17 Months In - New Issues

[Dayglows]

Hi all,

I have now had my IS250 SE with MM for over a year and a half now and after the initial issues with the shakes, rattles and squeaks I have had a few other anomolies pop up and I wondered if anyone else has the same. I have now done 19k in the car and it's coming up for it's second service but I want to check whether any one else was experiencing the same behaviors.

1. When I accelerate hard in 1st then 2nd then 3rd and then try to drop it into 6th the gears crunch. The same happens in 4th too. However, if I try to put in into 4th or 5th from 3rd the gearbox wont let me until the revs have dropped. It's only 6th that lets me 'try' to drop it stright in. Is this normal?

2. When I press start and the speedo and rev dials whizz around I now get a rattling sound from the dash like they are loose, although I doubt it's the needles themselves. I'm not sure even if that noise has been there all along and I have just never noticed it.

3. The last thing is something that I told Lex about when I had my first bout of issues. The seatbelt height adjustment in the drivers side pillar vibrates going over rough serfaces. Its so annoying. I originally thought it was the seatbelt itself or the door but when I hold the adjuster the vibration stops. So I'll certainly be asking for thise to be changed.

4. When it is sunny and I drop the drivers side sun visor it makes the most horrific squeak like an old rusty door. I'm sure this should be quite easy to fix.

I still get the odd intermittent rattle, crack and squeak but overall the cars held together quite well since Lex took it to their HQ to fix it.

Apart from the issues above, I still love getting into my Lex every day and having the silent drive to work. I have toyed with getting other cars but after getting into other cars it just makes me appreciate my Lex even more.

On another note, I bought my wife a Brand New A3 sportback with the DVD based Sat Nav. When we drove the car home we realised that our roadname was spelt incorrectly on the SatNav system. So every time we get in the car we can see our roadname displayed incorrectly which is slightly embarassing when we have passengers. Instead of Drive it displays Dirieve so it's not even close. When I raised it with the dealer they basically said unlucky. So I phoned Audi UK who said that I would have to phone the people who supply the maps to Audi and tell them. I was horrified. Basically Audi wanted to wash their hands of it. I am so grateful of the service I get from Lex when I have experiences like that. Any chance of me ever buying another Audi flew out of the window with that experience. Thank goodness for the customer service I get from Lex. :)

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Interesting reading....the Lexus has all manner of problems (including Lexus Technical intervention which never completely eradicated the rattles), yet you'll have another one

The Audi satnav has an incorrect spelling on the Teleatlas (or whoever) provided data, and you wouldn't have one again because of that...Sounds a bit harsh, especially when you expect theAudi to be worse than a Lex, which all owners keep saying are perfect!!! Especially when it comes to Customer Satisfaction index's...where they record the fewest faults...and best cust sat...

I know you didn't mean it like that...don't flame me...

To answer one of the questions, mine has an almost perfect gearbox from a change quality perspective...just 1st to 2nd sounds like a 1970 mini 1000cc...other than that it is a delightfully precise box.

[Dayglows]

I know what you meant Jam. ;) It was more the way that they treated me as a customer after taking 27k for the car. They just didn't seem interested in imporving their cars. I tried to help them help themselves but they had no process for feeding back problems with the car except through dealer reports that are sent to the factory for investigation, which the dealer incidentloy refused to do. They said it was just one of those things and I was just unlucky that it was the road that I lived on that was spelt incorrectly. Surely as a company that must have a massive contract with the map supplier for their discs they should at least have some concern for the quality of the maps being provided. The SatNav also did not have TMC working either which was advertised in the brochure. Audi said that thye 2006 discs did not have TMC enabled although it was clearly advertised in the brochure. They also did not want to fix the TMC until I pointed out that they had advertised it in the brochure as having TMC. So averall my experience with Audi has not been the best. So I will not get an RS4 that I had on my shortlist. Looks like the ISF is getting lonely on my ever decreasing shortlist. ;)

[bevrock]

Hi all,

I have now had my IS250 SE with MM for over a year and a half now and after the initial issues with the shakes, rattles and squeaks I have had a few other anomolies pop up and I wondered if anyone else has the same. I have now done 19k in the car and it's coming up for it's second service but I want to check whether any one else was experiencing the same behaviors.

1. When I accelerate hard in 1st then 2nd then 3rd and then try to drop it into 6th the gears crunch. The same happens in 4th too. However, if I try to put in into 4th or 5th from 3rd the gearbox wont let me until the revs have dropped. It's only 6th that lets me 'try' to drop it stright in. Is this normal?

2. When I press start and the speedo and rev dials whizz around I now get a rattling sound from the dash like they are loose, although I doubt it's the needles themselves. I'm not sure even if that noise has been there all along and I have just never noticed it.

3. The last thing is something that I told Lex about when I had my first bout of issues. The seatbelt height adjustment in the drivers side pillar vibrates going over rough serfaces. Its so annoying. I originally thought it was the seatbelt itself or the door but when I hold the adjuster the vibration stops. So I'll certainly be asking for thise to be changed.

4. When it is sunny and I drop the drivers side sun visor it makes the most horrific squeak like an old rusty door. I'm sure this should be quite easy to fix.

I still get the odd intermittent rattle, crack and squeak but overall the cars held together quite well since Lex took it to their HQ to fix it.

Apart from the issues above, I still love getting into my Lex every day and having the silent drive to work. I have toyed with getting other cars but after getting into other cars it just makes me appreciate my Lex even more.

On another note, I bought my wife a Brand New A3 sportback with the DVD based Sat Nav. When we drove the car home we realised that our roadname was spelt incorrectly on the SatNav system. So every time we get in the car we can see our roadname displayed incorrectly which is slightly embarassing when we have passengers. Instead of Drive it displays Dirieve so it's not even close. When I raised it with the dealer they basically said unlucky. So I phoned Audi UK who said that I would have to phone the people who supply the maps to Audi and tell them. I was horrified. Basically Audi wanted to wash their hands of it. I am so grateful of the service I get from Lex when I have experiences like that. Any chance of me ever buying another Audi flew out of the window with that experience. Thank goodness for the customer service I get from Lex. :)

i have a is 250sel manual and having about the same problem you are having i was told the have a kit to fix the gear problem. its will cover under waranty. i give up with the manual i am trading for the auto picking up on tueasday :D

[Northern Boys Luv Gravy]

You can't blame Audi because of a spelling mistake on a map supplied by a third party. All maps have errors on them and they are corrected and updated in future editions, but they won't just knock out a new one for you personally or even bring revision date forward (unless of course it was something serious like directing people the wrong way up a motorway etc.).

My first IS developed the noise when the dials spin round on start up. I took it to the dealer and they said it was normal and "they all do that", leaving my doubting myself as to never having heard it before. Needless to say my new IS doesn't make the noise and is silent on start up. Incidentally, when my first IS went back it had done 33k miles and still felt tight and new, the odd rattle (apart from start up) having been successfully sorted by the dealer. I pass it on the forecourt now, up for sale, with tinges of regret.

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Try this link:

Teleatlas

So I will not get an RS4 that I had on my shortlist. Looks like the ISF is getting lonely on my ever decreasing shortlist.

I'm defo getting the RS4, just need to convince the wife that I NEED one. It could get messy - I'll blackmail her by telling her that my mid life crisis could be unbearable for her, and the RS4 may go some way to making it better...

She might threaten to call the solicitors...

Crap dealers or not, the RS4 sends my pulse racing...might see what the ISF is like first....but I can't imagine it would be better...Audi make the best 'performance' quattro/AWD systems around, and my old A4 was fantastically well made....and Lexus are still "new" in this game...

[Dayglows]

Thanks for the reply Northern Boys. It wasn't that the map was incorrect as I know that not everything can be perfect all of the time but it was Audi's ignorance or willingness to even feedback to the suppliers that it needed correcting. It was a case of, we have your money now, thank you and goodbye. It was that attituite that really got my back up.

Thanks for the info on the dial rattle too. I have seen other posts from people who have had their dash replaced under warranty for the same thing so I will have Lex look at it next time it is in.

Also thanks to Bevrock for the gearbox info. Hopefully this can be sorted too. Not that it is a major thing but it is annoying and makes my spine tingle every time the gears crunch.

Awesome find Jamboo. Thank you. I have filled out the update on there now. Good luck with your pursuit of the RS4. What a motor..... Pity it's supplied by Audi. :(

I'm really looking forward to the ISF. It looks on paper to be awesome. I wonder how it will drive. Has anybody got any idea of the fuel consumption of it as it looks as though any one buyting it will need to have access to an oil well?

Audi is haunting me again as ISF is FSI backwards. :(

[Rob]

i spent a few months looking at RS4's (old model) but its hard to find a decent one ( at the moment there are 247 for sale here) unless you want to spend big bucks....... if anyone is looking to buy a RS4 and you are in the UK then look at the RS owners club for info and car sales. And dont be put off with stories of bending wheels - audi will replace the wheels free of charge for upto 10years past the purchase date.

[Colm]

Dayglow,

I find your post very interesting as I have almost the exact same issues with my manual IS250.

1. When I accelerate hard in 1st then 2nd then 3rd and then try to drop it into 6th the gears crunch. The same happens in 4th too. However, if I try to put in into 4th or 5th from 3rd the gearbox wont let me until the revs have dropped. It's only 6th that lets me 'try' to drop it stright in. Is this normal?

When I accelerate hard in 2nd or 3rd (up say past 5000rpm) and I've now reached the speed I'm happy to cruise at, if I put it straight into 6th, I get gear crunching. It doesn't happen if I put it from 2/3 into 5th, then into sixth.

While I could (grudginly) accept that I should do this (even though every other car I have driven had no problem with such activity), that is not the only time this happens. It also happens if driving at (illegal) speed in 5th gear...so the the revs are high in 5th, then changing straight from 5th to 6th at high revs gives the same grinding sound. Not easy to show to a dealer, or for them to test....we don't want to lose our licences....but it would appear to be the exact same problem.

I took it back to Lexus and they told me that they had a fix for it. The fix made no difference whatsoever. It's going in for service next week, and I've asked them to look at it again.

2. When I press start and the speedo and rev dials whizz around I now get a rattling sound from the dash like they are loose, although I doubt it's the needles themselves. I'm not sure even if that noise has been there all along and I have just never noticed it.

I THINK this is the same problem as I have. Do you mean that the sound happens as the needles move around, or does it continue when the needs are steady (after whizzing around)? In my case when rpm exceeds 5000rpm or so (exact value changes with each gear), I start to get a rattling/vibration. It stays present until the revs drop back again.

I asked Lexus to fix this along with a number of ther rattles. In fairness they 90% solved the other rattles, but this one remains the exact same.

Colm

[Steve ( West Mids )]

I got the noise when you start button when I first had my car, I later put it down ( maybe ) to holding the button too long. Don't know whether it was but it hasn't done it since the first few weeks.

[Dayglows]

Just had my 20,000 service today and had Lex have a look at the issues. The car has to go back for 2 days to investigate the gearbox issue properly and unfortunately the dash has to come out again... Eeeeekkkkk..... to get the fix implemented for the drivers side air vent vibration which aparently Lexus now have a fix for.

The vibrating seat belt adjuster by the drivers ear is also being replaced as this vibration drives me nuts too.

The mechanic is not sure what the needle rattles are but is still looking at it. I too thought is was because I kept my finger on the button for too ong but the noise has got worse. The foot rest next to the cluth had also broken and this needs to be reorderd.

I have to say having the dash out again makes me really nervous. I hope more rattles aren't introduced when it comes back. Please no........

[Dayglows]

Well my Lex has gone back into Lexus to have the issues I posted above investigated. Another issues that cropped up last weekend was that I noticed a crease in the fabric of the drivers side windscreen pillar. Upon further investigation I noticed that the dashboard had come loose AGAIN....... It rocked up and down when I pushed it. This is the same issue that I had a year ago when Lexus GB took the car away for 3 months to fix it. So every time I went over a bump the dashboard would bounce, but I didn't hear any noise because Lexus GB presumably put lots of padding in the dash when they fixed it to stop the noise. But you can see where it has been bouncing up and down as it is rubbing on the pillar fabric. The car went to Lex on Wednesday and they said that it would be back on Saturday. After previous experience I jokingly said that I bet it isn't. Funnily enough, I get the call to say that Lex will need it for 5 days to investigate why the dash has come loose again. Weird...... Friday afternon car or what?

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Mine has had the dash out job.

I originally didn't want to go down that route, as you say, 'cos it might introduce new rarttles. So far it looks as though it could have backfired, and the centre console by the knee is starting to creak, ad the main rattle returned yesterday again. I haven't told my wife yet. She'll be fuming and will probably march me down to the nearest BMW garage!!

Bad news or what?

...they probably made 2 cars that Friday, mine and yours ....

I don't want to change my car, but might be forced to now...

[leddy]

On another note, I bought my wife a Brand New A3 sportback with the DVD based Sat Nav. When we drove the car home we realised that our roadname was spelt incorrectly on the SatNav system. So every time we get in the car we can see our roadname displayed incorrectly which is slightly embarassing when we have passengers. .

Hi Guys just for quick info I'm affraid this has happened with my Lexus IS22D Se-l Sat nav it also spelt the name of our road wrong and does not even accept our postcode (which was highly embaressing for the saleman who was showing me the system before i bought it So no browine point for the makers of our Sat Nav System either

Cheers Leddy

[Dayglows]

Mine has had the dash out job.

I originally didn't want to go down that route, as you say, 'cos it might introduce new rarttles. So far it looks as though it could have backfired, and the centre console by the knee is starting to creak, ad the main rattle returned yesterday again. I haven't told my wife yet. She'll be fuming and will probably march me down to the nearest BMW garage!!

Bad news or what?

...they probably made 2 cars that Friday, mine and yours ....

I don't want to change my car, but might be forced to now...

Maybe the robots were on the blink that Friday afternoon or the quality inspectors were a bit sloshed on Saki whilst they were celebrating the few few cars off the production line. Wife already dragged me off to the Mercedes garage but I was surprised at how small the boot was on the new C Class and CLS. No benefit in changing really. But to be honest, I have really enjoyed my Lex over the last few months. Over Christmas I managed to squeeze an awful lot of stuff into the boot which really surprised me. Like you Jam, if I changed for another Lex with would have to be a Hybrid but looking at the boot on the GS that wont be an option but I must admit, I do like the 400h. :)

[Dayglows]

On another note, I bought my wife a Brand New A3 sportback with the DVD based Sat Nav. When we drove the car home we realised that our roadname was spelt incorrectly on the SatNav system. So every time we get in the car we can see our roadname displayed incorrectly which is slightly embarassing when we have passengers.

Hi Guys just for quick info I'm affraid this has happened with my Lexus IS22D Se-l Sat nav it also spelt the name of our road wrong and does not even accept our postcode (which was highly embaressing for the saleman who was showing me the system before i bought it So no browine point for the makers of our Sat Nav System either

Cheers Leddy

Nearly the same thing happened to me LED, but it was when the salesman asked to confirm my address when they were pre programming the satnav before I picked the car up that they couldn't find my road because the new estate I live on wasn't mapped. Every time I get in my car at home and I am using the SatNav I start off in the middle of a field so the satnav struggles to get time and distance figures for the journey until I join a road that is on the map. I have noticed that on the new 07 mapping in the loan car that my road is now on it. Can I get a free upgrade please Lex? :D

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Mine has had the dash out job.

I originally didn't want to go down that route, as you say, 'cos it might introduce new rarttles. So far it looks as though it could have backfired, and the centre console by the knee is starting to creak, ad the main rattle returned yesterday again. I haven't told my wife yet. She'll be fuming and will probably march me down to the nearest BMW garage!!

Bad news or what?

...they probably made 2 cars that Friday, mine and yours ....

I don't want to change my car, but might be forced to now...

Maybe the robots were on the blink that Friday afternoon or the quality inspectors were a bit sloshed on Saki whilst they were celebrating the few few cars off the production line. Wife already dragged me off to the Mercedes garage but I was surprised at how small the boot was on the new C Class and CLS. No benefit in changing really. But to be honest, I have really enjoyed my Lex over the last few months. Over Christmas I managed to squeeze an awful lot of stuff into the boot which really surprised me. Like you Jam, if I changed for another Lex with would have to be a Hybrid but looking at the boot on the GS that wont be an option but I must admit, I do like the 400h. :)

The RX is about the only one which seems well made - even the LS460 has a creaky satnav surround - which is really surprising...and immediately put me off...I really would top meself if I'd spent £70+k and a car squeaked rattled and groaned...

The GS has an older looking nav screen surround, which has less "components" of silver plastic and creaks a lot less. But the boot on the Hyb is tiny....I couldn't justify spending that sort of cash and wonder where the shopping is gonna go! The standard ones are OK, very nicely prportioned, but I actually think a darker side oponent is better looking...

Overall the Lexus is still fantastic VFM, but these little quality issues do spoil it some...

Maybe we're being too picky, but they have set them selves up in "discovery of perfection" which used to be "pursuit of perfection" so we're all asking the questions...

PS - in the meatime I am resisting going elsewhere - I haven't the cash at the mo, though getting a new car is tempting again (the fire burns), especially if you look at what's just happened to stocks and shares/FTSE today (and world markets)!! November could be a quiet month for car sales, and a good time to buy... ;)

[Dayglows]

Went to Lex this morning to change over the loan car. I have now been told that the delay is due to me having another new dashboard (this is the third dash I have had in the car) and it also needs a new instrument cluster as the dials rattle when they go around when the car starts up. Along with the seat belt holder being replaced and the foot rest which aparently had split the last time the dash was replaced I'm going to have a nearly new car back by the looks of it. Fingers crossed I don't get any free rattles and squeaks.

Hopefully I should get it back by the end of this week.

[Neo 220d]

Hey Jamboo that creaking by your knee could be the leather gearstick surround stick your fingers in the leather between gearstick and surround when driving mine drove me nuts because the leather rubs together. fixed it by using meguirs nxt intereor protectant. stops the leather rubbing together completely and also makes your plastics shiny as an added bonus

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Hey Jamboo that creaking by your knee could be the leather gearstick surround stick your fingers in the leather between gearstick and surround when driving mine drove me nuts because the leather rubs together. fixed it by using meguirs nxt intereor protectant. stops the leather rubbing together completely and also makes your plastics shiny as an added bonus

No mate - this is defo the whole console!! It even moves and flexes a little which is really worrying. I'll now have to book it in again for them to look at it. It's all getting too much. It started after the dash out jobby - this'll be the 7th Rattle visit!

My patience is running so thin! I now want shot of this car me thinks...munny is a bit tight...and it'll mean that I can't get the RS4 that I want, so 'm gonna have to stick this one out for 2-3 few years yet!

[Curtisp]

Hey Jamboo that creaking by your knee could be the leather gearstick surround stick your fingers in the leather between gearstick and surround when driving mine drove me nuts because the leather rubs together. fixed it by using meguirs nxt intereor protectant. stops the leather rubbing together completely and also makes your plastics shiny as an added bonus

No mate - this is defo the whole console!! It even moves and flexes a little which is really worrying. I'll now have to book it in again for them to look at it. It's all getting too much. It started after the dash out jobby - this'll be the 7th Rattle visit!

My patience is running so thin! I now want shot of this car me thinks...munny is a bit tight...and it'll mean that I can't get the RS4 that I want, so 'm gonna have to stick this one out for 2-3 few years yet!

Having the dash out will always run the risk of additional squeaks and rattles forming when replacing the dash. I've had mine out 4 times now in 6 visits and yes it is a pain and does drive you nuts. Currently it's running fine, with the odd rattle here and there when the weather changes, which is quite often over the last couple of months. But the customer services has been impeccable.

What has prompted me to reply is that I went sailing with a few colleagues and we got talking about cars and the problems each were encountering and it made most of the rants regarding the Lex seem insignificant.

One had a Merc CLK350 which totally shut down when he was travelling through France, had to fly back to the UK from Lyon and then had the car transported back days later. Was of the road for 6 weeks. When he got it back the CD and air con was not working, still waiting for parts. To cut a long story short, asked for his money back and now has a Volvo C70.

Another had a new Audi A8, after 3 months the sat nav stopped working and the glove box rattled. They fixed the sat Nav, then days after getting it back the air con and electric seats packed up. He said it was of the road for 3 weeks with an A4 for a courtesy car, which also broke down during that period. Had enough, got his money back and got an LS460.

Best of all was the Porsche Boxter whose gear leaver came away in my colleagues hand while travelling down the motorway doing 80mph. He said he was going from 5th to 6th and feels he was lucky to be alive and in one peace after the panic set in! Drives his wifes MX5, won't touch the Porsche.

At least it would appear our Lexies still get us from A to B reliabily with, on the odd occassion a rattle or two.

I think all of the prestige marques suffer from similar issues experienced on this forum and in many cases far worst. It may be they don't build them like they used to (remember Mercedes, how the mighty fall), and building to a cost instead of a standard is no longer economically viable!

But if Lexus are in the pursuit of perfection, then it is the very highest standards they should be aiming for!

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Curtisp, couldn't agree more.

We've had loads of new cars over the years, and this is actually the worst by some stretch as far as warranty vists is concerned- needing almost as many warranty visits as my last 4 in total. That's a shade worrying - when you consider one was a Pug! However, these are all almost exclusively rattles type minor things.

But it is true - maybe I was very lucky with the prestige cars I've had previously. All were great - the Audi the best. But then I too hear of Audi's, Mercs and BMW all falling apart and breaking down. The Cust Sat at Lexus is actually the best I've had from a dealer, albeit after a shaky start. It is excellent - very focused and they atually listen to what you're saying!! That's quite novel in the car industry!

You're right of course - in the grand scheme these rattles, whilst annoying, can be lived with as they are intermittent.

Mine has now stopped rattling and creaking completely - the weather's been cooler over the last 2 days and that seems to have made a difference. I'm gonna let the components "settle", and see where we are in a few weeks.

I know one or 2 will disagree with this - especially those that have had terrible 5th injector problems, with cars constantly going into Limp home mode etc, but they are in the minority and deep down I am happier. This is how I now see it 18 months in:

Fuel economy has increased leaps an bounds - the dealers and Lexus were right - "give it 10,000 miles" we were told

Engineering quality - gear change, mechanicals etc seem top notch

Ride/Handling - excellent

Value For Money - Excellent VFM - better than any other exec on the planet

Cust Sat - could have done much better at the start for me - but has improved leaps and bounds. I think they were inundated with enquiries and target hitting, but have now recovered

Gearing - feels much better now - may be I'm more used to it - however feels fine. 6th not really an issue...

All they need to sort out (other than rattles on some) are the running costs of this, the baby Lexus - I think they need to reduce the costs by extending the servicing. Some like frequent changes, well let them do it - but this car willl cost me double over the germans to service in 4 years. Mid you, you are probably still better off - when you consider what a 3 series is worth in 3 years, or even the A4...if you'd spent a packet on extras you wouldn't see any of it back....so the Lex has got to be cheaper over time overall...

And the paint....Oooohhh! Something needs to be done there...mine is fetled and cared for like a baby - always garaged and kept clean using 2 bucket cleaning, new Chamois or very clean MF cloths - yet still it is seeing new scratches all the time...

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Having discussed this at home and having slept on it, I feel brighter!! sinceSunday evening - all rattles seem to have gone...cooler temperature makes it OK...When it happens it makes you so mad!! At the end of the day - it's only a car and can be fixed.

Think of the England Football team, that can't be fixed! Bring on the qualifiers...

[Barry Lavin]

Having discussed this at home and having slept on it, I feel brighter!! sinceSunday evening - all rattles seem to have gone...cooler temperature makes it OK...When it happens it makes you so mad!! At the end of the day - it's only a car and can be fixed.

Think of the England Football team, that can't be fixed! Bring on the qualifiers...

Going back to what Curtisp said about building to a standard rather than a price, its funny but I am sure that is what the Lexus sales rep said to me about Lexus when he was selling me on them. He said that all the other manufacturers manufactured to a price while Lexus made the car and then put a price on it. Was anyone else given this spiel?

Going back to the paint issue Jamboo is correct in thinking that the paint/clear topcoat is too soft as against other manufacturers. I don't know why unless it is because someones nephew works for the paint company or something because there is no reason behind it. It is quite possible to make a water based topcoat every bit as hard as a solvent based one. The only downside of WB topcoats is that in hot weather, some of them turn thermoplastic and soften slightly, however as our paint is soft all year round I don't think that is the problem. Yes you guessed it I am in the paint business and on the other thread long ago when we were discussing the paint and I asked the Lexus guy to give us his comments about the paint. I was only having a chuckle as to how big a hole he was going to dig for himself.

In short, what we seem to have are Luxury cars with rattly engines (diesel) crap paint and wobbly rear view mirrors that rattle a bit inside as well. Not too bad really is it.

[Scarlet Pimpernell]

Having discussed this at home and having slept on it, I feel brighter!! sinceSunday evening - all rattles seem to have gone...cooler temperature makes it OK...When it happens it makes you so mad!! At the end of the day - it's only a car and can be fixed.

Think of the England Football team, that can't be fixed! Bring on the qualifiers...

Going back to what Curtisp said about building to a standard rather than a price, its funny but I am sure that is what the Lexus sales rep said to me about Lexus when he was selling me on them. He said that all the other manufacturers manufactured to a price while Lexus made the car and then put a price on it. Was anyone else given this spiel?

Going back to the paint issue Jamboo is correct in thinking that the paint/clear topcoat is too soft as against other manufacturers. I don't know why unless it is because someones nephew works for the paint company or something because there is no reason behind it. It is quite possible to make a water based topcoat every bit as hard as a solvent based one. The only downside of WB topcoats is that in hot weather, some of them turn thermoplastic and soften slightly, however as our paint is soft all year round I don't think that is the problem. Yes you guessed it I am in the paint business and on the other thread long ago when we were discussing the paint and I asked the Lexus guy to give us his comments about the paint. I was only having a chuckle as to how big a hole he was going to dig for himself.

In short, what we seem to have are Luxury cars with rattly engines (diesel) crap paint and wobbly rear view mirrors that rattle a bit inside as well. Not too bad really is it.

That's about the size of it

It's not too bad...could be worse, although "Building to standard" - the standard will be governed by the budget set If you want gold knockers (on your door) for 50p you may struggle and end up with brass ones