Trader Bashing

tdiplc · September 28, 2006

The next time you are fitting you bigger injectors into a supercharged is200 with manifold mod, please let me know and steve and myself and the guy that does the mapping will attend :D

We have two cars here now. What time will you be here please? Regarding "the guy hat does the mapping", if you are referring to the Prolex "Techie", he is banned from our premises for reasons that some lOC'ers will be aware and that I cannot state in a public domain for contractual reasons.

The eggs, to see who gets it in the face you not herd the one '' egg on your face '' ?

I regard this statement as a threat. You are very welcome here but I can assure you that if I feel that my (or any TDi staff member) safety is compromosed by your actions, the resulant pre-emption will be unpleasant for you.

As for the wiring, when i come down, you will/can see that 99% of all the wiring that i have done to my car (dvd, defi, fog lights mod) ) has been done with solder :D

I notice that you did not address my question. To put it plainly for you; do you think it fair that an LOC member should pay good money for wiring like in the pictures I posted, and do you think that the company in question should be named?

Their you go again, My commercial motives :D I dont have any :D as you say, i work in a brewery. The only other income i get is from property rental.
Im not trying to sell anybody anything, ''YOU ARE'' i am only saying that you dont need the bigger injectors when you have you is200 supercharged with after market manifold, now i think that why im coming down, so you can show us that we do, is it not ?

I don't see how you can describe yourself as the "Top Northern Salesman" for Prolex, and arrive unsolicited (and apparantly unwanted) to meet and greet LOC members that arrive at Charlesworths, whilst pretending to be unbiased.

Some people seem to think that i have ago at all your new products, not true, is said you new manifold looks nice, it will, im sure give extra bhp. some of your services that you offer i Q, as i/anyone has the right to. As i have said to you B4, you must do some good work, or you would be out of work.
People come on here shouting about the good work you have just done for them, well good for them, payed you for a service you did it right, customer happy, all well.

But when you get things wrong, and people say something, the post is closed, 10% are given, thay have commercial motives and so on.

Of course you are entitled to an opinion, but it is not professional to air them in a public domain if you are affiliated in any way to a competitor. I am happy to say that we make very few mistakes but if we do make immediate and effective ammends. Sometimes (such as in a recent situation) we will refund money on a sympathetic basis even if we haven't done anything wrong.

Now when i 1st went to JAE 2004 and herd some members slagging you work off, i thought is it true or are thay making things up ? over the years most things that was said about you, by serveral members have come true over time.
The one thing that i have seen, that you say you dont do, is file numbers of injectors that you sell, but you do, dont now why ?

I have asked you several times before to provide me with names and details of your allegations. You have declined to do so on every occasion. There may well be someone or even a few people that are unhappy with our service, in which case I would to contact them to analyse the issues as feedback is integral to the growth of our business.

I really don't understand your point about fuel injector part numbers. Our supplier removes the number presumably to prevent us from discovering the source. That is completely understandable and is common practice. If the numbers were on the injectors when we received them, we would remove them to prevent people like you discovering our source.

Tony-Bones · September 28, 2006

Is this thread for real! Anoncment to all new members welcome to LOC :duh:

MacRS200 posted a valid thread enforcing what most members feel... and that's sick and tired of the 'Attacks' on tdi at every opportunity. gord you have vested interests in Prolex is it now your job to discredit tdi in an attempt to validate the position of Prolex? The constant attempts are crystal clear and display no credibility.

Mentioned was the need to make mistakes visible, i agree, if mistakes are made then the company in question needs to act, this everlasting thread is born on a issue with tdi, the error was realised and dealt with professionally, re-funded and appoligized, responsible or not! Constant exhumations of this topic discredit Prolex and your attempts to gain corporate credibility by attacking tdi i my opinion is foolish and deemed to failure.

For the benefit of the club i will not reply back to your response to this post. If needs be i can be contacted by all the usual routes.

Dave-Ellen · September 28, 2006

@ Mark as Nick the Greek said this is an amusing read but for the record with regard to this statement

"We have two cars here now. What time will you be here please? Regarding "the guy hat does the mapping", if you are referring to the Prolex "Techie", he is banned from our premises for reasons that some lOC'ers will be aware and that I cannot state in a public domain for contractual reasons."

I'd like to add that as well as contractual reasons which were , i believe enforced upon you by the Tribunal you lost, there are of course the laws of slander and libel to consider. You may also want to revisit some of your posts where you have made libelous statements on this subject in the past. These have all been passed on to the relevant bodies and you will be no doubt in receipt of a nice missive form a Solicitor in the next week or so.

Furthermore I'd like to confirm that any visit Gordon chooses to make to your workshop would have nothing whatsoever to do with Prolex as Gordon has and has never had anything whatsover to do with Prolex. His comments are made purely in fun and certainly seem to have wound you up.

I'd also say to you that your attempts to belittle Gordon do you no favours whatsover.

Moving back to the matter of trader wars I'd say I've learnt from previous exchanges between us that aside from winding us both up and providing amusement for a few people on LOC they achieve very little.

Hence my relaxed attitude to the Tdi manifold thread. Personally I'd have said you would have been better served with the picture of it,description of R&D process materials used and a dyno figure. The ensuing fracas would never have happened. I admire your choice of words in the original post BTW :winky: as well as being an astute businessman you are a wordsmith of some redoubt.

@ everyone else On customer base I'm not reliant,any longer, from LOC for business as Ellz suggested I may be. The last 2 weeks of orders (19) only 3 have been LOCers the rest coming from my website or eBay shop. Increasingly they are from abroad...again the last two weeks have seen packages go to Canada,Malta,Italy,Germay and Spain.

I do though appreciate the fact that without LOC Prolex-Uk would never have "taken off" hence my sponsorship (at considerable expense) of the TRACK ATTACK for the last two years....

Continunity · September 28, 2006

Same old same old. is this ever going to end?

Adie · September 28, 2006

I believe Neil had a point in starting this thread.....Point proven :winky:

tdiplc · September 28, 2006

"We have two cars here now. What time will you be here please? Regarding "the guy hat does the mapping", if you are referring to the Prolex "Techie", he is banned from our premises for reasons that some lOC'ers will be aware and that I cannot state in a public domain for contractual reasons."
I'd like to add that as well as contractual reasons which were , i believe enforced upon you by the Tribunal you lost, there are of course the laws of slander and libel to consider. You may also want to revisit some of your posts where you have made libelous statements on this subject in the past. These have all been passed on to the relevant bodies and you will be no doubt in receipt of a nice missive form a Solicitor in the next week or so.

Furthermore I'd like to confirm that any visit Gordon chooses to make to your workshop would have nothing whatsoever to do with Prolex as Gordon has and has never had anything whatsover to do with Prolex. His comments are made purely in fun and certainly seem to have wound you up.

I'd also say to you that your attempts to belittle Gordon do you no favours whatsover.

Moving back to the matter of trader wars I'd say I've learnt from previous exchanges between us that aside from winding us both up and providing amusement for a few people on LOC they achieve very little.

Dave, I am sympatheitc towards your situation as you need to rely on a 3rd party for your information.

As I told you before by PM, there was no tribunal for us to lose. To aportion some facts to your statement, I will state for the record that a certain emplyee of TDI was dismissed on 13 very serious allegations of Gross Misconduct which had been under covert investigation for a very long time.

The person involved initiated an Industrial Tribunals case against us. The claim was for £570. The cost for us to defend the claim would have been several thousand Pounds and would have implicated and inconvenienced the Independant Witnesses (1 of whome is a very important client), and would have dragged on for months so I took the commercial decision to pay the money to put closure to the matter. The case was not heard by a tribunal.

No contractual terms were enforced upon myself or TDI because there was no Tribunal. I agreed with the person concerned to not "publish any deratory or untrue statement". The terms of the agreement were validated by ACAS.

These are indesputable facts, and I am sorry if they are inconvenient to you.

I rather hope that I have not made any slanderous or libellous statements about you, and will glady offer an unreserved apology if I have that you can direct me towards.

There is no intention to "belittle Gord". In fact I think if you review the threads and posts you will find that quite the reverse is true.

You will recall that I offered you an olive branch a long time ago, which you chose to decline by continuing with your actions. Please let me know if and when you change your mind.

Dave-Ellen · September 28, 2006

I rather hope that I have not made any slanderous or libellous statements about you, and will glady offer an unreserved apology if I have that you can direct me towards.

Not to or about me old bean. If there had of been then I'm sure our Solicitors would have been on first name terms :winky:

I think my post was quite clear as to who I was referring to.

As ever you choose to present partial facts which is tiresome..........I think the fact that you "sacked" the ex-employee the day after he resigned perhaps puts a different light on your comments/version of events.

The comments you have made publically on LOC on this subject (your comments about the ex-employee) may place you in some difficulty in the near future . You may also want to reconsider your telephone manner when referring to your ex-employee as a thief to people who ring Tdi and ask for him :winky:

tdiplc · September 28, 2006

Not to or about me old bean. If there had of been then I'm sure our Solicitors would have been on first name terms :winky:

Yes, I have heard from various sources that you are litigeous.

As ever you choose to present partial facts which is tiresome..........I think the fact that you "sacked" the ex-employee the day after he resigned perhaps puts a different light on your comments/version of events.
The comments you have made publically on LOC on this subject (your comments about the ex-employee) may place you in some difficulty in the near future . You may also want to reconsider your telephone manner when referring to your ex-employee as a thief to people who ring Tdi and ask for him :winky:

Reliance on a 3rd party for information is not recommeded for credibility retention.

I am sure you will understand that I am unable to comment further on this, but if you would like to review our photographic and documentary evidence and listen to the recordings of the meeting, you are most welcome as I am permitted to reveal facts. At least you will be able to make up your own mind then.

baby_lexus · September 28, 2006

As Tony said earlier...can this now stop ? New users to this forum are getting a bad impression.

Bazza · September 28, 2006

As Tony said earlier...can this now stop ? New users to this forum are getting a bad impression.

i am sure you are right, it doesnt fair well for new users ;)

but ..my own personal thoughts are :

this underlying fued has been going on far too long

as much as one thread gets closed another opens

maybe once and for all it can be aired and then put to sleep

i think everyone knows what the original post was referring to

and everyone knew where it was going to be heading

i cant see where, if at all, it is contravening any terms and conditions

if everyone concerned has this chance to voice their opinions, thoughts and views, then the whole scenario can be boxed up and left to memories, with the underlying festations there are at the moment, a bad atmosphere is present and will remain

Ellz · September 28, 2006

but ..my own personal thoughts are :

this underlying fued has been going on far too long

as much as one thread gets closed another opens

maybe once and for all it can be aired and then put to sleep

i think everyone knows what the original post was referring to

and everyone knew where it was going to be heading

i cant see where, if at all, it is contravening any terms and conditions

if everyone concerned has this chance to voice their opinions, thoughts and views, then the whole scenario can be boxed up and left to memories, with the underlying festations there are at the moment, a bad atmosphere is present and will remain

So Barry is it gloves off then

Only joking guys keep it as friendly as possible

Mr Morse · September 29, 2006

Our supplier removes the number presumably to prevent us from discovering the source. That is completely understandable and is common practice.

Nonsense!

This is a complete pile of rubbish, as well you know! And you, as a trader have a responsibility to ensure that your supplier provides you with genuine, fit-for-puprose goods! In addition, this completely invalidates any warranty.

It's like going into Curry's to buy a washing machine......you pay for the product, it arrives at your house but it doesn't come with a serial number or manufacturer's papers?

Where do you buy your products? From the guy around the back of the pub with the dirty white Transit van?

I wonder what Trading Standards would make of your claims? You are on a very sticky wicket here.......

tdiplc · September 29, 2006

Our supplier removes the number presumably to prevent us from discovering the source. That is completely understandable and is common practice.

Nonsense!

This is a complete pile of rubbish, as well you know! And you, as a trader have a responsibility to ensure that your supplier provides you with genuine, fit-for-puprose goods! In addition, this completely invalidates any warranty.

It's like going into Curry's to buy a washing machine......you pay for the product, it arrives at your house but it doesn't come with a serial number or manufacturer's papers?

Where do you buy your products? From the guy around the back of the pub with the dirty white Transit van?

I wonder what Trading Standards would make of your claims? You are on a very sticky wicket here.......

You are of course entitled to your opinion but you are entirely wrong.

Many people and/or companies in this industry try to protect their intellectual property by avoiding public knowledge of their sources to delay their competitors catching up. It is part of the methodologies of maintaining a competitive edge.

I believe this practice is completely understandable and has been prevalent for decades.

Your point about being "fit for purpose" is irrelevant because if a product has a source code or part number removed, it does not affect it's capabaility of being "fit for purpose". There are trading laws in place to ensure that any products are indeed fit for purpose.

Your point about invalidating a warranty is also irrelevant firstly because the majority of aftermarket automotive products do not have any official warranty, and secondly because the legal responsibility of any warrantly claim lies with the person that sold the goods - not the manufacturer.

I am sorry but I am not prepared to divulge our sources to you. I hope you can understand that I have confidentiallity and commercial sensitivity issues to address, so I apologize for any disappointment.

legendswraith · September 29, 2006

Our supplier removes the number presumably to prevent us from discovering the source. That is completely understandable and is common practice.

Nonsense!

This is a complete pile of rubbish, as well you know! And you, as a trader have a responsibility to ensure that your supplier provides you with genuine, fit-for-puprose goods! In addition, this completely invalidates any warranty.

It's like going into Curry's to buy a washing machine......you pay for the product, it arrives at your house but it doesn't come with a serial number or manufacturer's papers?

Where do you buy your products? From the guy around the back of the pub with the dirty white Transit van?

I wonder what Trading Standards would make of your claims? You are on a very sticky wicket here.......

In this case then is it right to assume that by removing serial numbers then you take responsibility for returns?

Also depends if its electro chemical etched rather than vibro or stamped, removing an electro chem etch is easy enough without damaging the part. However if any part is being sold as a TDi part they can do whatever they want with it so long as it fits in with any running quality system. Problems only crop up when items are mis sold and are not fit for purpose.

Kazi · September 29, 2006

legal responsibility of any warrantly claim lies with the person that sold the goods - not the manufacturer.

Not strictly true. Its down to the stockist/seller to honour the warranty on behalf of the manufacture. I.e The stockist is responsable for arranging a replacement/repair on behalf of the customer with no expense incurred by the customer.

If a product has been fitted in-correctly, causing the product to malfunction then its a different matter, as this invalidates the most if not all manufactures terms of warranty.

Just my thoughts on Sales of goods act :D

tdiplc · September 29, 2006

In this case then is it right to assume that by removing serial numbers then you take responsibility for returns?

Yes, however in this instance Mike is refering to the uprated fuel injectors that we offer, which have the part numbers removed by our supplier before we receive them. Either way, there is no impact on the end user.

However if any part is being sold as a TDi part they can do whatever they want with it so long as it fits in with any running quality system. Problems only crop up when items are mis sold and are not fit for purpose.

Absolutely correct :)

winnie · September 29, 2006

I think the "Olive Branch" needs to be extended that little bit further.

Dave-Ellen · September 29, 2006

Anyone wants any injectors for the IS200 only needs to get uprated injectors for the Toyota MRS which are supplied by Power Enterprise (prob others as well) I believe (sold my last set a while ago) they are actually manufactured by the same company which makes the OEM injectors for the IS200. Think I sold them at £500 ish a set inc VAT and made a decent margin :)

They come with part numbers.........the only possible reason for removing part numbers by a supplier IMHO would be to hide the origins to inflate the price and protect your market share or indeed to claim they are their own.

Mr Morse · September 29, 2006

They come with part numbers.........the only possible reason for removing part numbers by a supplier IMHO would be to hide the origins to inflate the price and protect your market share or indeed to claim they are their own.

Do ANY of the parts which you supply come with the part numbers removed?

What would your view be if you were supplied with goods in such condition? Would you be prepared to accept liability if the part failed?

tdiplc · September 29, 2006

Anyone wants any injectors for the IS200 only needs to get uprated injectors for the Toyota MRS which are supplied by Power Enterprise (prob others as well)

That is interesting - thank you. I will evaluate this avenue as the injectors that we use are entirely different.

They come with part numbers.........the only possible reason for removing part numbers by a supplier IMHO would be to hide the origins to inflate the price and protect your market share

It is not unreasonable to expect a professional company to protect their intellectual property if they have done R&D etc to identify and test a component. The fact that our supplier removes part numbers is not unusual or unreasonable to me as it is common practice.

or indeed to claim they are their own.

I believe you refer to the Toyota injectors as "Prolex 550cc Injectors" not "Toyota 550cc injectors offered by Prolex"

here

Dave-Ellen · September 29, 2006

They come with part numbers.........the only possible reason for removing part numbers by a supplier IMHO would be to hide the origins to inflate the price and protect your market share or indeed to claim they are their own.

Do ANY of the parts which you supply come with the part numbers removed?

What would your view be if you were supplied with goods in such condition? Would you be prepared to accept liability if the part failed?

Short answer is no...

If i was supplied with productes where the part number had been present and was no longer present I would not acceot them

tdiplc · September 29, 2006

At Mike and Dave, it seems to me that it is the case that a Trader or Supplier makes a choice over what he thinks is in his best interests, and for a potential customer to make a decision on his prefered parts/service provider based on any information he can garner (which is normally based around capabilities and credibility rather than part numbers).

I believe that nobody is right or wrong, and that is is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Dave-Ellen · September 29, 2006

At Mike and Dave, it seems to me that it is the case that a Trader or Supplier makes a choice over what he thinks is in his best interests, and for a potential customer to make a decision on his prefered parts/service provider based on any information he can garner (which is normally based around capabilities and credibility rather than part numbers).
I believe that nobody is right or wrong, and that is is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

but how would that customer feel if he was being sold a product made out to be a traders own product...paying a premium price for said product ....when it was in fact a mass produced part available at a substantially cheaper price...........

Regardless of the whys & wherefores part numbers are there for a purpose and the majority of people would,if they knew they had been erased, take a sceptical view of said parts...........like buying a engine with no engine number.........car with no/amended VIN number

tdiplc · September 29, 2006

but how would that customer feel if he was being sold a product made out to be a traders own product...paying a premium price for said product ....when it was in fact a mass produced part available at a substantially cheaper price...........

The only Trader I know of that buys parts in and labels them as his own brand is you (as I pointed out in my second from last post).

Regardless of the whys & wherefores part numbers are there for a purpose and the majority of people would,if they knew they had been erased, take a sceptical view of said parts...........like buying a engine with no engine number.........car with no/amended VIN number

Engine and VIN numbers are required by law to reduce the possibility of vehicle crime. Very few people will care what the part number of fuel injector is. I don't even care as long as it does what it's supposed to do.

I think this issue has been done to death now. I am sure that nobody is really interested (except to see two grown men waste a lot of time and make fools of themselves).

I respect your right to think whatever you think so please do me the same courtessy. Thank you.