More Work Being Done

boddamloon · November 7, 2008

This day and age in a cutting edge industry, paper records are not sufficent. Cmon guys its nearly 2009!!! You would be just as well throwing the paper in the bin and just tell the customer over the phone!!!!

TigerFish · November 7, 2008

This day and age in a cutting edge industry, paper records are not sufficent. Cmon guys its nearly 2009!!! You would be just as well throwing the paper in the bin and just tell the customer over the phone!!!!

Come on guys, we are talking about a garage, not MI5 or the Pentagon. Electronic data is just as easily "tampered" with as paper. Infact, a piece of paper knocking around a filing cabinet for a year is going to show signs of age, and any new additions to it will stand out like a turd on a bowling green. Electronic data shows no such ageing. If you are really expecting a garage to have encrypted, locked away, stored off site, top secret classification dyno reports, then someone will have had to do that, and they will know how to undo or remove that protection, and therefore tamper as easily as they could before. Having an electronic copy of the info is no more use than having a hard copy, simple as that really.

tdiplc · November 7, 2008

Paper documentation is more than sufficient. Medical notes, Police reports and so on are all hand written. Electronic documentation is a different minefield and many companies opt for handwritten records above electronic ones. What medium the records are on is of absolutely no significance to a case.
Robs Lexx - yes they can be retrospectively altered in the same way you can saw your own leg off if you want but that is also of no significance. If something is documented then it happened at the time unless damming evidence can be found to the contrary.

that is fair enough if the data is being input by hand in the first instance, but when the data is electronically gathered and stored then surely hand written notes would only be an inferior back up and totally subject to mistakes or falsities

forgive me if I am wrong but mapping is normally done with a laptop through a program, with data being stored within or by removable disc

dyno work is carried out through a computer with all readings on show, recordable and printable, I have yet to ever see a hand drawn dyno graph

Please allow me to explain:

The electronic data in question is gathered by the Rototest DATAQ aquisition system and integrates with the dyno. It is designed as a scientific quality machine and is a long way from being "user friendly". Some operators say that the compromise of it's depth of capabilities lies in it's quirky data capture and storage. In real terms this means that data storage is not an intuitive or one step process so can easily not be stored properly due to human error. There is also the PC reliability issue to be concerned with (we have already had one hard drive failure on the Rototest), therefore we choose to also retain a paper hard copy of the fundamental elements of the data as a fall back position. This record is kept in a file on each client along with the job card, dyno chart (where appropriate) all written communications, hand written notes of verbal communications and our inspection reports etc. All of our records conform to ISO9001 standards, which no other company in our industry can claim.

I understand the point that hard copies can be falsified, and would agree that it may be possible or even likely in a "one man band" type of operation. In our circumstances, for our paper records to be falsified it would require the Operator or Technician, the Workshop Manager (who signs the work off), and a Senior Manager (me or Sam) to all be complicit in falsification. From a commercial perspective this would not make any sense because it would be far more cost effective to repair a mistake or refund money that it would be to impugn our integrity or reputation. As a company we are transparent (which is a rarity in our industry) and always recommend that our work is independantly validated, so any falsification would become clear quite quickly.

ECU calibration (or "mapping") is done via a lap top. The calibration files are completely different to the dyno data logging files stored on the Rototest. The ECU calibration files are stored on a lap top and on the main server. These are user friendly and are automatically saved, so we choose to have only electronic copies (not paper copies).

The dyno graphs are printed from the Rototest dyno at the time of the test. If the data is saved properly to the PC (subject to human error), it should be retrievable at any time.

As I said previously, we do try and retain electronic recrods of everything, but time and experience has proven to us that paper records are more reliable.

I will understand if some of you don't agree, but the way we do business seems to work for us.

I hope this helps.

boddamloon · November 7, 2008

If you wnnt to a shop that had a computerised till and you asked for a receipt and they hand wrote you one would you think it strange TFK???? I dont disagree that it can also be tampered with but why is the world moving on in industries???? So we can write it on a piece of paper???? Its amazing what you can do on a PC thesedays you can even make paper look aged ;)

Rob's Lexx · November 7, 2008

yep, paper back-ups are worthwhile. i have a lab book for that. but the 'as obtained' electronic data should always be the 1st port of call.

amazing how many times a decimal point is accidentally in the wrong place, or one digit has been missed eroniously. so what i'm getting at is that if u have had 1 hard drive fail, that should have been backed up 2 times at least. so there should always be a way of getting hold of the raw data, if and when its needed.

TigerFish · November 7, 2008

yep, paper back-ups are worthwhile. i have a lab book for that. but the 'as obtained' electronic data should always be the 1st port of call.
amazing how many times a decimal point is accidentally in the wrong place, or one digit has been missed eroniously. so what i'm getting at is that if u have had 1 hard drive fail, that should have been backed up 2 times at least. so there should always be a way of getting hold of the raw data, if and when its needed.

I have no idea on Dyno machines, so can you talk us through how you back up a dyno machine Rob?

Rob's Lexx · November 7, 2008

yep, paper back-ups are worthwhile. i have a lab book for that. but the 'as obtained' electronic data should always be the 1st port of call.
amazing how many times a decimal point is accidentally in the wrong place, or one digit has been missed eroniously. so what i'm getting at is that if u have had 1 hard drive fail, that should have been backed up 2 times at least. so there should always be a way of getting hold of the raw data, if and when its needed.

I have no idea on Dyno machines, so can you talk us through how you back up a dyno machine Rob?

trying to be sarcastic or summit..............

u back up data, not a machine. if u wanna know how to 'back-up a dyno machine' i suggest putting it on a trolley that's on wheels and pushing it in the direction iu want it to go.... that should do the trick.

u know the data on ur computer......if u attach some external storage device, u can quite easily back all the info up. now i presume, and it is a presumption, that the dyno machine is linked directly to a computer. thereby allowing its data to be stored securely on additional memory devices.

anyway, i hope u get it sorted adie, and let us know how it all turns out. Be a shame if uy do decide to get rid, but if your hearts not in it anymore mate then its understandable.

sparkystav · November 7, 2008

Come on Lads this is about Adies car, not paper over Electronics.

I admit theres some questions to be explained, but a separate thread can do that.

Stav

Rob's Lexx · November 7, 2008

^^^^^ agreed ^^^^^

sorry for going adie

RoadRash · November 8, 2008

Would be nice if Adie would give some comment,

since that thread gets wasted more and more.....

Adie · November 11, 2008

Would be nice if Adie would give some comment,
since that thread gets wasted more and more.....

Still waiting mate. Should know more tomorrow.

DJ Wozza · November 11, 2008

I hope it is good news for you Adie

B15RUP · November 11, 2008

Fingers crossed mate!

cho · November 11, 2008

Goodluck mate. hope it is sorted out for you.

Adie · November 11, 2008

Oh I'll be very suprised if its back this week. Maybe this year. If its not back tomorrow then RGS have said they'll give me the money back I paid for mapping as I gave them 2 weeks to get it back finished or not.. Which I think was 5 weeks ago. So another month knocked off the calender.

DJ Wozza · November 11, 2008

So where is the car now Adie and what needs to be done to get it back on the road and running well ?

chrisis200 · November 11, 2008

So where is the car now Adie and what needs to be done to get it back on the road and running well ?

Very good question as I'm totally lost on this topic now, what is the problem again? Needs mapping? Is the car driveble?

Adie · November 12, 2008

The car is at Abbey still. Apparently they now can't map it. Would have been nice to have known that 8 months or so ago. I have said to RGS that I will pick my car up from Abbey as I'm fed up with excuses and general bullsh*t from both garages. Apparently the bumper is at RGS in Wellingborough so as not to damage it on the lorry transporting it. I might be getting paranoid but I'm starting to think maybe something has happened to it, or even if I have a car. It just seems people don't want to give me my car back or for me to pick it up.

Has anybody been to Abbey lately? Have you seen my car down there?

Dave-Ellen · November 12, 2008

The car is at Abbey still. Apparently they now can't map it. Would have been nice to have known that 8 months or so ago. I have said to RGS that I will pick my car up from Abbey as I'm fed up with excuses and general bullsh*t from both garages. Apparently the bumper is at RGS in Wellingborough so as not to damage it on the lorry transporting it. I might be getting paranoid but I'm starting to think maybe something has happened to it, or even if I have a car. It just seems people don't want to give me my car back or for me to pick it up.
Has anybody been to Abbey lately? Have you seen my car down there?

bummer--have you spoken to Abbey yourself ?

Adie · November 12, 2008

No mate I haven't. The way I see it at the moment is that I left my car at RGS for the work to be done. Who they decided to use is down to them as I am their customer not Abbey's. This way I've only got one garage that I can have a go at / deal with and am not running around in circles, back and forth between two garages. (If you know what I mean).

Dave-Ellen · November 12, 2008

No mate I haven't. The way I see it at the moment is that I left my car at RGS for the work to be done. Who they decided to use is down to them as I am their customer not Abbey's. This way I've only got one garage that I can have a go at / deal with and am not running around in circles, back and forth between two garages. (If you know what I mean).

I'd respectfully suggest you give Abbey a call yourself.

Ask for an update from Mark there. THey will give you the full SP with no bulls**t

From what I know its the way its wired in thats causing various conflicts. I've been told that the IS200 HKS F-Con V Pro install was marketed as being ready before it was fully tested. This was by someone who recently left Tdi.

Dave Reads car is now running fine which lends some credance to my previous statement. Yours was a fairly early install I believe.

Adie · November 12, 2008

Mine was the first 1f-ge IS200 to have the V-Pro installed. I'm now thinking of putting something else in it to get it sorted.

Dave-Ellen · November 12, 2008

Mine was the first 1f-ge IS200 to have the V-Pro installed. I'm now thinking of putting something else in it to get it sorted.

you should get some return on the sale of the V-Pro at least

Bazza · November 12, 2008

The car is at Abbey still. Apparently they now can't map it. Would have been nice to have known that 8 months or so ago. I have said to RGS that I will pick my car up from Abbey as I'm fed up with excuses and general bullsh*t from both garages. Apparently the bumper is at RGS in Wellingborough so as not to damage it on the lorry transporting it. I might be getting paranoid but I'm starting to think maybe something has happened to it, or even if I have a car. It just seems people don't want to give me my car back or for me to pick it up.
Has anybody been to Abbey lately? Have you seen my car down there?

yes, it was there late september

and Mark asked me for some info about ecu diagrams on it early october

it was in full view and certainly wasn't hidden away as if something was wrong with it, and was mentioned to me, rather than me asking about it