Turbo Vs. Super Charging

[affy141]

Right guys, i think the forum needs an up to date review of turbo and supercharged IS200's....everyone talks about em but i for one can't say i know much about em...so can we have some information up on here...be creative! power figures, when they kick in, general driving characteristics (over a standard IS?) fuel consumption, cost, and dare i say it...which is better, super or turbocharging?!

[affy141]

sorry, the title's supposed to say turbo vs super!!

[MrADeveci]

sorry, the title's supposed to say turbo vs super!!  

←

Changed for you ............

[Dave-Ellen]

I've had both & sell both :D

Turbo every time. Its quieter more tuneable and rarer.

The S/C was fine option IMHO but now its been overtaken.

If you want to get more than 240 bhp then a Turbo is the only route as the S/C cant make any more than that.

However the S/C is a 8 hour fitting where as the Turbo takes a wee bit longer

[Mr Singh]

I'd weigh up costs.

£2500 ish for a s/c

or

£5000 for a turbo?

I'd change the engine, simple As.

[janey]

I'd weigh up costs.

£2500 ish for a s/c

or

£5000 for a turbo?

I'd change the engine, simple As.

←

dont think that an engine swap would be too easy

or cheap

certainly not a straight swap !!

[Mr Singh]

1G-GTE or 1JZ-GTE. £1500 at the most from Dave? Seen him sell the 1G-GTE for £1100

Then whatever is in your budget on labour for fitting. I dare say, it shouldn't exceed more than £5k for turbo kit. Besides, engine swap offers nearly 300 ponys!

If labour was too much, i'd do it myself.

Just a suggestion, i know thats what I would do :)

[Gord]

Depends on what YOU want mate lots of power, turbo, new engine or just the odd 50 bhp form the supercharger :D

If you can get the time, get your self off to a meet and im sure someone will take/let you have a drive of both, then its up to yourself how much you wanting to spend :D

[Monster-Mat]

hmm lots of "just swap the engine" being banded about here

untill you actually undertake such a thing.....dont say anythiong.

the modern toyota/lexus electronics DO NOT allow for a simple swap...FACT

the multiplex systems are specifically designed to run the engine intended for that car.

having stripped just a few is200,s now lets look at some simple things....lets for example look at doing the 3s-ge swap

different engine ecu (plugs wired differently)

different main body ecu

different speedo cluster ecu

is200 has a different alarm ecu and control to the altezza.....if altezza is fitted with it

so straight away we can see the electrics are gonna be a piece of ***** to sort, ohh maybe a 10 min job with a soldering iron.........NOOOoooooo

to say that plopping in a 1g-gte is equally as easy, again ......NOOOooooo

the 1g-ge ecu expects to see.

signals back from the fly by wire throttle

signals back from the VVTI

signals back from the varible tract inlet controler

putting in a 1jz-gte requires the fitting, and mating to a gearbox and then all of the above simple little things to solve

so...engine swaps are not like the 80s were you would ditch your fiesta 1.1 and throw in an escort turbo engine, ........

regards supercharger, or turbo, well its all down to what you want

ive yet to see a turbo conversion done in this country thats running at FULL potential, and as of yet dont see it happeneing in the short turm

the only Succesfull engine swap so far, has been mine on the monster, where im running a reasonable 500+ ....the only other that i can see happening is the 3s-g(t)e swap im doing on the drift car..

so to sum up, untill others actually start doing succesful swaps, the im sorry but at this table theres only room for one to eat at the moment.

2 much talk...not enough action or proof, to many internet mechanics/technicians here

lots of love Mat

Edited November 20, 2005 by Monster-Mat

[Mr Singh]

Mat, it was merely a suggestion.

Never done engine conversion on any of my own cars. My friends have, having witnessed a S3 engine into a mk2 golf, that really put me off, 2 months of hell. Wasn't a simple engine swap at all... However he's a happy bunny now, and was worth all the agro.

[Monster-Mat]

am , wasnt directed at you, but a collective.

on re-reading it , i admit it does sound like im directing at you.

my gracious apologies

[Mr Singh]

No probs :)

On a side note, Nikko is very likely to do a 1JZ-GTE conversion now he's in the UK ;)

[legendswraith]

am , wasnt directed at you, but a collective.

on re-reading it , i admit it does sound like im directing at you.

my gracious apologies

←

to be honest i never think about the electrickery involved i tend to be straight up and up mech/tech so its a very valid point i do still remember straight engine swaps (does that mean i am knocking on especially as i remember the old AR50 AR80 trick)

So its certainly a good reminder unless someone can do a wi-fi engine mod :D

Personally in an ideal world i would go for a turbo engine fit if i had the money to throw at it so its basically have u got the money and time more than anything because lets face it we all want more power in a very Tim Allen way

[affy141]

so what would be the 0-60 be on a turbo'd is with, say 240bhp?

[Monster-Mat]

all depends on turbo sizing etc etc

and many other factors , different instalations give different power delivery.

and ultimatley down to whois driving.....

id say around 6-7 secs

Edited November 20, 2005 by Monster-Mat

[Kazi]

hmm lots of "just swap the engine" being banded about here

untill you actually undertake such a thing.....dont say anythiong.

the modern toyota/lexus electronics DO NOT allow for a simple swap...FACT

the multiplex systems are specifically designed to run the engine intended for that car.

having stripped just a few is200,s now lets look at some simple things....lets for example look at doing the 3s-ge swap

different engine ecu (plugs wired differently)

different main body ecu

different speedo cluster ecu

is200 has a different alarm ecu and control to the altezza.....if altezza is fitted with it

so straight away we can see the electrics are gonna be a piece of ***** to sort, ohh maybe a 10 min job with a soldering iron.........NOOOoooooo

to say that plopping in a 1g-gte is equally as easy, again ......NOOOooooo

the 1g-ge ecu expects to see.

signals back from the fly by wire throttle

signals back from the VVTI

signals back from the varible tract inlet controler

putting in a 1jz-gte requires the fitting, and mating to a gearbox and then all of the above simple little things to solve

so...engine swaps are not like the 80s were you would ditch your fiesta 1.1 and throw in an escort turbo engine, ........

regards supercharger, or turbo, well its all down to what you want

ive yet to see a turbo conversion done in this country thats running at FULL potential, and as of yet dont see it happeneing in the short turm

the only Succesfull engine swap so far, has been mine on the monster, where im running a reasonable 500+ ....the only other that i can see happening is the 3s-g(t)e swap im doing on the drift car..

so to sum up, untill others actually start doing succesful swaps, the im sorry but at this table theres only room for one to eat at the moment.

2 much talk...not enough action or proof, to many internet mechanics/technicians here

lots of love Mat

←

You make it sound like a difficult job................

[grafter]

Sorry to but in lads but im also very interested the this topic. Have been in touch with Prolex recently about the various offerings to gain power, and if all goes well (i know its abit extreme but what the hell!), I'l be selling the house and making a trip up for them to do the work. So keep it coming lads :D

[affy141]

If i remember correctly, power on an is300 is 218bhp, a s'charged pumps out 240-ish, but u have to wait for it to spool up...so what would be "faster" out of the two...or would there be little difference...?

[Monster-Mat]

superchargers dont spool up.

superchargers are directly driven by the engine, by either a shaft or belt.

[gsportcars]

is300 is 211bhp and the s/c is200 is 201bhp.

And as Matt says the power from the s/c is there from the word go!!!!!

Would rather have a turbo though in any case!!!!! :D

[legendswraith]

is300 is 211bhp and the s/c is200 is 201bhp.

And as Matt says the power from the s/c is there from the word go!!!!!

Would rather have a turbo though in any case!!!!! :D

←

I knew i should have has a cold air unit from the engine cooling system away they are similar to a turbo but pump out something like 10000 cubic feet of very cold air a minute now who would be brave enough to slap that on :D

Is it a good time to mention uprated internals with a turbo though as with standard you can only pump so much boost through the engine and the more boost you give it the faster its going to go which on a non turbo to turbo car means playing with compression ratios too as (if i don't have it backwards) due to the greater amount of air going in via a turbo the engine needs to have a lower compression ratio (8:1 over 10:1?)

Also with the S/C's couldn't you mess around with the pulley sizes to squeeze a bit more power?

[SpOcK]

Is it a good time to mention uprated internals with a turbo though as with standard you can only pump so much boost through the engine and the more boost you give it the faster its going to go which on a non turbo to turbo car means playing with compression ratios too as (if i don't have it backwards) due to the greater amount of air going in via a turbo the engine needs to have a lower compression ratio (8:1 over 10:1?)

The need to lower the compression ratio when turboing a N/A car becomes from the fact, that when the engine is given more air (and more fuel), there's a greater amount of exploding mixture in the same given space (cylinder), and when it is compressed the same as the lesser amount before, it has a tendency to self-ignite. This results in "premature burning", which means that the burning mixture hits the pistons when it's still on its way to TDC, which means detonation, which means death to std internals.

One can upgrade to "turbo-grade/forged" internals (or better yet, it's advisable), but there's other things too to do to prevent detonation. One is, that N/A cars have quite an aggressive ignition timing, so that should be retarded. Factory ECU not being tuneable, it should be done with either "piggy-back" ECU, or stand-alone ECU.

Still one way to prevent detonation is to lower the intake air temperature. Relocate the air filter to get colder air, get it heat shielded, install (bigger) intercooler, and/or use waterspray into the intake to further decrease the intake air temperature and to prevent detonation.

So turbo/turbo'd car doesn't actually DEMAND lower compression ratio, it's just one way to prevent the detonation. Audi for example has made turbo engines running ~10:1 compression ratio and still with ~2bar of boost. But as I said, detonation can be mastered by other means, as well. Hope this helps.

#Sami

[SpOcK]

And oh, having tried both, I'd choose turbo over S/C anytime... ;)

[marcus]

I would have to say turbo :D

I started thinking about fitting a Turbo to my IS last year........and i asked alot before i went and done it! ;)

I did not go out and get a Turbo kit for my IS, i made the Turbo Kit up! buy doing this i could pick the bits that i wanted for my turbo "ie" HKS BOV, JDM/wastegate, Greddy E-manage and so on.........

The only thing that was a bit over sized was the Turbo i picked, but i new this..........untill i get "forged internals" and lower compression ratio, then and only then will this Turbo be at its best, only time will tell.........this is all being done over the winter months :winky:

when i fitted my Turbo i had it on a rolling road 3 weeks later and at .4 boost i had 198 RWHP .............that was back may!.....but i have had some ups & downs with it as i have not had it maped.... ;)

But the meet i went to at janspeed, rolling road day! i was boosting .55 and i only got 152 RWHP so some thing is up some where.......all we know is the fueling needs to be upgrade as the injectors start to max out at .4/5 + i need to get it maped (yes i know it should be done)

I will be doing alot to the car over the comeing months, to try and get it all done for the 1st Jap/meet next year :D

so as to your Turbo is the only way to go

[Monster-Mat]

I would have to say turbo  :D

I started thinking about fitting a Turbo to my IS last year........and i asked  alot before i went and done it! ;) 

←

and i think u have done a great job