More Work Being Done

[Gord]

Right, did you or did you not blow Adies engine when mapping it ?

No we did not blow Adies engine.

The sub standard head gasket solution (two head gaskets and a non-conformable decompression plate) that was implemented by whoever built the engine, failed catastrophically.

Upon inspection, other internal isses were discovered that would have significantly reduced the engine's life expectancy, even if the sub standard head gasket solution had prevailed.

As with all situations where there may be a suspicion over the quality of our work, I recommended that Adie obtain an independant Engineers report. He did that, and I guess it's up to him whether he wants to share that with you but I can tell you that there was no fault found with our work.

Then you said it was head gasket ?

But all six pistons was f****ed and more ?

You say it was person that did the engine ?

That's correct. The head gasket failure was the original symptom and cause of the failure.

Upon engine strip down and inspection it was discovered that the piston skirts had seized in the bores and that there was a significant amount of dirt and debris inside the engine. Aparantly the engine had previously experienced a recent oil pump failure so I guess it is possible that the engine was not cleaned properly at the time of the build or subsequently after the oil pump failure (this is purely a logical speculation based on the discoverable evidence, and is no way intended to be pejoritive towards the engine builder).

Of crucial significance is the fact that there was no damage to the piston crowns. If there was damage to the piston crowns this could have meant that our tuning proceedures were not correct and possibly the cause of the engine failure. A classic symptom of incorrectly calibrated fuel and/or ignition is what is known as "detonation marks". Detonation marks are demonstrated by clear and obvious severe erotion damage to the piston crowns and cylinder head. Adies pistons had no detonation damage whatsover as confirmed by the independant Engineer.

The reason Adie had to change the pistons was due to the scuff marks left by the partial seizures, and not related in way shape or form to any tuning work that we had carried out.

When asked for mapping data to prove afr and mapping ok, you say, no (well lost it, same as you did with cho) ?

The head gasket failed during road testing, therefore no dyno data was being captured at that point. Chanjit was offered the hard copy of his calibration report.

I am hopeful that you and your chums have a better understanding of the situation now, and now realise that you have been completely wrong for a long time which has resulted in a high degree of toxicity for LOC and TDI.

I don't expect an apology, but I will request that you try to avoid jumping to conclusions in future. All you need to do is ask to find the correct answers.

All the best :)

Thanks for your side of the story (as you keep telling me, 2 sides to every story) and in this case both different :duh:

You still not answered my last question ? the side ive herd is no, dont see why you would say no, as your side saying everything was ok, sure you could back this up with you supplying the date requested ?

And from Cho's post above, sounds like he didn't get his data to ? who are my chums you refer to above, that need a better understanding ?

And as for someone jumping to conclusions.......i never had the apology from yourself when you was wrongly jumped to the conclusion, that i was part of Prolex uk :o You was TOLD on several occasions, i was not and never have been part of Prolex uk, but you still insisted i was, and you WAS/ARE clearly WRONG.

[tdiplc]

Right, did you or did you not blow Adies engine when mapping it ?

No we did not blow Adies engine.

The sub standard head gasket solution (two head gaskets and a non-conformable decompression plate) that was implemented by whoever built the engine, failed catastrophically.

Upon inspection, other internal isses were discovered that would have significantly reduced the engine's life expectancy, even if the sub standard head gasket solution had prevailed.

As with all situations where there may be a suspicion over the quality of our work, I recommended that Adie obtain an independant Engineers report. He did that, and I guess it's up to him whether he wants to share that with you but I can tell you that there was no fault found with our work.

Then you said it was head gasket ?

But all six pistons was f****ed and more ?

You say it was person that did the engine ?

That's correct. The head gasket failure was the original symptom and cause of the failure.

Upon engine strip down and inspection it was discovered that the piston skirts had seized in the bores and that there was a significant amount of dirt and debris inside the engine. Aparantly the engine had previously experienced a recent oil pump failure so I guess it is possible that the engine was not cleaned properly at the time of the build or subsequently after the oil pump failure (this is purely a logical speculation based on the discoverable evidence, and is no way intended to be pejoritive towards the engine builder).

Of crucial significance is the fact that there was no damage to the piston crowns. If there was damage to the piston crowns this could have meant that our tuning proceedures were not correct and possibly the cause of the engine failure. A classic symptom of incorrectly calibrated fuel and/or ignition is what is known as "detonation marks". Detonation marks are demonstrated by clear and obvious severe erotion damage to the piston crowns and cylinder head. Adies pistons had no detonation damage whatsover as confirmed by the independant Engineer.

The reason Adie had to change the pistons was due to the scuff marks left by the partial seizures, and not related in way shape or form to any tuning work that we had carried out.

When asked for mapping data to prove afr and mapping ok, you say, no (well lost it, same as you did with cho) ?

The head gasket failed during road testing, therefore no dyno data was being captured at that point. Chanjit was offered the hard copy of his calibration report.

I am hopeful that you and your chums have a better understanding of the situation now, and now realise that you have been completely wrong for a long time which has resulted in a high degree of toxicity for LOC and TDI.

I don't expect an apology, but I will request that you try to avoid jumping to conclusions in future. All you need to do is ask to find the correct answers.

All the best :)

Thanks for your side of the story (as you keep telling me, 2 sides to every story) and in this case both different :duh:

No problem. To avoid making the same mistake again it's normally a good thing to ask questions first.

You still not answered my last question ? the side ive herd is no, dont see why you would say no, as your side saying everything was ok, sure you could back this up with you supplying the date requested ?

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you are asking. Please rephrase your question or point.

And from Cho's post above, sounds like he didn't get his data to ? who are my chums you refer to above, that need a better understanding ?

And as for someone jumping to conclusions.......i never had the apology from yourself when you was wrongly jumped to the conclusion, that i was part of Prolex uk :o You was TOLD on several occasions, i was not and never have been part of Prolex uk, but you still insisted i was, and you WAS/ARE clearly WRONG.

Charnjit was shown and offered a copy of the calibration report.

I am not sure what you are refering to (the only thing I recall is repeating a quote about you being the Prolex Minister for Propoganda) but I apologise to you if I have said anything that is not correct in the heat of dealing with you.

[cho]

I have never seen a copy of the calibration report for my car, so that statement is totally inaccurate.

[Rob's Lexx]

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

[Gord]

I have never seen a copy of the calibration report for my car, so that statement is totally inaccurate.

Think it would read something like

Cho's lexus was running ok, dont worry about the lights on your dash, it will remind you of christmas time

Ps, i would advise getting shares in BP or Shell, as you will be visiting these establishments more often than you think

[tdiplc]

I have never seen a copy of the calibration report for my car, so that statement is totally inaccurate.

There is a witness to the fact that you have. I think you may be confusing it with the electronic data you asked us for which we could not provide.

[tdiplc]

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

Our records conform to ISO9001 standards. We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position.

[tdiplc]

I have never seen a copy of the calibration report for my car, so that statement is totally inaccurate.

Think it would read something like

Cho's lexus was running ok, dont worry about the lights on your dash, it will remind you of christmas time

Ps, i would advise getting shares in BP or Shell, as you will be visiting these establishments more often than you think

May I ask whether you have finished with your comments about Adies car?

[cho]

The only documentation I have received from TDI regarding the calibration of my car was a dyno report. This had no pressure readings, no afr, no temp readings etc.

[sparkystav]

The hard copy being some hand written notes.

Those are what we store and rely on. We find electronic media (or human operator) to be insuffuciently reliable.

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

Our records conform to ISO9001 standards. We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position.

Paper is "fall back" or paper is the main form as electronic is insufficient? make your mind up

[tdiplc]

The only documentation I have received from TDI regarding the calibration of my car was a dyno report. This had no pressure readings, no afr, no temp readings etc.

As you and TDi are likely to be in litigation, I am not prepared to potentially prejudice our position by making any further comments on yourself or your car. This thread is about Adies car.

[aaronabbott]

The hard copy being some hand written notes.

Those are what we store and rely on. We find electronic media (or human operator) to be insuffuciently reliable.

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

Our records conform to ISO9001 standards. We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position.

Paper is "fall back" or paper is the main form as electronic is insufficient? make your mind up

or electronic media is found to be insuffuciently reliable.(whatever that means)

[tdiplc]

The hard copy being some hand written notes.

Those are what we store and rely on. We find electronic media (or human operator) to be insuffuciently reliable.

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

Our records conform to ISO9001 standards. We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position.

Paper is "fall back" or paper is the main form as electronic is insufficient? make your mind up

I have already made it clear: We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position. We have more problems with electronic data storage than paper storage.

[aaronabbott]

The hard copy being some hand written notes.

Those are what we store and rely on. We find electronic media (or human operator) to be insuffuciently reliable.

if all records are kept on paper....is it not very very easy for them to be retro-actively fabricated??? not saying that's what happens in cases of 'lost' data, but its possible is it not?? surely time stamped electronic data, stored securely with several backups is more accurate and safe??

Our records conform to ISO9001 standards. We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position.

Paper is "fall back" or paper is the main form as electronic is insufficient? make your mind up

I have already made it clear: We try to retain both electronic and paper records, but paper is the "fall back" position. We have more problems with electronic data storage than paper storage.

so wouldnt the customer have a copy of the electronic paper record also first.that would help dont you think

[aztecbandit1]

Wasnt this a topic about Adie's car???

[Gord]

Wasnt this a topic about Adie's car???

Yep Sorry Chris, my last post was about Cho's car.

[WylieCoyote]

Paper documentation is more than sufficient. Medical notes, Police reports and so on are all hand written. Electronic documentation is a different minefield and many companies opt for handwritten records above electronic ones. What medium the records are on is of absolutely no significance to a case.

Robs Lexx - yes they can be retrospectively altered in the same way you can saw your own leg off if you want but that is also of no significance. If something is documented then it happened at the time unless damming evidence can be found to the contrary.

[aztecbandit1]

Wasnt this a topic about Adie's car???

Yep Sorry Chris, my last post was about Cho's car.

:P :P

[cho]

The only documentation I have received from TDI regarding the calibration of my car was a dyno report. This had no pressure readings, no afr, no temp readings etc.

As you and TDi are likely to be in litigation, I am not prepared to potentially prejudice our position by making any further comments on yourself or your car. This thread is about Adies car.

:winky:

[cho]

I hope Adie has had some luck with getting things sorted, it would be good to get an update from him.

[Bazza]

Paper documentation is more than sufficient. Medical notes, Police reports and so on are all hand written. Electronic documentation is a different minefield and many companies opt for handwritten records above electronic ones. What medium the records are on is of absolutely no significance to a case.

Robs Lexx - yes they can be retrospectively altered in the same way you can saw your own leg off if you want but that is also of no significance. If something is documented then it happened at the time unless damming evidence can be found to the contrary.

that is fair enough if the data is being input by hand in the first instance, but when the data is electronically gathered and stored then surely hand written notes would only be an inferior back up and totally subject to mistakes or falsities

forgive me if I am wrong but mapping is normally done with a laptop through a program, with data being stored within or by removable disc

dyno work is carried out through a computer with all readings on show, recordable and printable, I have yet to ever see a hand drawn dyno graph

[Monster-Mat]

I have yet to ever see a hand drawn dyno graph

no that statement is correct, however, you can print the graph.....and the data stored on the electronic means.

once the paper copy has been printed, there is not always a need to store electronic data.

[Bazza]

I have yet to ever see a hand drawn dyno graph

no that statement is correct, however, you can print the graph.....and the data stored on the electronic means.

once the paper copy has been printed, there is not always a need to store electronic data.

exactly ! why would anyone hand write them ?

there may not be a need to store it, but in today's technological world saving and keeping electronic is so cheap and easy that it does not make sense not to

[WylieCoyote]

Paper documentation is more than sufficient. Medical notes, Police reports and so on are all hand written. Electronic documentation is a different minefield and many companies opt for handwritten records above electronic ones. What medium the records are on is of absolutely no significance to a case.

Robs Lexx - yes they can be retrospectively altered in the same way you can saw your own leg off if you want but that is also of no significance. If something is documented then it happened at the time unless damming evidence can be found to the contrary.

that is fair enough if the data is being input by hand in the first instance, but when the data is electronically gathered and stored then surely hand written notes would only be an inferior back up and totally subject to mistakes or falsities

That's a good point, but surely the risk of human error in writing something by hand is the same risk as typing something into a computer wrong? Both carry risks of error.

Deliberate falseties is a different matter altogether, both mediums are prone to that if entering things manually. Electronic automatic capture is more difficult to do this with. (I'd have thought anyway?!)

[Bazza]

Paper documentation is more than sufficient. Medical notes, Police reports and so on are all hand written. Electronic documentation is a different minefield and many companies opt for handwritten records above electronic ones. What medium the records are on is of absolutely no significance to a case.

Robs Lexx - yes they can be retrospectively altered in the same way you can saw your own leg off if you want but that is also of no significance. If something is documented then it happened at the time unless damming evidence can be found to the contrary.

that is fair enough if the data is being input by hand in the first instance, but when the data is electronically gathered and stored then surely hand written notes would only be an inferior back up and totally subject to mistakes or falsities

That's a good point, but surely the risk of human error in writing something by hand is the same risk as typing something into a computer wrong? Both carry risks of error.

Deliberate falseties is a different matter altogether, both mediums are prone to that if entering things manually. Electronic automatic capture is more difficult to do this with. (I'd have thought anyway?!)

the input isnt written in by hand

the settings which are altered by hand input, are in a program, which reads/alters the ecu, which in turns alters the characteristics of the car, any error would be detrimental to the car !

the capture would merely be a copy of the program and any settings applied to it

a bit like changing the config files on your computer !