Tax On Gas Guzzlers

[robroy]

Hi Guys,

I am sure eveyone reading the Forum will be as concerned a I am on the above subject.. It is now fairly obvious , all political parties are out to get us once again by the wallet ..

Could we have some comments please, in particular from our friends who have had LPG systems fitted on the folowing. :- When does a Gas Guzzler become a non Gas Guzzler ?

If we have an LPG installation fitted our cars become (from mpg figures) in line with a normal small family car..

If unfortunately you live in Richmond on Thames does this mean we would not have to pay the higher rate of Parking Charges ? If (following the next election I presume) our Road Tax increases to the figgure mentioned of £1800 pa. Are we exempt from paying this increase if our cars are fitted with LPG ?

Are other members as confused as I am between 'Gas Guzzlers (which mean low mpg figures) and damage to the environment due to high emissions . Our other car is a BMW 330D. This car is of course fitted with a catalic converter and does 43/45 mpg on a run. My next door neighbour's old Vauxhall belches out filth and probably does half my mpg. Who's the biggest polluter ? Who should pay more in tax ?

Could any LPG members confirm for me please the position with the Ken Livingstone Tax on entering Central London with their cars.

Regards Roy

[T7RY B]

Vehicles converted to LPG or other alternative fuels. electric etc. are exempt from the congestion charge. You have to register the vehicle with proof that it has been converted.

Article from .Road traffic technology.com

EXEMPTIONS TO CONGESTION CHARGES

There are several groups of users and vehicles that are exempt from the central London Congestion Charging scheme. These include disabled drivers, licensed taxis, minicabs and public service vehicles, motorbikes, mopeds and scooters and emergency service vehicles. Also, residents of the congestion charging zone pay only 10% of the charge and cars that are diverted into the zone will not be charged so long as they do not deviate from the diversion. In addition to this, 'green' cars using alternative fuels (gas, electric, fuel cells and bi/dual fuel vehicles) are exempt from the charge.

[Rillo]

The fact you have LPG conversion is of no concern to these people. This green stuff is is nothing more than the old fashioned 70s class war by another name and an exuse to tax you because you won't complain and will pay up. Richmond council know that hiking parking charges for "unpopular and gas guzzling" cars will make them a mint.

After 4x4s it will be something else like MPVs, car owners who also own fast motorbikes, big estate cars, tax on holiday homes etc etc etc. You can rest assured that they won't be targetting dole scroungers who drive smokey old bangers.

So I would assume if enough people go LPG or hybrid that Comrade Ken will remove the exemption for that too....

[ROYT]

Another try on that they hope we will all be daft enough to fall for, along with paying to park outside your own home, I thought we paid road tax ........

The number of vehicles delivering children to school etc., would drop by 90% if parents felt safe to let them go alone. If they hanged a few murderers and castrated a few rapists maybe these people would stop to think before killing and raping, making the streets safer.

They are even escaping when they have been caught, the whole system is a shambles.

Rest assured some failed politian here or in Europe [another gravy train] will be thinking of more ways to

rob you after this, using global warming as an excuse.

If we used less petrol, less electricity etc., they would increase the price to compensate.

If LPG raced ahead watch the price go up.

I'm waiting to see them try this lot on with the Chinese when their economy has eveyone buying cars etc.

They are sure to refrain from buying cars, flying on holidays etc.

I think there is a few more of them than us in the UK, what price global warming then?

If they want us out of cars, make public transport free, after all they've robbed us with fuel tax, road tax etc. long enough, they can afford it.

As a matter of interest, if you have to pay to park outside your own home, will the charges be deducted from your road tax or added on. [No prize for a correct guess]

Anyway don't get me started.......!

[Chris Skelton]

Simple fact.

There is an enormous tax on fuel.

If you have a 'gas guzzler'....the more fuel you use, the more tax you'll be paying!

So you're ALREADY paying for your road use.

Hitting easy targets is just cheap politics, like keeping Pensions down......

It's the same as trying to tax 'Road use' with complex schemes about tracking EVERY CAR and charging! The same logic applies. The more miles you drive, the more petrol, ergo the more tax you're paying!

There's even no point in having CAR TAX! Takes a huge amount of people to administer the concept.And the concept of 'the user pays' would have worked.The more you drive, etc......

They WERE going to scrap Car tax about 10(?) years back, but it would have poleaxed Cardiff! So they didn't!

Revolving number plates?

[robroy]

Simple fact.

There is an enormous tax on fuel.

If you have a 'gas guzzler'....the more fuel you use, the more tax you'll be paying!

So you're ALREADY paying for your road use.

Hitting easy targets is just cheap politics, like keeping Pensions down......

It's the same as trying to tax 'Road use' with complex schemes about tracking EVERY CAR and charging! The same logic applies. The more miles you drive, the more petrol, ergo the more tax you're paying!

There's even no point in having CAR TAX! Takes a huge amount of people to administer the concept.And the concept of 'the user pays' would have worked.The more you drive, etc......

They WERE going to scrap Car tax about 10(?) years back, but it would have poleaxed Cardiff! So they didn't!

Revolving number plates?

I agree with all the comments made... We will get punished regardless....

What are the views on us paying £1800 pa Road Tax. ? If Comrade Livingstone wavers the congestion charge for LPG vehicles, will our RX300's fitted with LPG still have to pay the full wack or will they pay the normal cost.. What are your views ? ( I think I know the answer but would welcome other RX owners views)

Roy

[Bazza]

The number of vehicles delivering children to school etc., would drop by 90% if parents felt safe to let them go alone. If they hanged a few murderers and castrated a few rapists maybe these people would stop to think before killing and raping, making the streets safer.

i really dont think the streets are that unsafe

i do believe we have a lot of lazy parents though ;)

[Chris Skelton]

The number of vehicles delivering children to school etc., would drop by 90% if parents felt safe to let them go alone. If they hanged a few murderers and castrated a few rapists maybe these people would stop to think before killing and raping, making the streets safer.

i really dont think the streets are that unsafe

i do believe we have a lot of lazy parents though ;)

Totally agree!

And the 'hang 'em high' concept is rather 'Daily Mail' isn't it?

We're living in civilisations' highest point, despite such knee jerk reactions! We're wealthier, healthier, but still we get people awash with unjustified fears like this, fed by sensationist media feeding on that paranoia! There will always be the bad side of life, balancing out the good. But why let it rule your life?MY town isn't awash with loonies running amok, (unlike Iraq?) Doubt if anyone elses is either.

It's the FEAR that gets you, not the .000001%of 'rapists and murderers'¬!

[ROYT]

Depends on what you've got used to, when I was a young man, murder was front page news.

Now it's about 3 killings a day and the sports results come first.

Beating people to death for questioning there loutish behavour is commonplace and the growing gun carrying culture does not fill me with confidence.

Would you feel safe approaching a gang of half drunk yobs at midnight?

If six of 'em are kicking your Lexus what are you going to do about it?

If the goverment were serious about pollution they could abolish road tax and put the tax on fuel.

Then, the most polluter pays most........but as usual, greed prevails, tax them on fuel and to drive on the

roads, to park on the roads and any permutation they can come up with.

If they get away with this there will be more to follow.....

One Jet flying accross the Atlantic carries enough fuel to keep me mobile for months, I can't see them putting up landing and fuel fees to stop MP's etc flying about.

[winnie]

I dont think it will ever happen.......and if it does, the Gt british gas guzzling (motoring) community wont as usual do anything about it. Look at what happened to the fuel increase some protested,but its the majority that counts and the increases went ahead anyway!!...thats the trouble with people these days,they are all for themselves and adopt a "im allright jack" attitude.

[IanCornwall]

OK here comes Mr Rant

What a load of rubbish the tax on parking is, that is penalising people for not driving anywhere, a parked car causes exactly zero pollution, unless its that really annoying VW parked in my road which is doing an impersonation of an oil slick

Scrap car road fund licence, scrap congestion charges, scrap toll roads, scrap all non driving taxes

Then stick a lovely big dollop on the fuel, if you "choose" to drive a really small economical car you will save loads, if you "choose" to drive a bigger car then it will cost you a load, how simple is that ?

surprisingly enough, if you add up the road fund licences and all of the rest of the stealth taxes and divide that by the amount of road fuel actaully burnt in the UK, it would add less than 4p to a litre

and be so easy to collect it would save millions of £££ in the process, and there would be zero car tax dodgers

Now make the increase 8 pence a litre extra and the questions are "would 8 pence extra cost on a litre of fuel make you think twice about taking your car out, and get a bus" ? "would it make you run out and buy a small car" ?

Now onto electric cars, would it surprise you that the largest amount of greenhouse gasses pollution in the UK is caused by electricity generation, unless it is by Nuclear energy whcich causes zero pollution yet Greenpeace hate it

Would it surprise you as well that to create and transmit enough electricity to power a car for the same distance as petrol actually creates more greenhouse gasses than any petrol or diesel engine going the same distance

Would it surprise you that for 45 years we have had Hydrogen cell motors that create sod all pollution, yet governments all over the world won't invest in it, because it would mean the end of the oil industry and the OPEC countries means to ransom the world

[jbanfie]

You can hear them all saying it, and this is why its rubbish, electric cars, guess where the power comes from - err, those big coal fired power stations - sadly the same would be true of hydrogen fueled cars - hydrogen is made from water by using lots of electricity - which comes from burning coal or gas and about 20% nuclear in this country (respect the French here 80% nuke).

So all this talk of electric or hydrogen is an efficiency question thats all - how efficient is it to burn stuff and generate electricity, then pump it into a car either into a Battery or as hydrogen? Compare this with burning stuff in a car - petrol/diesel? What gets me is that if you do all the maths, those little electric cars probably cause more green house gases than by RX400 because the process is so inefficient.

You don't get anywhere with any of this until you go build a load of nuclear reactors - and hopefully one day we'll crack fusion. Of course solar wind, wind and wave power will solve about 2% of the problem, so let's destroy all our countryside with distastefull structures.

So slowly we've worked out that Labour are a stealth tax machine - now we can see that the Liberals (Richmond) are showing there true colours.

Only one answer, and I think just maybe if all those Liberal voters work it out - we might have a result and David may attempt to put the British sense of fair play back in.

That's my biggest gripe - it's all knee jerk reactions and half truth, not thought through!

Is it me?

Though I think I'm good company here!

Jon

[IanCornwall]

Hi there jb

of course your right, electricity comes from burning fossil fuels and electric cars are more polluting than diesel or petrol, that is until we have the nerve to actually get more Nuclear generators online and scrap burning oil and gas

The biggest pollutant in the country is burning gas to make electricity, nuclear would stop the drain on gas reserves, although now we have linked to the Norwegian fields we actually have more gas than we can use

Here is a little quiz

How much hydro electricity generated in the country is actually green electricity

How long does an average wind generator have to generate non stop before its output of green electricity exceeds the amount of dirty energy it took to make it

What did the Amaco Cadiz hit that caused the biggest oil slick in the world

[jbanfie]

Hi Ian,

This is the best thread on here for a long time.

I trust the Amoco Cadiz thing hit a wind turbine in an estury or something?

Keen to know the answers to the other two teasers!

Cheers

Jon

[MacRS200]

I trust the Amoco Cadiz thing hit a wind turbine in an estury or something?

No it hit France actually and it is not the world's biggest oil spill that was in Mexico in 1980 when a well blew up and the biggest spill from a tanker, to date, was the Castillo De Belver in 1983.

How much hydro electricity generated in the country is actually green electricity

Not a lot as they are mostly "pump storage" schemes

How long does an average wind generator have to generate non stop before its output of green electricity exceeds the amount of dirty energy it took to make it

At a guess a lot longer that the life of the generator.

[IanCornwall]

Some interesting answers

And some quite close ones, but no cigar yet

The answers are on tomorrow

[Greywolf]

Hi All on the Gas Guzzlers Topic,

I would just like to add my five penny worth...

Those politicians in power should get their own in order before using an easy option to raise revenue, I am in a position to know that more energy is wasted in Government and Local Council properties than in the majority of private properties....ask this question to your local council " Why do you not provide efficient buildings and heating systems in schools, civic buildings and all government buildings??" If not why not Tax them!!

"Why do they not sort out the infrastructure radically to reduce congestion, accidents, deaths, lost hours to the economy, fuel wastage etc.etc??"

"Why do we have to drive modern vehicles on roads that were designed 50-100 years ago??!!"

Also a point to ponder for every £ the government spends they probably get back at least 75p. in the various forms of taxation....think about it, as the money pays the contractors, who buy the materials and pay wages, and pay tax on the profits, the wages are spent on food and products with VAT, for the people to but cars and fuel and pay taxes for fuel and even parking when you are not using the vehicle!!!

So there is no excuse for the government not to invest on a whole new infrastructure!!

The more I think about it the more I realise that what we are all to blame for not electing people who can do the job, or maybe it is the politicians that have got the world in the mess it is in.

That's it I'm off to a desert island somewhere 'cos the worlds gone mad!!

All the Best,

Greywolf.

[IanCornwall]

Despite having large (ish) dams and plenty of water none of the hydro produced electricity in the UK is GREEN

What happens is that during the day (when electricity is more expensive) the turbines run and produce electricity

At night the turbines are reversed and become fed from the national grid dirty power and pump the water back up to the top for the next day

The reason for this is that electricity during the day can be sold for example for 8 pence a unit and at night the electricity can be bought for 3 pence, even allowing for the extra effort pumping the water upwards it only costs in electricity twice the amount of kWh to move it making the real cost 6 pence

every unit of electricity therefore makes a nice easy 2 pence profit for the operator, and twice the pollution of using dirty stuff in the first place, making hydro electricity in the UK twice as dirty as oil or gas

Small dams with hydro power stations use the electricity to power the pumps to move the water from the dam into the water network to the filter works, but this is a very small amount and is never actually connected to the grid, the cables you see at these stations are for bringing extra electricity to the pumps when the water level is low, not for supplying the grid

2. if a wind generator ran flat out for 12 years it would have generated the electricity that it took to make it (machining, production, smelting ores etc) as a wind generator only runs for about a third of the time due to wind (or lack of it) then it would take 36 years to pay back the electricity and become green, as none of the wind turbines are this old yet they are still costing more in pollution than it has saved

3. The Amaco Cadiz ran ashore because of 2 things, It lost its rudder due to damage by hitting a semi submerged object, (and a really big argument with the French over salvage rights), but what smashed the rudder ?? just offshore the French were experimenting with wave turbine generators and one of these broke its mooring and floated off, the tide and swell would have taken it right into the path of the shipping lanes, examination of the rudder later showed that it had hit something painted red and from the damage approximately circular and 12 foot in diameter

You make up your own minds but the wave generators were red and 4 metres diameter

[Greywolf]

Hi Guys,

Sounds like we ought to start a new political party here, what about the GOMIC party, Grumpy Old Men In Cars (I speak for myself of course), and let's have a revolution!!

Or I suppose we just have to put up with what they come up with, do you think any of the parties will have any common sense??

This thread could go on forever!!

Regards,

Greywolf.

[winnie]

Or I suppose we just have to put up with what they come up with,

Regards,

Greywolf.

Thats exactly what will happen...sadly ;)

[peter026]

Having read this thread again, I see, that by the Lexus consensus of opinion, we are wholly agreed that we are now living in rip off Britain.

As for Nuclear power being completely green, that has not yet been proven, according to a nuclear physicist.

So called gas guzzlers: If the tax, as the government are rumored to be considering, raised to the figure mentioned, I am sure this would lead to more untaxed vehicles on the road.

I have a 4x4 I use for work and if the tax hikes up, then it stands to reason that I will pass on the increase to my clientele, along with other people who no doubt will do the same.

I noticed the difference, during the summer, when fuel prices were going through the roof, that events I had been covering in my official capacity, were, on average down on competitors by about a third.

If this exorbitant tax is applied, how many more competitors will drop out because they cannot afford to run their vehicle.

I do think that a fairer, and therefore a much better solution, would be to levy, to save argument, a 6p to 8p extra tax per litre, and thereafter, for it to rise with the annual rate of inflation. No escalator, as they are threatening to bring back, but just keep it simplistic

I'd better get off my soapbox, otherwise I'll be here all night, and then I'm bound to upset someone :D

[ROYT]

Shades of 'weapons of mass destruction' hype? All the radio and TV were full of this guys report of impending disaster if we don't all stop driving, having heat and light on etc .

Britain must lead the way here......why?...we're already leading the way with highest taxes and rip off prices on all fuel, VAT on everything you touch etc.

If the situation is so desperate why has the new runway at Heathrow not been cancelled in the interest of reduced pollution?

Politians , get real, how much difference do you think we can make based on the size of the UK, by not leaving our TV's on standby and having a greedy hike in road tax forced upon us.

I drive a large car 'cos I like it and pay too much for the privelidge already, most of the time it's parked on my drive not polluting anything!

Who says this guy is right anyway, we keep getting all these expert reports on things and most of the time it's all wrong..

Climate change is normal and has had different cycles throughout time, some effort to reduce overall pollution is necessary, but the first big volcano that erupts will cause a lot more climate change than driving

your car.

[IanCornwall]

What gets me is that we get the same old bull**** every time we turn on the telly or radio

We get told use energy saving lightbulbs

We get told don't leave the telly / video / cd / dvd player / computer on standby

We get told don't leave our mobile chargers plugged in when not charging the fones

We get told turn down the thermostat by 1 degree

We get told don't fly anywhere on holiday

So here is my plan

We blow up all the factories that make old fashioned light bulbs and the sale of them from now on so then the super bulbs are the only available ones, the sheer demand for super bulbs will bring the price down

All of the stuff that is made with standby settings is outlawed from being sold, they all from now on have a simple on and off switch, ok that means that us fat gits have to walk 2 yards to turn the damn things on but thats ok

All new fone charges have an off setting when they are unplugged from the fone, its really easy to do, and as most fones will be changed in the next 2 years for even lighter or trendier versions that we can speak to Venus on

All new and exisiting thermostats will have 1 setting, nice and warm, so they cant be turned up that relaly hot extra 1 degree

We all drive to Spain and Greece and to make it worthwhile we can all close our hyper polluting factories and offices for an extra week to make an extra weeks holiday so we can get there and back

Then all the politicians can bugger off and leave our nice energy efficient cars alone

Oh and P.S. I went to the House of Commons a while back, every damn (non energy efficient) light was on, it was boiling hot, and there was almost no one in the place, shame they can't practice what they preach isn't it,,,,,,, and when was the last time mr fatty 2 jags thought mmmmmmm today I will take the little diesel ????? probably only when visiting a certain lady undercover, then she turned the lights out I bet

[Chris Skelton]

What gets me is that we get the same old bull**** every time we turn on the telly or radio

We get told use energy saving lightbulbs

We get told don't leave the telly / video / cd / dvd player / computer on standby

We get told don't leave our mobile chargers plugged in when not charging the fones

We get told turn down the thermostat by 1 degree

We get told don't fly anywhere on holiday

So here is my plan

We blow up all the factories that make old fashioned light bulbs and the sale of them from now on so then the super bulbs are the only available ones, the sheer demand for super bulbs will bring the price down

All of the stuff that is made with standby settings is outlawed from being sold, they all from now on have a simple on and off switch, ok that means that us fat gits have to walk 2 yards to turn the damn things on but thats ok

All new fone charges have an off setting when they are unplugged from the fone, its really easy to do, and as most fones will be changed in the next 2 years for even lighter or trendier versions that we can speak to Venus on

All new and exisiting thermostats will have 1 setting, nice and warm, so they cant be turned up that relaly hot extra 1 degree

We all drive to Spain and Greece and to make it worthwhile we can all close our hyper polluting factories and offices for an extra week to make an extra weeks holiday so we can get there and back

Then all the politicians can bugger off and leave our nice energy efficient cars alone

Oh and P.S. I went to the House of Commons a while back, every damn (non energy efficient) light was on, it was boiling hot, and there was almost no one in the place, shame they can't practice what they preach isn't it,,,,,,, and when was the last time mr fatty 2 jags thought mmmmmmm today I will take the little diesel ????? probably only when visiting a certain lady undercover, then she turned the lights out I bet

Point of order?

There arent ANY 'old' or any other kind...of light bulb factories in Britain at all, apparently. The last one closed several years ago. All imported!!

Polluters? Biggest are......HOUSES!! So I guess we'll all have to have our HOUSES rated for 'gas guzzling' soon? Now THERE'S a job for someone! Never mind TV Licence checkers. Knock on the door?

QUICK!!! Turn off all our Stand by stuff! It's the checkers!!

Ain't life fun!!??

(As for driving to Spain.....any time! I love it there! AND the drive down which I've done several times!) :D