War In IRAQ

[Monster-Mat]

if you have a burning desire to post a reason or thought ,let us hear it.........im sure mark has

[wildrnes]

i dont want a war

i dont agree with the american dictator's style

it can only go wrong

if bush wants a fight then he should go and do it himself

preferably hand to hand using pillows only wearing a chicken suit

think of the ratings man

sorry bout the spelling got my old mate stella over

[Matthew_McNally]

I voted No - for a slew of reasons, biggest ones being.

1 - I do not trust George W. Bush or his reasons and motivations for going to war.

This is about oil - and that is all it is about.

Look at the tinpot dicators committing atrocities all over the world (Mugabe anyone?), or the situation in North Korea (who in case you missed it are re-activating nuclear reactors).

Don't hear no sabres rattling about those situations?

2 - I certainly do not think that our soldiers should be risking their lives to ensure the continuity of Americas oil supplies.

I thought our armed forces signed up to protect Queen and Country?

I don't see a threat to our country that is not of our own making for our alliegience with the Americans and their incessant meddling were they are not needed nor welcome.

3 - And probably biggest reason is - the Middle East is the biggest melting pot on the face of the planet at the moment.

The last thing we need is more fireworks.

I have a fair bit more to say on the subject, but its late, and I;m not in the mood for a all night session at the keyboard (i have a fridge full of beer and a stomach full of air - I intend to go and reverse this situation)

look forward to other's points - especially those who are pro war.

[wildrnes]

and on that note we cue the music

[Monster-Mat]

i wish i could add more than i am going to.

firstly,i was in Iraq in 1990/91,i spent 6 months there doing this and that,we knew the mandate was to remove the iraq's from Kuwait,however even at that time everyone knew more should have been done.it was evident even then that Mr Hussain was playing games.

there is more to this forthcoming war than just oil,there are things that i obviously cannot put onto a forum,but i can assure people that this is NOT a war being generated by Bush..even though he is making the biggest deal over it.

if...the 1990/91 war had not happened,iraq would have the technology to launch chemical and biological weapons against europe,and with the available data they had would have been able with unheaded advances possibly be able to do it with nuclear weapons by now.

his games that he constantly plays and has played over the last 11 years has been generated to lay a smoke screen over his continued development of his weapons,look at the facts,he has in the past been watched and monitored producing munitions of mass destruction,he has constantly said he will continue to develop these munitions.

he is not the worlds biggest threat,he is however the worlds most eager and unstable,his aim is to de-stabalise the region

and he will support any terrorist organisation that does not support the western philosophy,of freedom of speech etc etc

i am not pro war.however sometimes we get the facts and not the swaying inflated facts as shown in the media

[uzziz]

Bush is creating a war where innocent ppl will die as a result, consequently the east and west fighting to the end until there resources have run dry.

The docier was compiled by Iraqi , which had some evidence of chemical nuclear weapons of mass destruction being developed in the middle east ie importing of necessary chemicals to produce the weapon. Bush felt/feels threatened by this discovery and feels vulnerable as a result of the 9/11 attacks.

Hes doing everything in his power to eliminate all the existance of nuclear weapons from the middle East.

From Satelite surveillance to spy planes etc.

Sadam lies a threat to the west just like asaman bin laden who was the mastermind behind the 9/11 and previous attacks on the world trade centre.

The networks of the ALquida group is said to have indirect links with Sadam, could the next war bring a nuclear disaster by a man who has no remorse on his own ppl, he who doesn,t care may bring disaster upon the lives of millions of innocent ppl.

I am afraid some one out there will create havoc...

all wars will never end its just the beginning

4/5 months before the 9/11 attacks i purchased a vcd called nastradamos the man who saw tommorrow (all you may know who he is) his predictions came true.

I was stunned when the film focused on the east and west showing the americans going to war with the middle east. It showed a prince of the east with high tech weapons and a base designed in the undergrowth with all his operatives activating the nuclear weapons from the east.

Guess who the prince was suppose to be asama bin ladan and his network of operatives.

He gave the orders to activate the bombs which hovered through space, the target was washington d.c and newyork 1 bomb was blown to smitheriens whilst above the earths atmosphere.

But two more nuclear bombs were sent to destroy the two land marks of newyork (twin towers)

it showed how the two rockets blew up the buildings and everything around it.

This was true all show on the vcd i was astonished.

FBI knew of such attack that was about to happen but it was unavoidable, they were oblivious that planes would be used as weapons.

Things are happening that we are unware of, disaster may strike again but its just a matter of time before it does.

Ijust hope the east and west does't go to war this could have disasterous implications.

[Monster-Mat]

yes i know the works of Nostradamis.....i read a few of his "works"

however i am sure that if.....canary warf or indeed we had had such a terrible attack on the UK wether the feelings would be different.

there is a real and known threat to the UK at this moment,from chemical/biological weapons,And i know the effects these things will have on the population.what will it take....an actual attack for the war on terrorism to go ahead full steam.

yes,inocent ppl will be killed,but if we stand back...how many more will be killed....remove the threat

bush Will not do this alone,he threatens he will......you would be supprised how many countries are already providing technical,logistical and real help in the forthcoming events.........and there not all western countries either

[wildrnes]

ok to be bluntly honest i am scared and i dont want to die so i dont want a war which will end with some mad f##k killing me and my boy

be that mad ***** hussain or dubbya

[ifraz]

Great points made by all on this subject. I voted for NO TO WAR!

Bush Junior is just wanting to finish the job that his dad started and failed to finish.

Also, why the f@@k does blair lick his @rse so much?

[Monster-Mat]

it would be nice to hear other views,i see 2 have voted for now.....and 8 against,if you dont want to add a view,at least vote...its had 80 hits.........why not at least 40 votes

[tdiplc]

Duh - I don't understand the poll.

Is the question WILL there be or SHOULD there be war?

Personally I do not think that a war can be successful against terrorism because of their cowardly attacks on civilians and other soft targets.

I cannot think of any group of religious terrorist that have not gotten some way towards their goals. The Palestineans, IRA, ETA, Intefada etc etc have all had remarkable advances though terrorism.

The question is what are we going to do about it? Do we let them do what they want? Do we all become Muslim? Do we try and stop them or is there another way?

[Monster-Mat]

The question is what are we going to do about it? Do we let them do what they want? Do we all become Muslim? Do we try and stop them or is there another way?

well whats your answer.........

and it was "should there be"...sorry :(

[Matthew_McNally]

Is the question WILL there be or SHOULD there be war?

I think there will be war, irregardless of the outcome of the UN Inspectors.

GWB knows that he has little chance of re-election.

He failed to do what he promised in the war on terrorism.

His ecomony is falling around his ears, after some of the largest companies in the country disappeared.

And probably number one reason in his mind, he has a scoree to settle for his daddy.

None of which pisses me off as much as the fact that British troops will be involved (and probably shot by Americans) thanks to Tony Blair's kissing of GWB's *****.

And when (if) it is discussed in HoC - none of our duly elected officials will have the guts to speak up or vote against it.

[tdiplc]

well whats your answer.........

I don't think there is an answer.

There is no way that everyone on this planet can be happy, and whilst there are charasmatic leaders that can mislead the stupid and the zealous, the rest of us are in big trouble.

Whilst there is someone in charge of Iraq that is a threat to the oil pipeline that runs through it, GWB will not be happy.

Personally I am more concerned about what is happening in this country than in Iraq. Lucky us, there are another 110,000 Iraqi's on there way to us as refugees. I wonder how many of them are willing and able to poison our water supplies and plant bombs. Plus of course up 90,000 000 Turks who will be free to live and work here if Blair has his way

It's not looking good people.

[Zee007]

Interesting topic this - good call Mat.

OK - for those who know me (Mat, Andy, Rob, Rod, Johnny etc), I am a Muslim. Now I practice and do what I have to do for what I believe is true (based on research etc). I am NOT racist based on colour or religon (never have been and nor will I ever be) but am proud of who I am as a person but DO NOT rub peoples face in it.

Now I take people at face value - doesn't matter what you look like or what you practice. I never make assumptions and will base my views on research and facts. Now living out in America for the last 3 months has been very interesting. I respected the US for their status, financial capacity, business ethics etc and the chance to work there was one I don't regret.

However - I do not believe these people learn by their mistakes. I went through hell at airports everytime I flew to and from DC because I fit the so called profile (Muslim male, 21 to 30, single etc). I DO NOT agree with the Al-Qaeedaa actions. They are not classed as Muslims by REAL Muslims because what they are doing is taking life into their own hands and that is not theirs for the taking. I hear "Jehad" flung around - meaning Holy War in Arabic. The true meaning of Jehad is to fight for land if it yours and being taken unrightfully OR to fight to maintain your religon if it is under threat. Niether of these (as far as I can tell) are happening.

Now getting back to the US. They are ignorant people wanting to fight for the sake of fighting. They are generalising innocent people (such as me) without even attempting to understand what is going on. This is not a Muslims against the World war - it is a group of nutters potraying or using the Muslim title as a cover against America war. And propoganda doesn't help I can tell you that.

I do not believe War is the solution. In fact I know it isn't. People like Saddam and Bin Laden will stop at nothing because they have nothing to lose. What is the solution - I don't know, but I can tell you one thing that will help... If I as a British citizen, born and bred in England, can adopt and embrace the culture here and learn to appreciate other religons in my last 25 years, then this kind of behaviour may enable people to actually get along and solve some of the differences and disputes in the world.

War? - No way.

[ifraz]

Zee007, Good points...well made!!

[Gamesound]

Democracy?..... Why is it not ok for Iraq to have nuclear weapons and yet its ok for the USA to have them?..... that sound like a dictator to me.....

Also, China has major human rights issues (as does saudi)... lets see bush start on china first followed by sorting out the problems in Israel, saudi and then Kashmir.

I love america and spend a lot of time there, but bush and blair should just book a seedy hotel room together and get it over and done with.... Blair is just Bush's gimp.

[Matthew_McNally]

They are ignorant people wanting to fight for the sake of fighting.

I know I shouldn't generalise Americans like this - and that I couldn't possibly know every single american to be able to come to a proper conclusion.

But this is exactly how I think of Amercians.

Beer in one hand, gun in the other - talking about kicking *****.

sorry to any American members

[Gamesound]

The irony is / was that actors like mickey rourke funded the IRA because he thought they were "freedom fighters"..... and when your 7000 miles away and your country has never had terrorism, you can think like that...... Bizarrely, he stopped funding them after SEPT 11th, when he had "terrorism" on his doorstep! (albeiet thousands of miles away from hollywood!)

Whilst i am not religous, you have to understand that people have views other than that of your own - If I was a muslim, I would have been annoyed (Like Bin Laden) that despite telling the americans to get there war machine out of there holy land (mecca, saudi) they stuck there fingers up and said No.

[Matthew_McNally]

Whilst i am not religous, you have to understand that people have views other than that of your own - If I was a muslim, I would have been annoyed (Like Bin Laden) that despite telling the americans to get there war machine out of there holy land (mecca, saudi) they stuck there fingers up and said No.

Part of me thinks thats exactly what we should do.

but leave them completely alone

don't buy anything from them, nor sell anything to them.

Aid?

Charity?

Loans?

nah - you want to be left alone - we will leave you completely alone.

but a (more sensible) part of me realises that would only deprive us of contact with the 99% of people in these countries who aren't suicide bombers

[Zee007]

Good points by Matthew and Gamesound. I have been unlucky enough to be in Washington DC on Sept 11th and during the sniper attacks. To see their reaction to the destruction to their country and people was humbling. I - like them, was sorry to see the death toll rise and the hurt and agony felt by so many. But the way I was made to feel out there and the way I was treated was disgraceful. I come back to my earlier point regarding ignorance.

But why did this happen? Is it because the likes of Bin Laden have been pushed too far? As Gamesound said "If I was a muslim, I would have been annoyed (Like Bin Laden) that despite telling the americans to get there war machine out of there holy land (mecca, saudi) they stuck there fingers up and said No. " Are the Americans getting too big for their boots? (Big genarilastion I know). Or, are Bin Laden et al just plain idiots?

Well, as Matthew states that we could just cease any form of contact with these nations that are being genarilised by Bin Laden and properganda. I'm sorry, but because of a handful of people who are out there causing this destruction, once again (and this is certainly NOT the first time) ALL Muslims are being put in the same pot. We have the fastest growing religon in the World. Why? Because they were teaching us to kill people and bomb countries - No, because it was teaching people that religon can be a great way of life. (As do other religons - please don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying this is the right religon, purely stating a fact).

There are over 50 different types of Muslims in the world (Shia, Sunni, Khoja to name but a few) and I totally agree with Mat: "a (more sensible) part of me realises that would only deprive us of contact with the 99% of people in these countries who aren't suicide bombers". Leaving them alone is NOT the solution. At the end of the day, different culture, different colour, different religon - who cares? We are the same people, we are born the same way, we breath the same air, we have the same organs etc.

Bottom line - people should understand one another, talk to one another, RESPECT one another - not only their beliefs but for who they are - Human beings who have a right to live.

[Matthew_McNally]

Bottom line - people should understand one another, talk to one another, RESPECT one another - not only their beliefs but for who they are - Human beings who have a right to live.

/matt puts on his "I'm With Zee007" T-Shirt and stands next to Zee

:D

I agree 100% with your sentiments mate - "Human beings who have a right to live", which is exactly why we should not go to war.

from http://www.hiddenwars.com/

A US Department of Defense controlled, CNN exclusive media coverage then displayed the image of a clean, sanitized, "surgically accurate" campaign of bombing from the part of the allies against Saddam Hussein's forces. The evidence on the ground as well as bombing raid reports suggest instead the use of massive carpet-bombing alleged to have dropped 85,000 tons of bombs, or the equivalent of seven and-a-half Hiroshimas, primarily on civilian infrastructures and at the cost of about 200,000 civilian lives according to former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark.

all of these people had just as much of a right to live as those of us sitting here reading our Lexus forums.

Saddam may be an "evil man who must be stopped" - but how many Iraqi's are decent law abiding human beings?

How many of those 200,000 people were "Evil men who must be stopped"?

How many were children?

And now the Americans want to go back for a another run.

[Monster-Mat]

matt,that last post is negative prpeganda.....

the americans never carpet bombed iraq....well not near areas of habitation,the only area i knew of was the saudi/iraq border.......so 200,000 casualties.....

we never even took 200.000 prisoners,and they all gave themselves up before we ever saw them.

I think were going slightly of the topic here,this was not asking if we should go to war with muslims.......it was against IRAQ.

My original posts, reflect the reasons for,not fighting muslims but fighting iraq.

i wish i could add more than i am going to.

firstly,i was in Iraq in 1990/91,i spent 6 months there doing this and that,we knew the mandate was to remove the iraq's from Kuwait,however even at that time everyone knew more should have been done.it was evident even then that Mr Hussain was playing games.

there is more to this forthcoming war than just oil,there are things that i obviously cannot put onto a forum,but i can assure people that this is NOT a war being generated by Bush..even though he is making the biggest deal over it.

if...the 1990/91 war had not happened,iraq would have the technology to launch chemical and biological weapons against europe,and with the available data they had would have been able with unheaded advances possibly be able to do it with nuclear weapons by now.

his games that he constantly plays and has played over the last 11 years has been generated to lay a smoke screen over his continued development of his weapons,look at the facts,he has in the past been watched and monitored producing munitions of mass destruction,he has constantly said he will continue to develop these munitions.

he is not the worlds biggest threat,he is however the worlds most eager and unstable,his aim is to de-stabalise the region

and he will support any terrorist organisation that does not support the western philosophy,of freedom of speech etc etc

i am not pro war.however sometimes we get the facts and not the swaying inflated facts as shown in the media

[tdiplc]

So shall I try and sell my Timeshare in Baghdad then ?

[Monster-Mat]

NOT YET..........let me know the address, me and the boys will stop there when we have a few days off.......i promise not to drink everything in the mini bar