this) there is no BS at work here!

You should only need 500ml of solution to to a typical car, and wheels/arches.

With BH AF, they've conducted a whitebox test, which is a repeatable test using specific criteria, and their foam pulled off the most dirt.

Now, if you're entirely happy with what you're using, and the methodology, then feel free to ignore the above, and continue on as you are/have been - BUT I will point out you've got your figure wrong.

I've just got off the phone with Steve from Jetwash, and after a few probing questions, it came to light the dilution ratio/percentage of 1-5% being discussed, was NOT the lance container solution strength, but the output at the nozzle of the pw. In other words, the PIR that I referred to above.

Therefore, if your lance setting and pw outputs 16L of water in total, by the time the lance container's 1L has been uplifted, then you're running a 15:1 ratio.

Ergo, the 1-5% you thought was the container solution, should be much higher.

So 50ml suddenly becomes 750ml! Divide by 2 for a half-full container, and you're at 375ml - 35ml MORE than BH's Autofoam.

So, there you are - now you know what you SHOULD be doing to achieve the right amount of foam strength.

If you don't believe me, please spend 5 mins talking with Pete at Bilt Hamber - he'll explain it all to you.

The 1" thing harks back to when the hosepipe attached Gilmore Foamaster was the new toy in the detailing circles, and people who've not bothered to research the subject matter to death like some *cough* *cough*, were transferring their flawed logic over to the pressure washer/foam lance method.

Water hardness also plays a part in the amount of product needed - but some, like BH AF, are coming with chelating agents as part of the ingredients to make hard water an non-issue, meaning everyone can use the same amount irrespective of their water's mineral content.

[dgman]

as i said earlier jetwashdirect have this morning told me that the dilution is in the bottle at a rate of 1-5%.now,in one of your earlier posts you said that i was using too much foam and therefore would strip away my lspand now you are saying that i need to use much more,not very consistant advise is it.

[Steviewevie]

as i said earlier jetwashdirect have this morning told me that the dilution is in the bottle at a rate of 1-5%.

They can't tell you how much to put in the bottle though, I'm afraid that doesn't make any sense. That's because they have no idea of the rate at which their product will come out of the bottle, as I said before that depends on your foam lance, your pressure washer and your water supply. The only thing they can try and define is the dilution ratio that works well at the end, i.e. out of the nozzle and onto the car.

For example, if another pressure washer delivers 10x as much water over the foam lance contents as yours, then they're going to be putting out the solution 10x as dilute, if they use the same ratio as you in the bottle.

[Tango]

Local water pressure can vary but I suggest as long as you have sufficient feed to the PW pump then the output from it is going to be fairly consistent. I'm not too big on the theory mentioned here, I just use the minimum amount of product to get a reasonable coating of foam that will dwell on the car for 5-6 minutes. My lance has a regulator on it that controls the rate of diluted product released into the pressurised water stream so I have experimented with the setting until the lance delivers enough foam to coat all the surfaces required i.e. I can foam the car completely before the bottle runs dry. Works for me. B)

....and it doesn't strip the carnauba wax as that hardly lasts between washes anyway. However, the polymer sealant protection stays on!

[PJ S]

as i said earlier jetwashdirect have this morning told me that the dilution is in the bottle at a rate of 1-5%.now,in one of your earlier posts you said that i was using too much foam and therefore would strip away my lspand now you are saying that i need to use much more,not very consistant advise is it.

You're right - not consistent advice, but then my earlier reply was based on the presumption that thick shaving foam almost always tends to occur when too much product has been used.

Not being au fait with Jetwash's Snow Foam, it would appear they have a heck of a lot of foaming agents in it.

Equally, the uncertainty of the nature of the TFR (could be a generic caustic formulation, as a number are), gave rise to the concern over its LSP stripping potential.

That said, irrespective of the earlier comments, the fact remains you've misunderstood what information was being given to you, or it took me to extract the correct info from Steve this afternoon.

Either way, the point is you should be aiming for 1-5% strength as the foam hits the car, which you're currently not achieving if you make the lance solution even 10% strong.

Do the maths as pointed out, just the once even, and see what difference it makes - aim for 2% strength (depending on the grime level) just to be safer than sorrier.

If it works, there you go then - if not, then revert back to what you're doing now. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

But, if the advice offered is falling on deaf ears, then there's nothing more to be said on the matter, and you should carry on regardless - just don't take the opportunity to call it BS, when you don't know the full ins and outs.

As I've already demonstrated, one phone call put the right information into this thread with regards to the brand of foam you introduced into it - that's because I knew the right questions to ask.

Not trying to be anything other than helpful where possible (certainly not big-headed), but when it comes to disagreeing with something, I work on the principle that it generally helps to have at least a modicum of knowledge about the subject under discussion.

And finally, there's no agenda here - it matters not which brand of Snow Foam anyone uses, all I'm aiming to do is enlighten those users with some knowledge they may have never otherwise came to learn about.

As always when it comes to freely given advice, everyone is free to ignore it should they choose to do so.

[PJ S]

Local water pressure can vary but I suggest as long as you have sufficient feed to the PW pump then the output from it is going to be fairly consistent.

The point about output (flow rate) I've mentioned, is not related to the mains pressure feeding the pw, but rather what the pw itself is designed/capable of chucking out.

So, if the pw you're using is fed with sufficient flow rate via the hosepipe attached, and has say a 6L per min output, whereas the one I use has 11L/min, then the dilution of the solution in the lance container in mine (assuming yours and my settings are the same, and uptake is identical even with tolerance factored in), then for the same amount of time you and I depress the trigger on our lances, I'll have nearly half the PIR % on my paintwork, as you do on yours.

So, if I were to adopt your 1" or whatever suggested measurement (assuming once again both containers were identical in diameter), then you can see why I wouldn't see the same resultant blanket of foam as you do.

This is why I believe, as anal as it may seem, the methodology suggested in the link is the only true one which everybody can use, so that they're all getting the same resultant output.

Only then, can true and proper comparisons between the various different brands (a lot are the same stuff re/self-branded) be made in relation to their effectiveness.

Trust me, if I thought for one moment it was BS, and that an inch of foam, topped up with warm water (using a cold water pick up!) was suitable advice for everyone to make use of, I wouldn't go to the lengths I have here in this thread.

[dgman]

pjs,valet pro ontheir website say to use 25-50ml per,cyc who supplied the lance said 1 inch in the bottle and most of the valeting pro's at detailing world are saying much the same.the exception to the trend seems to be posters using the bilt hamber product,i suggest that bh may not have the same cleaning strength like for like.why would i want to spend 80p or so for a wash per car when i can get the same cleaning ability for 10p.

[PJ S]

If you believe it's the same cleanliness after using, then fair enough.

I suspect the reason the "pros" are saying the same thing regarding 1" or 20-50ml, is because they simply can't be arsed to bother going through the rigmaroll of doing the maths.

I can't speak for them, all I know is Autofoam works as it does, and BH have tested against the other brands they were going to encounter upon entering the arena with the whitebox test.

Their products are extremely concentrated - Surfex HD, Autowash, and even Autobalm. Heck, the Autoclay is the biggest bargain with its composition and size for the price. All other 200g bars are well over £10/11, and nowhere near as effective whilst being benign to the paintwork.

Obviously I'm not privy to the formulation of AF, nor the other brands marketed as Snow Foam or Foaming TFR, so I can't say what level of active ingredients are in them, but I would question the aspect that they are 10x more effective than AF is, based on those numbers thrown about here.

Again, I point out Jetwash themselves agree the usage strength is of the foam itself, not the solution in the container being fed into the water stream - so straight away that throws the whole 1"/20-50ml argument up in the air.

Both sets of figures can't be right! And given the numerous lengthy conversations I've had with BH about this and other things, I know they're not BS'ing.

So, all I can honestly say, is some people must be deluding themselves that their pre-wash foaming routine is actually doing as much as it could/should/would if the right dosage was being used.

At this juncture, I'm bowing out of this thread, as I can think of nothing more I can add nor do to convince you/Tango/others lurking, that the correct usage involves a bit more than a dollop of foam topped up to the brim with warm water.

By all means, speak to BH and see if Pete can make a better case as to why he's/I'm right, and the "dollopers" are not.

I should point out, the mix ratio above I used, was an example, and not offered as hard and fast fact. Chances are the max setting on the lances sold by CYC, Auto-Rae Chem, and Autobrite Direct, are in and around the 5-7:1 mark - so the resultant amount of other foams, whilst less than BH's, is still a similar ballpark amount.

[Tango]

If my combination of PW (delivers 9 litres per minute), foam lance (not Karcher) and foam product (Valet Pro - PH Neutral Snow Foam) wasn't doing an adequate job with the dilution rate I'm using (it's 10-15 mm in the bottle so around 1/2" of undiluted product, not 1"), then I guess I'd be back to the manufacturer to find out what I may be doing wrong. In reality it does the job I expected it to do for a very reasonable cost, so thanks for the info on the theory, but I'll carry on with my current practice. Of course it may be that I've stumbled on the ideal ratio by accident...perhaps I'll test the theory and find out

[dgman]

i have been having a little trouble with the brass bayonet fitting on the hd lance being very tight on the karcher lance,tim at clean your car sent a pvc replacement foc which fits perfectly,nice to see ood service.

just thought some of you may be having similar problems.

[Tango]

i have been having a little trouble with the brass bayonet fitting on the hd lance being very tight on the karcher lance,tim at clean your car sent a pvc replacement foc which fits perfectly,nice to see ood service.

just thought some of you may be having similar problems.

I have the same problem with the brass fitting. Quite difficult to get in and out unless all pressure is off, and then still not easy.

[dgman]

i have been having a little trouble with the brass bayonet fitting on the hd lance being very tight on the karcher lance,tim at clean your car sent a pvc replacement foc which fits perfectly,nice to see ood service.

just thought some of you may be having similar problems.

I have the same problem with the brass fitting. Quite difficult to get in and out unless all pressure is off, and then still not easy.

try your supplier,he may send you one foc but i suppose it depends on how long you have had the sf lance.my concern was that i would break the connection on the pw.the plastic fitting is as good as the karcher original although i hav'nt used it yet,i will give it a shot today.