Capitalism - Good Or Bad?

[tdiplc]

What's your view on Capitalism and Capitalists?

Is someone that owns a successful company an employment and wealth creator and tax contributor or a greedy manipulator (or somewhere in the middle)?

[davepruce]

What's your view on Capitalism and Capitalists?

Is someone that owns a successful company an employment and wealth creator and tax contributor or a greedy manipulator (or somewhere in the middle)?

Anyone that can start and run a company and keep it afloat whilst employing people and actually doing something useful with the output deserves a big pat on the back in my opinion, and if in the meantime they manage to turn a profit then they deserve every penny, not that Flash Gordon wants you to keep any of it!!

[Lexmas]

Depends on the company. :winky:

There is no harm in making a very good profit from owning and running a company so employees and users of the company are happy. In fact that sounds like just about an ideal situation. :D

Anyway, not many other forms of society work IMO:

Feudalism - NO

Communism - NO

Socialism - NO

[Pip]

I am all for it. Its when they have no conscience or moral obligations in regards to others that things become pear shaped.

Mark i like how you state your prices + VAT. Makes me really miss the tax man.

[Jiberjaber]

Yep, I agree with Pip on this one, if the're in it for the long term then not a problem, short term who screw the customer / client and also their staff are not where it's at for me :)

That said there is a time and place for being adversarial, just not all of the time :)

[tdiplc]

Mark i like how you state your prices + VAT. Makes me really miss the tax man.

The reason we do that is because the majority of our work is "business to busniess" and overseas (who either don't pay or claim back the vat) Pip. It's probably something we should get out of the habit of :duh:

[Bazza]

What's your view on Capitalism and Capitalists?

Is someone that owns a successful company an employment and wealth creator and tax contributor or a greedy manipulator (or somewhere in the middle)?

i find the greedy manipulators are the ones who work for someone, then try and bleed them dry by demanding this that and everything else,

the ones who feel that any one who had the guts to start and form a succesful company shouldnt earn more money than them, and try and screw them out of it

problem is that people see any one who is doing good for themselves as greedy, what they dont see is the hard work they did to get to where they are

;)

[eddiea1]

What's your view on Capitalism and Capitalists?

Is someone that owns a successful company an employment and wealth creator and tax contributor or a greedy manipulator (or somewhere in the middle)?

as someone who has started a small company I can hand on heart say that you cannot be a greedy manipulator in fact you shoulder a lot of responsibility and risk you do not take on as an employee. If you work for a big company you get the pension, security and a monthly salary tax deducted. Running your own business you dont get the safety net, take a LOT of risk and for that you are "hopefully" rewarded.

Bear in mind that most companies fold in their early years.

I think capitalism is not perfect but we have yet to think of a more efficient way to allocate capital to good ideas and hard work. Of course I am against entrenched management in big companies paying themselves millions while they destroy shareholder value. But that is what independent directors and outside auditors are there to protect against.........

Mark i like how you state your prices + VAT. Makes me really miss the tax man.

The reason we do that is because the majority of our work is "business to busniess" and overseas (who either don't pay or claim back the vat) Pip. It's probably something we should get out of the habit of :duh:

makes sense B2B as the buyer is not at the end of the supply chain (ie the consumer) so will not pay VAT. In the US all prices tend to be quoted ex-VAT (sales tax) even at the supermarket. I guess its down to tradition / local use

[lexus boy]

Im a true capitalist through and through.

I think the UK is the only country I know of where people are not thought of as highly.

I mean you go to other countries someone has a nice house and a nice car and think they must be doing well for themselves, maybe someone to do business with.

Whereas in the UK if you have a nice house and a nice car etc people asume you must be a robbing ba$tard

[Fidgits]

Im all for capatilism..

I hate all this 'share the wealth' nonesense..

If you have the drive, ability and do the hard work to achieve something, then why shouldnt you be finacially rewarded...

If hippies want to get stoned and hug trees, then they should be content with living in mud huts and starving...

[terdancam]

actually communism has long been debated as the ideal form of community, but it has had the unfortunate side effect of being completely corruptable by the clever and powerful--exactly the same as modern capitalism!! :duh:

however, capitalism has now taken a nasty form that people are beginning to rebel against as it encourages the perverse situations as the starving in africa and the mega rich in newyork.

It is well documented that the divide between rich and poor has never been greater, with fewer people owning the wealth.

obviously the ramifications of killing world debt has been glossed over, population and resource wise--if all the people stopped dying in africa how would the 6.5b population cope in such matters such as energy.

nonetheless, people such as Bill Gates, although obscenely wealthy, donate stupendous amounts of money to charity (steve jobs of apple doesn`t though). But we do live in times where charity workers, firemen, cancer researchers, doctors and so forth are paid a relative pittance compared to people who have their moment in a heat magazine or on big brother. We have sportsmen paid more money in one week than most peole do in a few years.

interestingly and regardless of what form of government you advocate, we will either have anarchy when the energy runs out or close to utopia if energy is free and limitless. Comms, energy, politics and military is where the power is and this ain`t set to change anytime soon.

Capitalism at the lower end, your local butcher, it provider, garage or electrician is a whole world away from corporate capitalism that can affect whole generations.

And check carefully the CSR reports--don`t believe the hype as there are some extraordinarily cynical ones.

Scotchguard by 3M is an amazing example--all done in the name of profit.

and 90% of people live on 10% of the land in the uk.......

we live in a murky world, but sometimes there is a break in the clouds.. :winky:

[Fidgits]

did you know which product 3M makes the most money from though?

nope...

its the paint they use to paint the white lines on the road - its a patented substance with the reflective and luminous characteristics...

[eddiea1]

Im all for capatilism..

I hate all this 'share the wealth' nonesense..

If you have the drive, ability and do the hard work to achieve something, then why shouldnt you be finacially rewarded...

If hippies want to get stoned and hug trees, then they should be content with living in mud huts and starving...

a lot of the hippies found capitalism in a big way and a lot of them can now be found in senior positions in TV media and corporate America LOL

[Lexmas]

With regard to the divide between rich and poor; I think that the divide has never been smaller.

I agree that there is a great divide between the super rich and super poor in modern society. However, looking at a society such as Britain, never have the poor been in such a good position. yes house prices are astronomical etc, but look at the free education system and most imporantly healthcare system. Only 100 years ago, a lot of the poor would have simply died.

Yes, the rich are getting richer, but when has this ever not been the case? The poor have a far better standard of living than in the past. It is quite clear that both the rich and poor are better off in modern society.

As regards to the system of government/society, communism has never worked, does not work now and never will in the future. It is flawed by something as simple as human nature and there is nothing that anyone can do about that. Capitalism, for all its faults, and there are many, is the best form of society as yet developed.

[Pip]

With regard to the divide between rich and poor; I think that the divide has never been smaller.

I agree that there is a great divide between the super rich and super poor in modern society. However, looking at a society such as Britain, never have the poor been in such a good position. yes house prices are astronomical etc, but look at the free education system and most imporantly healthcare system. Only 100 years ago, a lot of the poor would have simply died.

Yes, the rich are getting richer, but when has this ever not been the case? The poor have a far better standard of living than in the past. It is quite clear that both the rich and poor are better off in modern society.

As regards to the system of government/society, communism has never worked, does not work now and never will in the future. It is flawed by something as simple as human nature and there is nothing that anyone can do about that. Capitalism, for all its faults, and there are many, is the best form of society as yet developed.

You need to take a look up north for the 'far better standard of living' for the poor and you wont be saying that.

[Fever]

I agree with whats been said...if someone has the guts to go out alone and form a company which turns into a respectable profitable business, that in turn produces a good product/service, then more power to them. Like Ian said, good luck tho them and they deserve all they get!

One thing in this country that really makes me mad is the people who do well are punished more (in terms of taxes and deductions). You work your life trying to achieve for yourself/family and improve your quality of life...and in turn your pay cheque gets slammed hard to provide the bone idle no hopers with cushy mobiles phones and free houses!! :tsktsk: :tsktsk: ...oh man don't get me started!! It's all wrong i'm affraid!!

[terdancam]

With regard to the divide between rich and poor; I think that the divide has never been smaller.

I agree that there is a great divide between the super rich and super poor in modern society. However, looking at a society such as Britain, never have the poor been in such a good position. yes house prices are astronomical etc, but look at the free education system and most imporantly healthcare system. Only 100 years ago, a lot of the poor would have simply died.

Yes, the rich are getting richer, but when has this ever not been the case? The poor have a far better standard of living than in the past. It is quite clear that both the rich and poor are better off in modern society.

As regards to the system of government/society, communism has never worked, does not work now and never will in the future. It is flawed by something as simple as human nature and there is nothing that anyone can do about that. Capitalism, for all its faults, and there are many, is the best form of society as yet developed.

You need to take a look up north for the 'far better standard of living' for the poor and you wont be saying that.

and also there is a huge, huge, huge difference in scale. There are more people alive today than have ever been alive in the past and so in pure numbers there are far more poor in our so called advanced form of government.

granted that in the uk, the poverty line seems to be dictated by the number of dvd players you own and not whether you can get enough bread, but as said earlier the have and have not divide is actually growing!! Globally its getting worse, not better. The fact that middle britain is no longer that great a distnace form the quickly disappearing working class is no indicator.

also its not actually communism, its marxism and i wouldn`t go holding up capitalism as a flawed poster boy. History will judge it against other forms, its only the strongest and prevalent at the time that seems to be the best..........in a hundred years time it could be judged as the most dangerous if environmental concerns come true. :duh:

oh and communism does work---look at the size of china and the projections of its global power by 2050. It is projected to overtake the US (businessweek online). Who says it don`t work? It ain`t pretty granted but its going stratoshperic!! :duh:

[Lexmas]

oh and communism does work---look at the size of china and the projections of its global power by 2050. It is projected to overtake the US (businessweek online). Who says it don`t work? It ain`t pretty granted but its going stratoshperic!! :duh:

Communism does NOT work!!!!!

China is far from achieveing the equal distribution of goods etc that form the fundementals of Marxist-Lenninism/Communism. China was a dictatorship under the Chairman and is now an oligarchy. The reason for China's ever-growing economic (and therefore power) increase is one factor - resources. Both of material and people.

[Wosket]

Im all for capatilism..

I hate all this 'share the wealth' nonesense..

If you have the drive, ability and do the hard work to achieve something, then why shouldnt you be finacially rewarded...

If hippies want to get stoned and hug trees, then they should be content with living in mud huts and starving...

ditto, me too, well apart from the last bit. show me the money!!!!!!

[Fidgits]

I agree with whats been said...if someone has the guts to go out alone and form a company which turns into a respectable profitable business, that in turn produces a good product/service, then more power to them. Like Ian said, good luck tho them and they deserve all they get!

One thing in this country that really makes me mad is the people who do well are punished more (in terms of taxes and deductions). You work your life trying to achieve for yourself/family and improve your quality of life...and in turn your pay cheque gets slammed hard to provide the bone idle no hopers with cushy mobiles phones and free houses!! :tsktsk: :tsktsk: ...oh man don't get me started!! It's all wrong i'm affraid!!

yeah - thats the major thing that frustrates me in this country...

as someone said - the divide between the working and middle classes has never been smaller (the extremes at each end are the exceptions, but its back to the good old 80/20 rule - so were talking 80% of the population)

BUT - this is because in this country, as Neil says, those that work hard to achieve their goals are penalised even harder the more successful they are. And those that chose to do nothing are given more and more.

Its no wonder this once great nation, that drove the industrial revolution, that had some of the greatest inventors, the greatest engineers and buisness minds is slowly sinking into nothingness...

Where once you were rewarded for greatness, you are now penalised for it, and Labour has just quadrupled the amount of red tape you have to get through if your willing to give it a shot...

[terdancam]

oh and communism does work---look at the size of china and the projections of its global power by 2050. It is projected to overtake the US (businessweek online). Who says it don`t work? It ain`t pretty granted but its going stratoshperic!! :duh:

Communism does NOT work!!!!!

China is far from achieveing the equal distribution of goods etc that form the fundementals of Marxist-Lenninism/Communism. China was a dictatorship under the Chairman and is now an oligarchy. The reason for China's ever-growing economic (and therefore power) increase is one factor - resources. Both of material and people.

still called a communist government though by all rival countries, and from whos point of view are you saying it doesn`t work, and at what point to you define a dictatorship, by whose definition of absolute power?--and by that reasoning the oligarchy is applicable to many so called industrial democracies that have funds donated by corporations--political or financial power or both? How did a state dictated id card get approved, nobody voted for it apart from politicos who did not have that on their manifesto.

the problem with saying communism doesn`t work is the same as saying capitalism works......when historians look back on this age they will probably see that an amalgam of all philosophies is the way forward, as neither can claim oneupmanship, both have their faults and merits, and claiming capitalism works, well..............so does a nuke :duh: and thats fine for the people that own one, but not good for the people on the receiving end :D

[Fidgits]

"History is written by the winners"

[Lexmas]

oh and communism does work---look at the size of china and the projections of its global power by 2050. It is projected to overtake the US (businessweek online). Who says it don`t work? It ain`t pretty granted but its going stratoshperic!! :duh:

Communism does NOT work!!!!!

China is far from achieveing the equal distribution of goods etc that form the fundementals of Marxist-Lenninism/Communism. China was a dictatorship under the Chairman and is now an oligarchy. The reason for China's ever-growing economic (and therefore power) increase is one factor - resources. Both of material and people.

still called a communist government though by all rival countries, and from whos point of view are you saying it doesn`t work, and at what point to you define a dictatorship, by whose definition of absolute power?--and by that reasoning the oligarchy is applicable to many so called industrial democracies that have funds donated by corporations--political or financial power or both? How did a state dictated id card get approved, nobody voted for it apart from politicos who did not have that on their manifesto.

the problem with saying communism doesn`t work is the same as saying capitalism works......when historians look back on this age they will probably see that an amalgam of all philosophies is the way forward, as neither can claim oneupmanship, both have their faults and merits, and claiming capitalism works, well..............so does a nuke :duh: and thats fine for the people that own one, but not good for the people on the receiving end :D

We will agree to disagree then. Let's not start too much of an argument, I can feel my blood pressure rising as it is!

China operates under capitalist economic principles though. :winky:

[terdancam]

amen to that brother hippy/facist/commie/liberal/tory/marixist !!

and so to that end heres a kiss and a hug, and no doubt a mutual agreement that we`d all be far better off with me and you in charge-armed with really big sticks and no-nonsense attitudes....... :D

besides, i fully advocate setting up a M of DGS (ministry of damn good slappings), where the boys would be sent round to deal with most of societys problems,, :D

and the labour government still alludes to marxist agendas :winky: after all, why would they tax so much if that wasn`t the case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :D :tsktsk:

[Lexmas]

amen to that brother hippy/facist/commie/liberal/tory/marixist !!

and so to that end heres a kiss and a hug, and no doubt a mutual agreement that we`d all be far better off with me and you in charge-armed with really big sticks and no-nonsense attitudes....... :D

besides, i fully advocate setting up a M of DGS (ministry of damn good slappings), where the boys would be sent round to deal with most of societys problems,, :D

and the labour government still alludes to marxist agendas :winky: after all, why would they tax so much if that wasn`t the case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 :D :tsktsk:

Amen. :D