Co2 Charge

[Parthiban]

Sorry to start another thread but had a slightly different question that I thought sat better in the "general" section.........basically following my rant on the other thread at the thought of paying £25 a day to drive a normal 2ltr saloon through central london it got me wondering what other cars actually produce less than 225g/cm3............

Having looked through the Lexus range, the only cars that sit under this threshold are the IS250 auto, and the hybrids. Everything else is over, to which I thought fair enough, let's see what the others do.

I was quite surprised to find that a BMW 530i M Sport is under 225, as is the CLS350. Therefore, while I still think the charge is ludicrous, if large 3-3.5ltr saloons can sit under this threshold, why don't Lexus's?

Is there any particular reason why Lexus engines have such a high CO2 output? They don't seem to produce a huge amount more power than the others, so it doesn't really make any sense

[DJ Wozza]

so the IS200 is in the £25 congestion Charge band ?

Ooh bugger :tsktsk:

[Parthiban]

so the IS200 is in the £25 congestion Charge band ?

Ooh bugger :tsktsk:

Yep mine is as its 231g/cm3 - only affected if your car's registered after 1st March 2001 though............

It's a right bugger, especially as they're scrapping the residents discount - so even if I'm driving out of town (which is the only real time I use the car) it will cost me £125 a week!

Worst part is that i'm only just in the zone, so I'll be paying that much money for 2 minutes worth of driving in the zone!!

[WylieCoyote]

Basically they're just trying to price people out of owning bigger cars. It's really not fair.

[Parthiban]

Basically they're just trying to price people out of owning bigger cars. It's really not fair.

Well that's actually what this thread was about, that there are some large 3ltr cars that have reasonable CO2 output, so what's wrong with Lexus's?

The thing that really annoys me is that they date it back to 2001, which was before people were even talking about CO2 emissions much............I can understand trying to influence the cars people buy going forwards, but for those who already have one, it's really unfair

[DJ Wozza]

Just another form of Stealth Tax in the name of Green issues :tsktsk: :tsktsk:

[Geoffers]

It's a right bugger, especially as they're scrapping the residents discount - so even if I'm driving out of town (which is the only real time I use the car) it will cost me £125 a week!

Worst part is that i'm only just in the zone, so I'll be paying that much money for 2 minutes worth of driving in the zone!!

Sorry to diversify slightly, but you don't get any discount even though you live there?

Is it only if the car is moving then? What if you lived by a camera that saw the car every day?

I would have thought the charge would be proportional to mileage within the zone. As you say, you would be charged to get out, yet I could drive around all day for the same charge?

Sorry to be ignorant, just don't really know.

Surely this is something for the court of humapean rights? Isn't there something about right to un-impeded travel from residence I remember reading a while ago? By paying a charge, that is restricting you. Probably totally off the mark and read it on a cornflake packet or something...

[Lexus2D]

The Raod Tax :tsktsk: Me Off :megaangry:

Just because of the year it shot up

[Parthiban]

Sorry to diversify slightly, but you don't get any discount even though you live there?

Is it only if the car is moving then? What if you lived by a camera that saw the car every day?

I would have thought the charge would be proportional to mileage within the zone. As you say, you would be charged to get out, yet I could drive around all day for the same charge?

Sorry to be ignorant, just don't really know.

Surely this is something for the court of humapean rights? Isn't there something about right to un-impeded travel from residence I remember reading a while ago? By paying a charge, that is restricting you. Probably totally off the mark and read it on a cornflake packet or something...

At the moment I get a 90% discount, but from October onwards, they're going to scrap this discount for anyone who has a car that produces more than 225g/cm3 of CO2. Yes only get charged if you drive the car in the zone, not for it being parked on the street during operational hours.

It's nothing to do with mileage unfortunately, just whether you're there or not. I literally live about half a mile into the zone (just south of euston road) and only ever use the car when I'm heading out of London. So far I haven't minded paying as it was only £4 per week. Going forwards this will now be £125 per week, which is extortionate!

That's actually quite a good idea about the European courts Geoff, will have to look into that. Effectively I don't want to drive in the zone, and am simply being penalised for where I live - although the eco moron will tell me to just get a different car!

Can't wait till they decide to turn on diesels as they're much worse. Yep less impact on the environment (so they say) but so much worse in terms of the health consequences..........guess they'll wait a few more years to saturate the market with diesels, and then they'll hit back!

You can't win!

[kam05]

so the IS200 is in the £25 congestion Charge band ?

Ooh bugger :tsktsk:

Yep mine is as its 231g/cm3 - only affected if your car's registered after 1st March 2001 though............

It's a right bugger, especially as they're scrapping the residents discount - so even if I'm driving out of town (which is the only real time I use the car) it will cost me £125 a week!

Worst part is that i'm only just in the zone, so I'll be paying that much money for 2 minutes worth of driving in the zone!!

So what you are saying is that I can drive my October 2000 regd. IS200 through central London and I don't pay £25? Why? The engine is same as your 2002 IS200...

If you're regularly drive through central London (I don't), get yourself an IS200 which was regd. before March 2001

[ROYT]

Stealth tax fellas'..shame the whole area cannot be boycotted, any business should move away as soon

as they can.

Then let Ken pay for the loss of rates etc.......

[Einstein]

Can't someone just get rid of "Red Ken" ????

Gawd help us if the loony libs get in next time...

I really need to win the lottery and emigrate :)

John

[Giblet]

in answer to the original post.... is the reason BMW and Mercedes have lower CO2 because they are based on the standard car which is has zero equipment level as standard and by the time you spec it up, the co2 level will increase similar to lexus which has equipment standard.

It is however another negative for Lexus on advertising if this is the case, as more people are going to go straight to BMW etc dealers to buy what they believe is a lower co2 emitting car. Once these dealers hve them in their sights, are they going to walk out and look at another marque or buy a model with the spec that gets below the level they want.

Totally agree with the ridiculous nature of it, especially when i checked that the GS300 has 230+ and the IS300 256 co2 levels, so my rare trips into London are going to get rarer.

[Northern Boys Luv Gravy]

in answer to the original post.... is the reason BMW and Mercedes have lower CO2 because they are based on the standard car which is has zero equipment level as standard and by the time you spec it up, the co2 level will increase similar to lexus which has equipment standard.

I can't agree with this. For example a BMW 325i petrol has a CO2 output of 170 g/km compared to the equivelent Lexus IS250 manual of 231 g/km. Are you saying that swopping fabric for leather seats, upgrading the radio and one or other bits of frippery add 60g/km? I can't believe that.

The reason BMWs emit less CO2 is because they have developed engines that produce less CO2 and put in the new stop/start technology that switches off the engine when stationary. Lexus can reduce the CO2 output of their cars - the new IS250 auto emits less than the old IS200, despite the bigger engine, and falls under the congestion charge limit of 225g/km - they just need to be a bit more clever with the new technology. Hybrids are good, but an expensive option compared to a simple stop/start system.

[Parthiban]

Yep that's absolutely correct, the only thing that normally changes the CO2 output is fitting larger and wider wheels, but the car I've quoted above is a 530MSport so therefore has the large 18" alloys.

However, BMW have not yet implemented stop start on the larger engines and Mercedes doesn't even use the technology yet..............so their engines are simply a lot more efficient.

I think hybrids can work, but Lexus need to start playing the game too. BMWs stop start system is awful, but helps get emissions down to satisfy these eco morons, and you can switch the system off so it won't actually bother you at any point.

[durg]

All the new BMW's use direct injection technology which allows them to achieve greater combustion efficiencies and hence lower CO2 levels. As Parthiban said the stop/start techonology isn't on the big engined BMWs yet. The Mercedes CLS350 CGI uses a lean burn strategy which is why it appears to have a very low CO2 level for a 3.5 litre engine. Again - new technology. The IS250 uses direct injection which is why it is much better than the older engines.

The addition of extra stuff won't alter the CO2 much, only adding lots and lots of weight and putting fatter tyres on does this - and anyway the reported CO2 figures (which is what the tax people work from and the OEMs quote) are calculated using the standard models without any optional extras.

[Mike_B]

The reason BMWs emit less CO2 is because they have developed engines that produce less CO2 and put in the new stop/start technology that switches off the engine when stationary. Lexus can reduce the CO2 output of their cars - the new IS250 auto emits less than the old IS200, despite the bigger engine, and falls under the congestion charge limit of 225g/km - they just need to be a bit more clever with the new technology. Hybrids are good, but an expensive option compared to a simple stop/start system.

The IS250 emits less because the straight-6 in the IS200 is basically a development of an engine out the late 1960s. The new V6 is a brand new engine designed with emissions as well as smoothness in mind - the IS200 was conceived and developed before the current obsession with CO2 emissions.

Having said that, every time I worry about the running costs of my GS, I think about the IS before it - and smile when I realise that it was in the same band for road tax and congestion charge anyway! :)

[Guest inicol63]

Does this mean that all the 4.0 litre Jags that our goverment are driving will also need to pay £25 a day.

I think this means that as tax payers we will not only pay for our vehicle, we will be paying for every M.P as well.

We are so lucky

How can anyone afford to pay £125 per week.

Red Ken your a sick jokers, that needs booting out as soon as possible.

Even if you try to go to London on a train you can not get a seat, so how is the normal person to get to work.

Red Ken will tell you by the bike lanes are going to be funded by the money raised through collection of his tax.

Most people that work in London travel average 15-25 miles each way, each person travelling up to London via bike will be fit as a fiddle or dead.

Our goverment is not working for us but governing us.......

[Giblet]

The addition of extra stuff won't alter the CO2 much, only adding lots and lots of weight and putting fatter tyres on does this - and anyway the reported CO2 figures (which is what the tax people work from and the OEMs quote) are calculated using the standard models without any optional extras.

I don't think that is the case. I recall a thread somewhere from someone querying why when they went for the larger wheels their CO2 went up from the one that was quoted. The final spec of the car is what the CO2 is based on, so if it is heavier it will have a higher CO2 than a lighter car as it requires more power. Having said that i do accept the change in technology, my point was that these are artificially even lower due to lower specifications.

[Parthiban]

How can anyone afford to pay £125 per week.

Yep it really is ridiculous isn't it, and some call this a developed country.........

I don't think that is the case. I recall a thread somewhere from someone querying why when they went for the larger wheels their CO2 went up from the one that was quoted. The final spec of the car is what the CO2 is based on, so if it is heavier it will have a higher CO2 than a lighter car as it requires more power. Having said that i do accept the change in technology, my point was that these are artificially even lower due to lower specifications.

It is wheels that is the main contributor to changing CO2 levels as far as optional spec is concerned, which is why I quoted above using the example of a 530 Sport, so it has the wider 18" wheels fitted. The rest of the spec doesn't really make much of a difference, hence why a base IS250 auto has the same emissions as an IS250 SE-L with all the toys.........

As far as Mercedes is concerned, if you choose optional alloys, the CO2 emissions on your V5 is actually dependent on the wheels you choose, so you don't get away with it that way either (as an example, my dad's CLS has a higher CO2 emissions rating on the V5 because he has the 9.5" rear wheels)

[Giblet]

How can anyone afford to pay £125 per week.

Yep it really is ridiculous isn't it, and some call this a developed country.........

I don't think that is the case. I recall a thread somewhere from someone querying why when they went for the larger wheels their CO2 went up from the one that was quoted. The final spec of the car is what the CO2 is based on, so if it is heavier it will have a higher CO2 than a lighter car as it requires more power. Having said that i do accept the change in technology, my point was that these are artificially even lower due to lower specifications.

It is wheels that is the main contributor to changing CO2 levels as far as optional spec is concerned, which is why I quoted above using the example of a 530 Sport, so it has the wider 18" wheels fitted. The rest of the spec doesn't really make much of a difference, hence why a base IS250 auto has the same emissions as an IS250 SE-L with all the toys.........

As far as Mercedes is concerned, if you choose optional alloys, the CO2 emissions on your V5 is actually dependent on the wheels you choose, so you don't get away with it that way either (as an example, my dad's CLS has a higher CO2 emissions rating on the V5 because he has the 9.5" rear wheels)

[jsj24uk]

No one in government is going to dictate to me what car I choose to drive. The answer is simple. Move your business out of London to somewhere else. Or, when you have your car serviced at Lexus, make sure you get a hybrid courtesy car, then you can go in and out as much as you want.

There can't be an easy way round this. Even when Ken retires from his current post of Mayor of London, can anyone actually see the likes of Boris Johnson or the other bloke getting rid of these rediculous charges? I for one can't. They are all as bad as one another and as soon as I can't wait to get out of this awfull country.

That's my 10p's worth again.

[ColinBarber]

The biggest issue for Lexus is the engines they use are designed for a worldwide market, the US mainly, and therefore CO2 levels are not a primary design issue.

BMW and MB being European based and having a massive company car market do everything they can to lower CO2 levels.

Toyota seem to have slipped back in standard engine technology whilst focusing on hybrid. They need to step it up again or produce hybrid powerplants for all their models.

[durg]

I stand corrected

It makes a whole 5 g/km difference on the Merc going from the standard wheels to the 18" rims. You learn something new very day :)

[Northern Boys Luv Gravy]

No one in government is going to dictate to me what car I choose to drive. The answer is simple. Move your business out of London to somewhere else. Or, when you have your car serviced at Lexus, make sure you get a hybrid courtesy car, then you can go in and out as much as you want.

Sadly, under Ken's new rules, hybrid cars are no longer exempt from the charge unless their CO2 output is less than 120g/km. Hybrids like the GS450h or RX400h will pay £8 per day.