Engine Rattle On Cold Start

[james250]

Thanks for that Mark, your replies are always very informative and helpful.

If the garage put 5W30 in yours and you had to use BG MOA to stop the rattle, that's strange because the IS250 is supposed to take the 5W30. I've got 5W30 Mobil 1 in mine, my most recent oil change I changed from Magnatec 5W30 to Mobil 1 5W30 because the Magnatec was getting low quicker. With the Mobil 1 5W30, the car only consumed 0.5L in 3000miles and the oil still looks in good clean condition.

I'm wondering if I should try adding the BG MOA. What size is the bottle and what's the procedure to add it? Is there any risks of using MOA? Is it maybe a good idea to use MOA with every oil change? Is it like something you add in just like topping up oil?

Is the rattle noise potentially damaging to the engine? The rattles you were getting before using BG MOA, was it the same VVTI rattle or noisy injectors?

[normski2]

Thanks for that Mark, your replies are always very informative and helpful. If the garage put 5W30 in yours and you had to use BG MOA to stop the rattle, that's strange because the IS250 is supposed to take the 5W30. I've got 5W30 Mobil 1 in mine, my most recent oil change I changed from Magnatec 5W30 to Mobil 1 5W30 because the Magnatec was getting low quicker. With the Mobil 1 5W30, the car only consumed 0.5L in 3000miles and the oil still looks in good clean condition. I'm wondering if I should try adding the BG MOA. What size is the bottle and what's the procedure to add it? Is there any risks of using MOA? Is it maybe a good idea to use MOA with every oil change? Is it like something you add in just like topping up oil? Is the rattle noise potentially damaging to the engine? The rattles you were getting before using BG MOA, was it the same VVTI rattle or noisy injectors?

Have a read here...might help

http://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/product.php/5/bg-moa-engine-oil-friction-fighter--petrol-engines-

[james250]

I've ordered a bottle of MOA. what is the directions of use? I believe the volume in the bottle is 325ml. Do I just open oil filler cap and empty the bottle in just like topping up oil? Also, most of the information i've found says to add it with new oil during oil change. My last oil change was done mid-april and i've covered 3.5k miles already so wondering if I should wait for new oil change or is it ok to add it at this stage? I guess with a new oil change I wont know if the new oil is making the difference or the MOA, whereas right now the rattle happens intermittently so if it stops then might be the MOA?

[normski2]

I don't know for certain...i've not used it.

I imagine the instructions will be on the side of the tin. I think you are probably right in that you pour the whole tin in and let it circulate to do its business. Probably pour it in just before you are going somewhere.

I guess if you want to know if it silences the rattle....pour it in now.

[ChumpusRex]

I thought I'd update this. For the last 3 months or so, I've been noticing really smelly exhaust, proper rotten eggs, especially if I take the last 400 yards quickly.

I couldn't work out where this sulphur smell was coming from. That's when I realised that it corresponded to the time I put the MOA in, and the main active ingredient in MOA is... sulphur containing lubricants.

[is200 Newbie]

Something amiss there

Whats the state of the oil?

How many miles have you done since the oil change?

Does the car still rattle on startup?

Is the car using oil ?

Seems odd you should have the smell of the "ingredients" of the additive if it was poured into the engine along with oil unless its getting past the rings and burning?. I would expect changing the oil at the next oil change would take with it any deposits. In saying that, if the additive is working as it should to remove these deposits then your oil should turn black relatively quickly ...

[ChumpusRex]

The oil is clear and looks as expected for about 5000 miles on it.

A tiny bit is being used, maybe about 1/2 litre in 5000 miles.

Since the MOA went in, the engine is silent.

[is200 Newbie]

Interesting ... I had this issue but managed to get rid of it with oil changes, the only difference that some people frown on is that I was flushing the engine on each oil change

[ChumpusRex]

Only reason I put it in, was because after I took it for service, the rattle was about 1 million times worse. Terrible sound for about 10 seconds every start.

The garage (an independent) said they put 5W30 in, which is what I normally use, but I didn't have any oil to hand, so just asked them to use theirs.

I wonder if they put the wrong oil in, maybe a 0W20 or something. So, it was either pay £60 for another oil change or take a chance on a can of additive. I just chose the MOA because it sounded good. So, in it went, and total silence after that.

Possibly the smell is also sulphur in the oil, which might be the case if they used cheap oil. I normally use a low-sulphur synthetic "C2" oil, and never noticed the smell before.

[is200 Newbie]

I would say its more than likely to be the sulphur in the petrol that's smelling when burning off - what fuel are you using?.

In experiencing the smell during 3 months of driving I would expect the oil level to have dropped more than the half litre as you have said which leads me to think it could be petrol.

Shouldn't the cats remove all pollutants anyway, sulphur being one of them? Rather than thinking its the oil are you able to put the car on an emissions test to rule out the petrol causing the smell - it may be a small cost compared to replacing the cat if that's where the issue is coming from - it could also be a sensor issue in letting too much unburned fuel through, are you getting any backfires?

[ChumpusRex]

All petrol these days is ultra-low sulphur, so it shouldn't make much difference. It happens with both tesco unleaded and shell v-power.

The cats remove carbon monoxide, unburned fuel and oxides of nitrogen. If sulphur dioxide is present in the exhaust gas, then the cats may convert it to hydrogen sulphide (rotten eggs) under certain conditions.

Conceivably, it could be over fuelling (and this would encourage the cats to produce hydrogen sulphide, which can be formed if there is sulphur in the exhaust gas and there is unburned fuel present), but fuel trims and stuff all look pretty nice, so I think the O2 sensors are in reasonable condition.

We'll see what happens at the next oil change, when I'll try to get my usual C2 oil in.

[ChumpusRex]

Thought I'd post an update. Oil changed again for a 5W30 semi-synth A3 oil, and the rattle was back with a vengeance.

This time I tried a different additive - archoil AR9100. The MOA is a thick, treacly, clear liquid with a slightly sickly smell, but the AR9100 is a thin oily, muddy liquid which doesn't really smell of anything.

Much to my surprise the AR9100 has completely silenced the engine also.

[Mouser]

Thought I'd post an update. Oil changed again for a 5W30 semi-synth A3 oil, and the rattle was back with a vengeance.

This time I tried a different additive - archoil AR9100. The MOA is a thick, treacly, clear liquid with a slightly sickly smell, but the AR9100 is a thin oily, muddy liquid which doesn't really smell of anything.

Much to my surprise the AR9100 has completely silenced the engine also.

Why have you chosen a semi synthetic? To the best of my knowledge it's meant to take full synthetic.

[ChumpusRex]

Why have you chosen a semi synthetic? To the best of my knowledge it's meant to take full synthetic.

It was actually my mechanic who chose it, as it's what he had in stock.

Synthetic vs semi-synthetic isn't really that important. The key limiting factor is the additives.

Lexus specify a generic API SL or newer 5W30 oil. That's a very old specification, even the cheapest modern oils will easily meet it. The oil I used was a modern SN 5W30 oil which should far exceed lexus's recommendation.

[PatrickD9]

On 4/11/2009 at 8:59 PM, Kopite1989 said:

ITS THE GEARBOX MATE

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum perhaps some of you kind folk can assist or perhaps direct to where best my query should be addressed.

Car is a 2007 IS250 Sport 90k, I live in Dublin, it's a UK car that I've had since it was 6 month old.

Most recent and long term issue is the constant 'check VSC', 'triangle light', ‘transmission’ & 'traction control light' which yesterday prevented my car passing the NCT (Road worthiness certificate), bit of a problem this as without it car is effectively off the road come January.

Car drives very well, full Lexus main dealer service history but there have been some common well reported issues over the years (judder at low rev, callipers sticking, full clutch replacement [solution to judder, i still question that one] , new alternator recently as smoke was coming from under bonnet) but all told for 10 years driving not bad.

So the issue is that the Lexus dealer now tells me that the warning lights are a  result of a stretched timing chain, originally i was told that a chain tensioner would be the fix but now told that a full timing chain needed, I feel that garage is unsure of correct fix and am getting fobbed off a bit. Am being told that a new chain perhaps not a cost effective fix but to my mind the car should be good probably for another 70/80K if looked after.

Also, sometimes on acceleration there is a rattle type sound.

Any suggestion or indeed if this sounds like a problem you have encountered I'd love to hear.

Thanks, Patrick.

[david gray]

if you look through the pages of different views you will come across my answer,if it is a brief rattle just for a second or two, you want to change the oil and filter and purchase some archoil ar 9100 advanced friction modifier and oil additive from www powerenhancer.co.uk my 250 had done about 35.000 when it started to rattle,i came to the conclusion it was the camshaft stopping in the wrong place and allowing oil to drain away.

hope this helps I have been using archoil for a few years now and it works magic.

dave

 

[PatrickD9]

Thanks Dave,  appreciate the feedback, 

Do you think that may be sufficient to fix/remove re the warning lights on the dash?

[is200 Newbie]

6 hours ago, PatrickD9 said:

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum perhaps some of you kind folk can assist or perhaps direct to where best my query should be addressed.

Car is a 2007 IS250 Sport 90k, I live in Dublin, it's a UK car that I've had since it was 6 month old.

Most recent and long term issue is the constant 'check VSC', 'triangle light', ‘transmission’ & 'traction control light' which yesterday prevented my car passing the NCT (Road worthiness certificate), bit of a problem this as without it car is effectively off the road come January.

Car drives very well, full Lexus main dealer service history but there have been some common well reported issues over the years (judder at low rev, callipers sticking, full clutch replacement [solution to judder, i still question that one] , new alternator recently as smoke was coming from under bonnet) but all told for 10 years driving not bad.

So the issue is that the Lexus dealer now tells me that the warning lights are a  result of a stretched timing chain, originally i was told that a chain tensioner would be the fix but now told that a full timing chain needed, I feel that garage is unsure of correct fix and am getting fobbed off a bit. Am being told that a new chain perhaps not a cost effective fix but to my mind the car should be good probably for another 70/80K if looked after.

Also, sometimes on acceleration there is a rattle type sound.

Any suggestion or indeed if this sounds like a problem you have encountered I'd love to hear.

Thanks, Patrick.

90k is around the time that the air/fuel mix sensors will fail (usually around 70k to 80k) - buy an OBDII reader )£10 from eBay to give you an idea of the fault if the errors have not been read yet. If they have then what are the fault codes - surely the garage has checked this?

Never heard of the chain stretching although I suppose it can happen but very very rare - certainly not been reported on the forum before by any member but theres a first time for everything I guess.

It should not rattle on acceleration - it can rattle for a second or so on start up which is not a big deal, more annoying but can be resolved with regular oil changes and engine flushes.

I would recommend getting the error codes read - buy an OBDII reader then post back what the codes are. If its your sensors then its relatively straight forward in replacing them.

[PatrickD9]

Hi, Thanks a lot for the information, I have attached copy of the diagnostic report from 2016 as below, I had presumed that the main dealers' diagnosis of a stretched chain was the issue, i was dubious but isn't that why I've one pays for main dealer servicing... , as you have advised the fact that it's never been mentioned on forum before makes me think the explanation I've been given has question marks attached. Dealer had advised that the error posed no issue and so there was no reason to fix it.

If you could cast some light and opinion on the the error codification below I'd really appreciate it,

Thanks, Patrick,.

[PatrickD9]

And the other item I'd forgotten to mention is that the car probably for the last two years has been using a more oil than it ever used to. I haven't logged litres/mileage usage but pretty much never had to add any additional oil between services but now it is something I have to keep an eye on and top up when needed, probably every 6/8 weeks adding maybe 1/2 litre??

There no oil leak evident and again garage advised that older cars used more oil.

 

[is200 Newbie]

P0019 code seems to be the important one here - it looks like this one is controlling the outputs of the others

 

I am not an expert in this and others correct me if I am wrong but the sensor will detect the position of the cam and therefore if its out it will throw up the other faults you are seeing - if the chain is stretched which the dealer has indicated then the codes will be the result of this.

But like I say, its not been mentioned on this forum before that I am aware of so it could be an ancillary pulley that's failing?

[is200 Newbie]

8 minutes ago, PatrickD9 said:

And the other item I'd forgotten to mention is that the car probably for the last two years has been using a more oil than it ever used to. I haven't logged litres/mileage usage but pretty much never had to add any additional oil between services but now it is something I have to keep an eye on and top up when needed, probably every 6/8 weeks adding maybe 1/2 litre??

There no oil leak evident and again garage advised that older cars used more oil.

 

I would have expected to have seen a reduction in the MPG due to the ecu compensating for the "out of line" firing positions due to the cam/crank but not extra usage of oil as the engine will not compensate for this by burning the oil

It sounds like you have a couple of issues on the go here - do you know the history of the car?

[PatrickD9]

It was a garage demo car i bought from Lexus Brighton summer 2008, there was only 9K miles on it when i got it.

It's been serviced by main dealer ever since, I'm pretty good at looking after it so the service intervals were in line with recommendations over its' life.

 

[PatrickD9]

I found this link as below, any thought guys?

http://www.troublecodes.net/pcodes/p0019/

[is200 Newbie]

The fact that you have mentioned the drop in oil levels may be an indication that this has been the issue - with some VW engines the belt tensioners are pressurised by the oil, lack of oil can loosen the tension on the belts and they can fail or look like they have stretched due to the 'failing' tensioner (unpressurised) and also if there's not enough oil getting around the engine - specifically to the cams, then these can strain to work as they should, again adding pressure to the tensioner and belt / chain.

Not sure if the same principle applies to the Lexus engine. I don't think the chains would easily stretch as my thoughts are that they would throw more issues your way, rattling and noticeable rough engine running, they would more than likely break before stretching due to wear (but that would be excessive wear) - Pretty much agree with the garage that its the tensioner but if you get this replaced then the chain I would imagine would be checked at the same time?

But you have an issue with where the oil is going - no leaks seems to suggest its being burnt if its not entering the coolant?