Lightbrows - Potential Safety Issue

[Yaumeister]

I haven't commented as I feel what I say may be regarded as biased as I'm a friend of Snowman. Futhermore, as this is a business matter I don't think I'm in any position to comment as I play no part in it.

Obviously I share the same concern as others, as a fire hazard is a major issue.

However, to set the record straight here are some questions that I feel still hasn't been answered, I'll try to be objective but please do excuse me if I do appear biased (consider me playing "devil's advocate" if you may).

Did Mossyn source his brows from Snowman? While he has previously posted on the forum regarding his enquiry to Snowman about the brows, at this point is it still an assumption that he got them from Snowman, or has this fact been established?

Is it a product problem or an installation problem? Again I feel we are already pointing fingers before we have all the facts.

How many cases of castatrophic failures are there? Is this a one time incident or is there a sign of systematic failure, even with good quality control there is a possibility of a "lemon" slipping through.

To clarify, yes an issue has arised from an installation with Snowman's product, but the likely cause was improper installation resulting in a "dead short" with the door sensor circult (as much as I can understand from Geoffers), and as it's a different product from the headlamp LED strips, I don't believe this has any implications on the product issue that you are dealing with.

In regards to Snowman's whereabouts, last I spoke to him (about a week before WIM meet) he is going back to Taiwan to deal with some family issues in June, I'm not sure if he has already left or not.

[redz_UK]

I haven't commented as I feel what I say may be regarded as biased as I'm a friend of Snowman. Futhermore, as this is a business matter I don't think I'm in any position to comment as I play no part in it.

Obviously I share the same concern as others, as a fire hazard is a major issue.

However, to set the record straight here are some questions that I feel still hasn't been answered, I'll try to be objective but please do excuse me if I do appear biased (consider me playing "devil's advocate" if you may).

Did Mossyn source his brows from Snowman? While he has previously posted on the forum regarding his enquiry to Snowman about the brows, at this point is it still an assumption that he got them from Snowman, or has this fact been established?

Is it a product problem or an installation problem? Again I feel we are already pointing fingers before we have all the facts.

How many cases of castatrophic failures are there? Is this a one time incident or is there a sign of systematic failure, even with good quality control there is a possibility of a "lemon" slipping through.

To clarify, yes an issue has arised from an installation with Snowman's product, but the likely cause was improper installation resulting in a "dead short" with the door sensor circult (as much as I can understand from Geoffers), and as it's a different product from the headlamp LED strips, I don't believe this has any implications on the product issue that you are dealing with.

In regards to Snowman's whereabouts, last I spoke to him (about a week before WIM meet) he is going back to Taiwan to deal with some family issues in June, I'm not sure if he has already left or not.

have to sat you made a far few points there..

i think to understand what happened we need to understand a bit more how mossyn installed. the only thing i can thin of that would cause a 'fire' is if the plastic holding the leds got too hot and melted or if the wire got too hot but would think this unlikely as it very low current..

as far as i know leds dont get hot when on??

[DJ Wozza]

I don't want this in anyway to become a Snowman witch hunt.

As Yaumeister says, we don't know for certain he bought them from Snowman,

(even though we believe it to be the case) or how they were fitted to the car.

Once Mossyn confirms/answers the previously posed questions,

Can Mossyn take some pictures of the installation showing

also let us all know where they were sourced from,

how they were wired,

if a fuse was used,

what electrical connector was used (scotchlock, bullet, black tape etc)

and also wether they were in use,

or recently used,

how long they had been fitted for until this occurence,

the suggested reason for failure/fire

we will all be in a better position to decide if they stay of go from our cars, or if (like me) they actually get fitted in the first place.

Mine were not sourced from Snowman, but from another supplier. The products do look identical.

Maybe there is a way to fit a 0.5-1 amp quick blow fuse, and also a resistor to ensure that if a single bulb fails,

the eyebrows are safeguarded.

Geoffers or another electrically qualified person may possibly be able to give us some advice on a safe solution ?

[Geoffers]

To clarify, yes an issue has arised from an installation with Snowman's product, but the likely cause was improper installation resulting in a "dead short" with the door sensor circult (as much as I can understand from Geoffers), and as it's a different product from the headlamp LED strips, I don't believe this has any implications on the product issue that you are dealing with.

Yes - this is how it appears. It has killed the feed to it. (Funny - I was looking at the ECU only Friday for a possible solution to this) I couldn't say how this happened but experience and the type of fault it is suggests a short across the feed rather than anything else. There appeared to be no damage or fault with the new door light itself.

Geoffers or another electrically qualified person may possibly be able to give us some advice on a safe solution ?

I have mate - in post #9 but will draw a diagram and try and give more info.

You are right - I wouldn't want this to turn into a Snowman hunt but this info really should be provided with the units if they were being sold with full knowledge of how/where they were being installed.

Regardless of anything that has or hasn't happened, there is potential for fire if they are connected directly to the lighting circuit without a fuse. This should be in all instructions wherever you buy them from.

Ok, we are never going to know properly, but what we do know is that a fire can't start without energy. This energy comes in the form of electricity in this case. For the wires to smoke or even the unit itself, there must have been enough current flowing for that energy to thermally break down a component. Now, the fuse is protecting the lighting circuit but these LED's are very low current devices and wouldn't carry the flow it takes to blow the fuse, resulting in smoke city.

Does anyone have the original instructions they could scan in or electronic form? If I adapted those it may be better.

[sparkystav]

Geoffers there isnt any specific instructions.

All that was suggested was to scotchlock into the side light wires a positive and a negative and connect the LED eyebrows in parrallel to the normal sidelight. And as i said before the LED's are indeed in parrellel and serial in groups of three. 24in total.

So a Fuse wouldnt help the situation? i was thinking of getting a little 240plug type fuse (cant remember the size, but we've shedloads at work) but a 500MAmpquick blow from work and an inline fuse holder?

Stav

[corsavandal]

Yaumi has made some great points here especially that the origin of the mod is still unknown! a search on eBay brings up alot of similar products, one of which is a pair that i baught and now have fitted.

We should maybe look at how long they were fit to the car before the incident, as i think Yaumi was the first person to have them fit and as yet has no problem to report.

also, why hasnt the owner of the car been on here to comment on it? If he had baught them of Snowman it would have been through here, so it would be the logical place to start in trying to contact him about the quality.

A final thought, if the car was being put onto a ramp at WIM why would the lights be on?

[DJ Wozza]

......why hasnt the owner of the car been on here to comment on it?

Only Mossyn can answer that

A final thought, if the car was being put onto a ramp at WIM why would the lights be on?

No-one has stated they were on at the time which makes it even more of a worrying issue.

Don't wanna park your car up after a trip. Go to bed, and then they spontaneously combust

taking your IS200 with them !!

I asked a lot of questions on page 1 of this thread (copied them above ) and until Mossyn answers them we are all in the dark.

(sorry couldn't resist it )

[Rob's Lexx]

I never expected this to turn into a 'withchunt' for the supplier. If i wanted to have it out with him i would have gone straight to him so to speak.

I, like a few others, are trying to reason the causes to this incident and then make a judgement call on if it were the supplier's negligence (not providing fuses, warning etc etc) to blame.

There must be a safe and suitable way to fit these to a car. In-line fuses i guess could the only real option.

The fact is, we're not talking about an issue where a component fails and the item stops working, thats it........we're talking about the chance of a fire breaking out under the hood!! now thats a scary thought and needs to be sorted!!

i really hope mossyn gets on here and posts regarding this issue, as to be honest, he's the one in the know about his installation, supplier, etc etc etc. its maybe the case to take some sort of moral 'responsibility' so to speak.

@wozza, i can only guess the lights were on mate?? maybe it was set on auto and they came on (with the car being indoors) when the ignition was turned over??

[Yaumeister]

A final thought, if the car was being put onto a ramp at WIM why would the lights be on?

It's probably on "auto" lights, but then I'm assuming here.

Edit, Rob got there before I did.

[DJ Wozza]

I never expected this to turn into a 'withchunt' for the supplier.

I don't think this is one Rob, we just want to get to the bottom of the issue, learn the facts, & then make an educated judgement

as to wether there is a completely safe way for these to be fitted, or wether people should remove them.

@wozza, i can only guess the lights were on mate??

I will ask Tony, but I am pretty sure it would have been stated if they were on.

Hopefully Mossyn will answer the questions posed and we can put the issue to bed once & for all.

I would suggest he might be reluctant if he feels his own wiring or lack of fusing possibly LED to this.....:o :o :o

[Yaumeister]

I'm glad you have cleared it up Rob that this is not a witch hunt, but I can see why some people may have wrongly used the term after reading the statements below.

From what i have been told, and in part what i have found out myself, the lightbrows in question were purchased from Hyper Lighting (a company that has close ties/part run by a member on here with the user name Snowman - although he is not a registered trader)....

... If there is a design fault (lack of appropriate fusing etc) then this is an issue that needs to be raised with the seller (and believe me i'm MORE than happy to do that!!!!). If it is a case of gross neglect on the part of the seller, then further action can and should be taken on mass...

you are correct in what u have heard and i know who ur talking about. unfortunately, i get the feeling snowman won't wanna have anything to do with returns etc...

[TigerFish]

the lightbrows in question were purchased from Hyper Lighting (a company that has close ties/part run by a member on here with the user name Snowman - although he is not a registered trader).

If it is a case of gross neglect on the part of the seller, then further action can and should be taken on mass.

I have been told that Snowman was told about this (fire hazard) back at the TDi meet last november 2007, but he said that the person did not know what he was on about :o Looks like the person was right this time B)

If i had a set. i would be sending them back asking for my money back, as your lexus could go up in smoke :o

i get the feeling snowman won't wanna have anything to do with returns etc - he's not been on LOC for ages.

Well thats just not right Rob He has known about the fire hazard,

I have his phone number if anyone wanting it

i haven't tried to contact him and the reason for that is (and i'm being quite correct here) that i wanted to gather any prior knowledge, opinions and evidence before i go in gung ho!!

maybe he could ask him to show his face on the forum and we can maybe get to the bottom of this??

but if i hadn't of heard about this and my car had burnt then i guarantee there would have been some serious ***** whooping!!

but i think it has something to do with what Snowman has fitted to Yaumeister car

I know I have no interest in this topic other than reading it, but from that perspective i can sit quite easily on the fence. When people keep saying this isn't a witch hunt, it sure does sound like one. If I was Snowman, I wouldn't come on here as some of the quotes above are as yet unjustified and some are just plain aggressive. If people are just trying to get to the facts (and apparently that is all anyone wants........ bar the comments about getting refunds etc ), why keep speculating when people just need to wait for answers from the guy who had the initial problem at WIM? In the meantime, disconnect them if you have them fitted and wait.

Edit: Looks like Yauwmeister beat me to it

[DJ Wozza]

Trouble is I don't think Mossyn will answer our questions (I hope I am proved totally wrong)

also let us all know where they were sourced from,

how they were wired,

if a fuse was used,

what electrical connector was used (scotchlock, bullet, black tape etc)

and also wether they were in use,

or recently used,

how long they had been fitted for until this occurence,

the suggested reason for failure/fire

Once these are answered things will be much clearer.

[Rob's Lexx]

Yaumeister, here's something for you to consider.....

if my car goes up in smoke for something that was sold to me as a "safe device" and it is found to be faulty, then i aint gonna be happy am i? if that means i have to, until i know otherwise, have some feeling of blame towards the supplier then i will. end of.

i don't appreciate people trying to say that i'm tarnishing someone's name for no good reason. i have a valid arguement and i said from the off that this thread was about trying to get to the bottom of the issue. i merely stated what repurcusions there would, from a personal perspective, if it was a suppliers fault (as if its a case of bad fitment, then there's no-one to blame but yourself)

@Tigerfish, yes mate, i can see where ur coming from. but the fact of the matter is that my comments were made in a 'if the seller is to blame' fashion. if i truly believed it was solely the fault of the company concerned i wouldn't have bothered starting a thread, i'd have been in touch with them personally....and, thus far, i haven't.

Additionally, what's up with wanting refund if there is a design fault??

Anyway, it'd be more beneficial if we could get this back on topic and maybe try and gather some more info from Tony (Wim) and Mossyn regarding the issue.....

[Yaumeister]

As I have stated in my first post in this thread, I share the same concern as others, as a fire hazard is a major issue. In fact, I believe this thread is important because the issue involved affects the safety of our cars, and I commend you for starting this thread. The only thing I disagree with are statements that may be considered "prejustice", and these seem to be made under assumptions that may or may not be the facts. I don't think I'm the only one that came to this conclusion, as various members stated that I have made some valid points.

As this is a thread about "investigation" into a product, I guess I have watched enough CSI to point out things that are still missing, facts and evidence. And from the same TV shows, there is usually dramatic build up of tensions and feelings of injustice, but the right thing to do as the supervisor (Grisom) always end up saying is along the lines of "don't be clouded by your feelings, stick with the evidence". So all I ask is for this thread to keep to that high standard.

Lastly, and this is for public record, this isn't the first time I've got involved with some "disagreement" with Rob regarding Snowman. For whatever it is worth, being in a car club is something I want to enjoy and certainly make friends and not enemies, so for whatever I did before and probably now that we don't see eye to eye on, I do apologise and please let bygones be bygones.

Right, I guess that is my speech over, I shall withdraw myself from this matter :shutit: as my eletronic skills is less then ziltch and unlikely to contribute to any technical investigation.

[Geoffers]

I'm getting a ton of PM's over these. I have to moan now to get my point across.

1. I do not know how this happened, I can only suggest safeguards and possibilities.

2. I do not know Snowman or the situation in which he sold them and what was provided.

3. Stav has pointed out there are no actual instructions, therefore all safeguards and responsibility lies with the installer.

4. As much as you moan to me, I cannot help. What do you expect me to do? I was never involved and know nothing about these. I know about wiring and electronics. I'm only offering advice. Advice I shall soon retract and you can burn your cars to pieces if you want to.

5. It may not be the units, it may have been the install. WE DO NOT KNOW.

6. Items go faulty and blow fuses all the time. Yes, you would expect a replacement item at the least. If the fuse isn't there and there is a fire, then you can't blame the item for the actual fire. That is consequential.

7. If the unit itself caused the fire after all precaution and safeguards are in place, then yes, you absolutely have the right to return to the supplier and take things further. It isn't something I can't comment on or anyone can prove with a one off.

8. If you are so concerned as to PM me, take them off immediately but don't bother arguing that a fuse won't help.

A fuse could have prevented this. Please Read why.

If you are doubtful as to why there should be a fuse, then please do not install them and get a qualified person to do it.

Why would anyone argue against a safeguard? a 49p fuseholder? Especially on a unit that could be hit by stones or anything causing a short at that point? Kids poking things even, the harsh environment, rain, cold, heat - all physical factors due to their position.

If a fuse was connected as close to the Lex wiring as possible, as low current as possible, then the fuse wouldn't have allowed that much current to pass. This is why there are fuses everywhere.

If you tap off too small a device for the fuse and wiring, then the unit or its wiring will burn before the fuse blows. Simple as.

If this wasn't the case then why not just have a big 100A fuse coming off your Battery and no others.......

Why are there so many fuses in the car anyway?

They all come from a single point - don't be fooled just because you are coming off a single circuit that the circuit will protect your new equipment. Why would it?

You are using low current technology that the Lexus wiring wasn't designed around. It will quite happily push out the current.

Ok, in their house, would anyone put in a mains extractor fan without a fused spur? The same applies.

If you don't know beforehand then fine, but after several explanations on here, I fail to see why people can't understand that it is EXCESS CURRENT that will cause a fire. Excess current could be a short circuit, faulty equip, etc. the unit or its wiring will blow before the fuse. Don't forget a fuse blowing is just excess current and it burns quickly in a controlled environment.

I'm not suggesting a fuse protects every single possibility but you are certainly reducing your risk factors by MASSIVE percentages. You are adding a weaker point into the system - one you have full control of.

I'm sorry for the rant and this isn't directed at anyone in particular but I have PM's of people trying the ARGUE this point. Please don't, I'm rapidly losing respect and quite frankly find it shocking. I don't have to and won't argue my case at all with anyone.

There's an additional potential hazard I've discovered only this morning on the way someone had wired them. I'll put down the Maplin part no's in a mo.

I will not argue this. Its up to you.

[Rob's Lexx]

yaumeister, i aint falling out with anyone matey. i wanna get to the bottom of it, that's it.

I'm a chemist mate, i don't make any conclusions from anything until i have hard proof and characterisation on more than one front. in my line of work its not enough to take one characteristic trend and associate it with X, Y or Z, there needs to be more.

I guess the only way of ever understanding this incident is with input from Mossyn, until then everyone, myself included can only speculate.

[DJ Wozza]

I don't think we will get anywhere with information from Mossyn,

he wa logged in earlier today, but somehow he missed this thread entirely :o

[corsavandal]

makes me think there's NOTHING wrong with the eye brow then and more likely to be down to the fitter.

[redz_UK]

i think this has done its time.. as geoffers said.. if you want to take precautions then add a fuse..

as with any mod, its at your own risk.. and even a fuse wont help if its due to heat..

maybe we should all agree to let it be until either mossyn or snowman respond..

[Scorps01]

Wow.....this thread has come on a bit.

I have a soulution for everyone that has the offending Led's fitted that were or were not supplied by a member or at least until someone can get in touch with Snowman.

unplug them and take them off until its resolved by not doing so may only leave you with a lot of grief and heartache (your car up in smoke).

simple but effective dont you think :D

[84Stoney]

I have been watching this with interest since the first WIM post.

I do not have brows fitted, but have been meaning to for some time.

In my opinion, no valueable conclusion can be drawn with out first speaking to Snowman, Mossyn and whoever installed them on his car. The fault could have been down to many factors of which we are not aware, mainly the instalation.

Obviously people care deeply for the safety of their vehicle, but before the mob mentality takes hold, a clear explanation of all the relevent facts is needed! Some of the posts here may be perceived as a little aggressive, whether they were intended that way or not.

I don't see why everyone is panicing so much. This is, as yet, an isolated incident, in which nothing and nobody has been proven to be at fault.

If you are worried, I think Geoffers makes several very good points above.

[DJ Wozza]

Wondering still why Mossyn is staying shhhtum ?? :o

[Mossyn]

First of all, I totally agree with Rob's Lexx comments regarding the importance of these forums. The wealth of knowledge, experience and advise that members share can only be described as admirable.

Unfortunately there are people that appear to be just legends in their own minds who judge, form opinions and condemn people at the drop of a hat.

A number of questions have been asked and I will answer all but one.

I am not going to divulge the name or names of who supplied the LED strips. I believe a witch hunt was formed regarding this incident and I will not be a party to it.

I was the individual that installed the strips. They were fitted in parallel into the sidelight circuit using crimped butt connectors and they were not individually fused as I thought that the sidelight fuse would be sufficient.

The strips were mounted on top of the headlamp units using double sided tape. They were sealed around the back and sides using a clear silicon.

At the time the lights were in Auto mode. The car was started in preperation to move it to another ramp. Immediately smoke was spotted coming from the offside headlamp area. The ignition was turned off, the door and bonnet opened.

I found that the strip was slowly burning along its length from the supply end (somewhat like a fuse would do on a stick of dynamite) but with only a dull red glow. I immediately pulled the wires from the strip.

There was no damage to the wires from where it was connected into the sidelight circuit to where it entered the strip.

There was no sign of the wires touching anything and causing it to short out.

These lights have been fitted to my car since February. They were turned on all the time the car was used.

Perhaps the corner of the bonnet was slowly damaging part of the strip when it was closed on the many occasions prior to the incident.

Of course, the strip itself could have been supplied faulty, but I doubt that considering the time span from when they were installed.

I know one thing for sure and that is I will be fitting another set to my car very soon.

Perhaps now with all the facts at hand, certain people can pass their opinion/judgement on me or my installation tecniques.

I only found out yesterday , whilst I was at work that this actual post was running.

Previously I was logging onto the LOC and monitoring my original post about my visit to WIM.

I feel I have said enough.

[DJ Wozza]

Thanks Mossyn for coming on and sharing this information with the Club.