Should We Adapt The Euro?

[lexicon]

but at the end of the day UK will have to join at some stage in the future.

Why do we HAVE to join? says who?

I vote we get out of the corrupt, ill conceived mess which is the EU altogether ....

Why couldn't they just leave it as a 'common market'

At least that was a half sensible idea .....

There's too many jobs for the boys riding this particular rich gravy train for any sense to come of it now.

Agree wholeheartedly with TG.

Single currency is all well and good, but we don't have a single economy to go with it

[tdiplc]

Yep clear example of the European regulation, France didn't want to have back the Brit beef after the Foot desease (not only self interest), we will have it back.

Doesn't know about the world but Europe seems to go that way.

It's not an optimist way of looking things, but knowing States and Asia, going there often for work, we really had to get stronger to face them.

[The bottom line is that the British do not care about the French or some of the other EC Countries, and they do not care about us.

Some of the ridiculous directives coming out of Brussells are designed solely to reduce our competitiveness and make us as lazy and inefficient as a lot of the other EC countries. Other directives are there to justify the existance Brussells.]

And they are applied, do you really think we're getting lasier and inneficient? we're just passing through an adaptation period.

It's easy to pin point the bad things. I will definitly apply for Euro & Europe.

[i think we are being railroaded - and it stinks]

Would say that each country is railroaded if it's stay alone, but it's only my personal point of vue

I don't think that the EC will ever work properly because of the self interest of the member countires - which is what the politicians were voted in for.

I don't think that there will ever be price parity in the member countires when you can't even get parity in different regions of one country. I would like to pay the same for my house and groceries as a guy in North Yorkshire.

I think that the reason that Asia threatens Europe economically is because their cost base is much lower, just like ours was before we joined the EC. The reason the US is strong and is a threat is becuase of their protectionist policies - they are doing what their voters want them to do - they don't care about us.

The EC Working time directive is an undisguised attack on our working way of life, to reduce our efficiency and make us less competitive.

And I doubt whether ther would be the queue of human vermin in Calais waiting to invade our shores if the Euro Tunnell wasn't there, and if we didn't have the outrageously unfair immigration policies rammed down our throats by Brussells.

I think we have been lied to from day 1 by Ted Heath and all the subsequent politicians that have made personal gains from this traitorous deal.

It's not looking good

[Monster-Mat]

Vince,ive l;ived and worked in Germany for 13 years,ive seen what reunification has done.......and ive certainly see what the euro has done........i know the general thoughts by many german ppl,i watch german tv and read german papers and the majority of germans now wish they never joined.....as do the dutch

im not talking from hearsay..like you i live in euro land.....and it stinks

[vince-com]

Different point of vues, I work often with german and dutch, selling my goods there, I've got euro talking with them, without much complain about it, except as all the majority of people, the need to adapt to it. Not talking about Hearsay but working with it, just remember my location, I'm a frog eater, we're not complaining much around here.

When you talk about parity, c'mon how can a german thing could have the same price in Spain, and the reverse, parity is for money, not for goods. don't mess everything. Would be logical that a house in London should have a different price in Inverness for the same square feet superficy, even if the price is in euro, no?

Parity will come surely about taxes, laws, regulations.

Strange to see how the information is different from a side to another.

Tdiplc, you talk about Immigraton policie from Brussels, GB just change the law, canceling the right for an immigrant to work during he 's waiting for a work permit.

This people are all dreaming to go to England, strange knowing that in France without a work permit, you can't work (logical), Why do you think all that people are dreaming about England?

About mass markets, let them to Asia and point for european quality, that's what we have to defend and fight for, we've got technologies, they've got hands to produce.

In a way the Britanic example is a good way to follow, adjusting it a bit, I would love to have less unployement taxes and paying less taxes on my society, but even before it was impossible to have the price around asia in GB, except for the Irish…but they already applied for the Euro. A good article on that is in french but quiet funny :

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/reseau/monde/011...1120051298.html

About US politic, that's maybe one of the major reason we should apply for it having the euro, I don't want anymore being railroaded by americans…I definitly don't want of the Bush strong policy.

Anyway thanks, we've got different feeling about it and different people claming about it, could talk and give examples from a side to another one without going much longer.

Will see in a few years but I bet a couple of beers that what will result be good.

[Monster-Mat]

Only if the beers STELLA ........At least thats one nice thing from Belgium..

notice how no one ever talks about Belgium?

[TonyGoose]

But we have nothing to worry about ....

We have a referendum to decide if we have euro or pound.

Now just watch us vote for the pound .....

So we'll have another referendum, and another, and another ....

and keep having them until president bLIAR gets his way ..

Democracy my fat hairy butt

[vince-com]

LOL, Mat ok for a belgium beer :o)

a DU CHATEAUX if you want

and Happy birthday :P

[OzAristoV300]

Why an Aussie would want to weigh into this debate is pretty bizarre but, hey:

-I drive a Lexus

-I'm a member of this club

-I've drunk Belgian Beer

-I've been to England, Spain, Italy, Switzerland and Malta

-Australia is kickin' England's butt in the cricket

Oh yeah, I'm also doing my MBA and just got a HD for a paper on the Euro and the EMU in macroeconomics. Woohoo.

Short Version: It's not the Euro. It's the loss of control of monetary policy that's the problem. That and deflationary effects. Ala Germany.

Long version: Email me for a copy of my paper. Warning: Do not operate machinery when reading. Can cause extreme drowsiness.

[tdiplc]

For my 2p I think the whole European thing is bad news and will end in tears - and we should leave them to it.

I think that France is a beautiful place and the French (except for Parisiens :P ) are very nice people, and of course Belgian beer is exceptional. I say lets keep the inividual national identities and give the Eurocrats the finger.

[javadude]

This site is useful for pro-sterling evidence/reasoning... http://www.no-euro.com/

[dazzab69]

Time for my 2p worth (soon to be 2c worth ?). I'm another of the few in the pro camp.

The whole European project was set up in the first place to make it "materially impossible" for France and Germany to go to war again. This was gradually extended from being just about Coal and Steel and France and Germany to include most of the main Western European countries in a Common Market to enable trading between those countries.

After much procrastination Britain joined the EEC around ten years too late and on much less favourable terms than we would have received when we were originally invited.

The Maastricht Agreement, which was signed by the very Right-wing and Anti-European Conservative Government, actaully spelt out how the Union was to be formed and advanced through the construction of a single economy and a single currency and used the words "ever closer Union".

The benefits of the whole project are as follows:

1 A war between EU members really has become unthinkeable, for the first time in three thousand years.

2 You can now buy produce in your local supermarket from all over the EU and at reasonable(ish) prices.

3 You can go and work anywhere in the EU if you so wish.

4 At a time when our country has slid steadily into economic decline from 1914 onwards, access to the European Markets has helped secure £ Billions of inward investment from the US and Japan during the last 25 years. This will decline if we continue to sit in the kitchen at the Euro party.

5 Being part of a large political grouing like the EU gives us global clout. The USA would stomp all over our imports if it wasn't scared of EU retaliation and the Euro itself will allow our economy to be more stable in times of market induced currency fluctuations.

6 Prices will equalise, car price harmonisation is happening, albeit slowly, but when you can walk into Lexus Calais and make a huge saving, the pressure on the dealers here to drop prices is immense.

As for being "ruled" by Brussels, the project potentially gives us the opportunity to be more free and democratic. We can actually shape these new institutions into a 21st Century form of Government. Besides which, what is the difference between being "ruled" by a bunch of Jocks and Islington lovies (Labour) as opposed to a bunch of cruel, bigoted, insular blue-rinsers (Tories) or a bunch of snail-eating, wine-drinking Eurocrats. At the end of the day the only time they care about you is election day.

The recently adopted social chapter and Human Rights Act finally guaranteed your rights as a citizen. Also the Working Time Directive does not make us less efficient or less free, it prevents unscrupulous employees from forcing people to work very long hours against their wishes. If you are stupid enough to want to work 80 hour weeks you can.

Blimey that was a bit of a rant, I'll sign off expecting lots of flames, by saying that Britain in the last few hundred years has always ended up doing the inevitable too late and that the Euro will probably be another example.

[Brian Berry]

I agree with Vince. we cannot remain insular but must think of ourselves as Europeans. The quicker we get the Euro the better it will be to adapt. THIS WILL BE PROGRESS!

[dazzab69]

There's a big article in Autocar this week about the British car industry and how we've never made more cars in our history. BUT they make the point loud and clear that this will disappear again if we don't join the Euro in the near future.

Apparently Honda have already canned plans to make the Jazz in England because of the unfavourable exchange rates.

[tdiplc]

The whole European project was set up in the first place to make it "materially impossible" for France and Germany to go to war again. This was gradually extended from being just about Coal and Steel and France and Germany to include most of the main Western European countries in a Common Market to enable trading between those countries.

After much procrastination Britain joined the EEC around ten years too late and on much less favourable terms than we would have received when we were originally invited.

The Maastricht Agreement, which was signed by the very Right-wing and Anti-European Conservative Government, actaully spelt out how the Union was to be formed and advanced through the construction of a single economy and a single currency and used the words "ever closer Union".

The benefits of the whole project are as follows:

1 A war between EU members really has become unthinkeable, for the first time in three thousand years.

2 You can now buy produce in your local supermarket from all over the EU and at reasonable(ish) prices.

3 You can go and work anywhere in the EU if you so wish.

4 At a time when our country has slid steadily into economic decline from 1914 onwards, access to the European Markets has helped secure £ Billions of inward investment from the US and Japan during the last 25 years. This will decline if we continue to sit in the kitchen at the Euro party.

5 Being part of a large political grouing like the EU gives us global clout. The USA would stomp all over our imports if it wasn't scared of EU retaliation and the Euro itself will allow our economy to be more stable in times of market induced currency fluctuations.

6 Prices will equalise, car price harmonisation is happening, albeit slowly, but when you can walk into Lexus Calais and make a huge saving, the pressure on the dealers here to drop prices is immense.

As for being "ruled" by Brussels, the project potentially gives us the opportunity to be more free and democratic. We can actually shape these new institutions into a 21st Century form of Government. Besides which, what is the difference between being "ruled" by a bunch of Jocks and Islington lovies (Labour) as opposed to a bunch of cruel, bigoted, insular blue-rinsers (Tories) or a bunch of snail-eating, wine-drinking Eurocrats. At the end of the day the only time they care about you is election day.

The recently adopted social chapter and Human Rights Act finally guaranteed your rights as a citizen. Also the Working Time Directive does not make us less efficient or less free, it prevents unscrupulous employees from forcing people to work very long hours against their wishes. If you are stupid enough to want to work 80 hour weeks you can.

Blimey that was a bit of a rant, I'll sign off expecting lots of flames, by saying that Britain in the last few hundred years has always ended up doing the inevitable too late and that the Euro will probably be another example.

I don't think I'm 100% with you on that.

There will never be harmony in the EC becuase of the self interest of the individual countries- which is right and fair in my view. Look at the French and their arrogant policies of self importance and disregard to EC law.

We were sold a lie when we went into the "Common Market". We were told that it would be good for trade and jobs. We were not told about the loss of sovereignty, our laws or our money.

I do not see how we can have joined too late. Compare our economy to that of Germany or France who were the first to join. Who is doing better - we are - and they hate it, which is why they want to make us like them.

1) War is entirely conceivable, especially when the good citizens of Europe wake up and see what is happening to their countries.

2) You can but food from all over the world. You don't need to be in the EC for that.

3) You can go and work anywhere in the world. You don't need to be in the EC for that.

4) We have been booming whilst Germany and the rest of them are suffering, so how can you say that being in the EC is good for the economy?

5) Partly true, but as soon as we join the Euro (which we will) we will be totally stuffed through no fault of our own as soon as the currency falls, instead of the Pound being able to stand on it's own merits and pitfalls.

6) Prices will never stabilize because my house costs more than a farmers house in the middle of Greece. Being able to buy your Lexus cheaper in Calais is a wonderous thing, but my concern is about the knock on implications for this economy.

The bottom line is that we are now ruled by Brussells, who we did not elect and cannot get rid of. That is not freedom - that is incarceration. At least we can get rid of Blair. That's the difference.

That yummy human rights act is fantastic - it gives the right to murders, kiddy fiddlers - you name it, to appeal about their treatment and conviction. That just what we need - more compensation and freedom to the vermin of the world - thank you very much Brussels.

If you think you are being exploited by working 80 hours a week - change your job.

Rant over - phew!!

[dazzab69]

Sorry tdiplc the whole sovereignty argument is BS. It is a knee-***** argument made by idiots for the consumption of idiots.

The same people have ruled Britain for a thousand years (with a brief interruption courtesy of Mr Cromwell). The Public School educated Civil "Servants" of the ruling class in Britain are the ones who run the country in partnership with the media barons and big business. The Sun tells the morons to vote Tory and they do. Then the Sun says vote for Tony and they do that too. All you get to do is change the colour of the backdrop.

I'd rather be "ruled" as you put it by Brussels than by the shadowy men of Whitehall and big Business because it is transparent. Why do you think that Murdoch hates the EU and the Euro so much ? Because it reduces his power.

Of course there won't be harmony in the EU, but where is the harmony in the UK. Most of the population of three of the member countries would like to be independent and the north of England might as well be on a different planet as far as Islington is concerned.

The simple answer is that some things are done better on a huge scale (the economy, defence, big infrastructure projects) and some things are better handled at a very local level (education, housing, local transport).

A war between EU nations will never happen again because we are beyond wars between major powers. The armed forces are becoming increasingly interdependent and the rest of Europe actually learnt the lesson of WWII, that in reality modern war solves nothing.

As for being able to work anywhere in the world, that is also rubbish. You try getting a green card for the US or Australia. I probably could because I work in an "in demand" industry, but your average joe would struggle.

Also on our economy booming, where exactly ? Industry is now in dire-straits again (even the city firms around me are making redundancies), but we can't help them out with lower interest rates because house-prices in London and the SE would get even madder.

I also fail to understand this emotional attachment to the pound. What influence do you currently have on Interest Rates ? Are you a member of the Bank of England committee ? If not then you have no influence and there is no guarantee that any decision would be in your favour. The key brief of an Independent Central Bank (such as the BoE and the ECB) is to protect the currency that they manage. This means high interest rates if they deem it necessary. Therefore why does it matter whether this decision is taken in London or Frankfurt.

The great European experiment is not perfect, but it is evolving. What is Westminster doing ? We've scrapped the House of Lords and replaced it with Tony's cronies, we have the Scots voting on issues in England and Wales when we have no say on the same issues in Scotland now. As for NI, what a mess.

I think that generally the key members of the EU (France, Germany, and the Benelux countries) have a better quality of life/standard of living because they are better at running their countries to the benefit of the people and not the minorities at either end of the social specturm.

I believe that the European Union is our future because if the jokers responsible for the Millennium Dome, the non-existent Wembley Stadium, the endlessly delayed Channel Tunnel rail link, the motorway system and our shambles of a health service are all we have to hope for, then we are truly scr3w3d as a nation and I for one would be looking for a green card.

[tdiplc]

Hello Mr dazzab69

Maybe you are right and I am an idiot, or maybe you are wrong - no doubt we will find out sooner or later.

There is no doubt that our economy is stronger than Germany or France at the moment, but this will not be allowed when we join the Euro becuase we will no longer have control.

Brussels in totally opaque - there is no tranparency. You may have heard of the several corruption charges against those in control. What happens if you don't like they way they are governing us - nothing - tough luck - there is nothing you can do.

You may have seen my thread about our glorious leader. In my view they are treacherous, incompetant criminals. But at least they can be voted out.

You may have seen Der Bilt recently - there is a growing belief in Germany that Churchill should be hailed as a war criminal - more self interest and no harmony there.

One of the things I have learnt in my many years in business is that there should always be a get out possibility if you don't like what you get into. I am not aware of any get out possibility for the EC or the Euro.

What about Gordon Browns ecomomic tests? These tests have not been met yet, so how do we know that they will stay met after we join? - we don't.

I agree that it is easier to work in Europe than the rest of the world, but it is still possible. I personally would make it harder for foreign nationals to come here - but we can't now because of Brussels.

Personally I do not have any emotional attachment to the Pound, but I do have an objection to being railroaded into something I see as very bad and irreversable.

I think I'll join you with my green card - don't forget to turn the light off :)

[dazzab69]

Sorry tdiplc, I didn't intend to call you an idiot.

I agree Brussels should become more democratic (hopefully that word has been too badly sullied by George Dubbya), but weirdly giving us more direct control will probably require our national Governments to relinquish a bit more power. And there is undoubtly corruption, but it does get investigated unlike here, where the Government ignores scandals like the Ecclestone donations.

See your point on the tests, though I suppose that any test like that can only ever be right at a point in time and then could go either way depending on circumstances. I actually think that the tests are a political device which will be used to justify what is basically a political decision that could be taken at any time (if they had the bottle).

I hadn't heard the Churchill-"war criminal" accusations and I'll grant you that its not very constructive of them or even relevant (what are they going to do sue him !).

I'm not sure you will be railroaded into the Euro, a few years ago I thought that public opinion would swing behind it when we saw it working, but the world economy problems seem to be hampering the transition period and any obvious benefits may be a few years off yet. I think any vote will be very very close.