Problems With Suppliers

[Nikki]

Just read with interest, the now 'locked' posting, My Un-Acceptable Experience on the problems encountered with Altezza Sports & Prestige, Warrington.

I recently ordered a set of TODA Racing pistons from Scott at a cost of £700. I had them installed and within a matter of days one of the pistons has failed in the bore and cracked, therefore it has released the circlip and pushed the gudgeon pin out causing the gudgeon pin to score the bore beyond any repair. I have now had to remove my engine and source a replacement at a further cost of over £750 not to mention the labour charge. I have also had to buy myself a little second hand run about as the car is still not back on the road at another cost of £400.

I know the product failure cannot be blamed on Scott at Altezza Sports & Prestige but upon contacting him to discuss the problem he has agreed completely with me that it sounds like product failure but has done absolutely nothing to help me sort this out. He has told me to contact Toda in Japan and resolve the matter direct, he has also given me the number of his contact in Hong Kong who he purchased the pistons from to ask him to sort it out. He has taken no responsiblity whatsoever to try to resolve this matter.

I have now taken legal advice and wrote a firm but pleasant email to scott asking him, as the Vendor, to sort this out for me. To which he has still not replied, email was sent 12th July!!!

Scott has taken my £700 but the product is obviously not up to standard. Wonder how he would feel if it was the other way around?

As we use the Altezza on a daily basis, i.e. shipping the kids back and to from school, using it for work, shopping, etc., you can understand how frustrating and upsetting this has been. I have a £8k+ vehicle that I have to insure and pay out for and am unable to use it.

I promised myself I wouldn't put a posting on here to slag anyone down but after reading other people's experiences I thought it only fair to let everyone know. I wouldn't want anyone else shelling out money and then having no back-up service when things go wrong.

I will get my money back for this one way or another but it's the stress and upset it has caused in the meantime that cannot be rectified. My husband and I have had countless arguments about this, as financially we are now approximately £2,000 down!!!!

Nikki Turner

PS - not sure how to post pics on here but if anyone wants to see the damage caused you can PM me for the pics to be emailed.

[Mr Singh]

Hi Nikki,

Sorry to hear about the problems your having.

IF you would like pics hosted send them to me - am(at)bladeice.com i will happily upload them.

BTW, Toda pistons.... you running boost then? i assume you installed those to increase boost output?

Cheers.

[Nikki]

Hi Nikki,

BTW, Toda pistons.... you running boost then? i assume you installed those to increase boost output?

Cheers.

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I have the Blitz Supercharger fitted, hence the recommendation for upgraded pistons. Laugh of it is though I've never run the supercharger since it was fitted on 1st May this year cos the car has been off the road since then, so there's another £2,500 spent!!!

I'll email u the pics now.

Thanks for your help

Nikki

[Monster-Mat]

sorry to hear this Nikki, TODA are a very good brand, and im supprided to hear that one of there products failed, i hope you sort this out, however, ALL toda will say is who supplied, and who fitted the parts.

who did fit the parts?

could it not be the case that the circlip and gudgeon parted, causing the scoring, and then the cracking of the piston.

im afraid but i feel your pistons have been installed badly, and its not a case of the parts failing.

i am not sticking up for scott, he certainly has a duty of responsability in this case, but i am trying to show you there are possible other cold facts that will need exploring.

[andrewxsi]

Why do you all want to go faster and faster?bet you wish you left the engine alone now.

i might be slow but i get there.

[Mr Singh]

Here are the Pic's from Nikki's car/Engine.

BTW, who installed these?

[Nikki]

sorry to hear this Nikki, TODA are a very good brand, and im supprided to hear that one of there products failed, i hope you sort this out, however, ALL toda will say is who supplied, and who fitted the parts.

who did fit the parts?

could it not be the case that the circlip and gudgeon parted, causing the scoring, and then the cracking of the piston.

im afraid but i feel your pistons have been installed badly, and its not a case of the parts failing.

i am not sticking up for scott, he certainly has a duty of responsability in this case, but i am trying to show you there are possible other cold facts that will need exploring.

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I fully agree with you that it could of been incorrect installation, therefore I have had a metalagist 'think that's how you spell it' take a look at the piston and he is of the opinion that there was a hair line crack within the metal that could not of been seen with the naked eye and this has therefore had strain put upon it when the piston was in use within the engine.

I am sending the piston off to a laboratory to have a report written on it so I have the evidence in writing to proceed further with this but again all this is at a cost to myself!

[Mr Singh]

Why do you all want to go faster and faster?bet you wish you left the engine alone now.

i might be slow but i get there.

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I bet they wish they left it it alone....

But you WOULD want to go faster if you felt the power...

You'd make use of your rear wing too :P

[Nikki]

Why do you all want to go faster and faster?bet you wish you left the engine alone now.

i might be slow but i get there.

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I bet they wish they left it it alone....

But you WOULD want to go faster if you felt the power...

You'd make use of your rear wing too :P

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You are right, with hindsight, I wish I had left well alone but at the end of the day there are a lot of people on here who have done exactly the same thing and not even with racing pistons and had no problems.

[Monster-Mat]

if that crack is only at one end of the piston, im afraid i back up what ive already said, in thet the gudgeon pin started to "walk" from its seat because the circlip came of, as a result the end of the pin hit the side of the cylinder wall, more than likely catching the casting at the skirt of the cylinder, and thereby forcing the pin downwards and cracking the piston.

if you agree it could be faulty instalation, proving there was an invisable crack will do nothing, the piston failed, because of faulty instalation, a cast product, such as a piston , can be allowed to have minor stress lines within. the crucial parts obviously less...but they all have them

i think your initial gripe is with the installer.......then the manufacturer VIA the supplier.

however DONT let the installer fob you off with it must be a manufacturing fault......i strongly doubt it is, and if your prepared to spend so much money trying to prove it is a manufacturing defect, ..............what makes you sure it is.

who fitted them?

[Mr Singh]

Indeed.

I am with Mat, i'd question the installation of the pistons..

Where the rings supplied with them?

[Sirnixalot]

Why do you all want to go faster and faster?bet you wish you left the engine alone now.

i might be slow but i get there.

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I suppose you wouldnt have appreciated if you posted up about your rather large spoiler breaking off when you hit a staggering 25mph and someone posted "why did you put the damn thing on in the first place, its hideous. I may look slow but at least i get there"

I'm not her to turn this into a slow car vs real car fight, this is about her pistons/engine.

To be honest i dont see you getting a bad batch of pistons from Toda but its not impossible. There are too many variables to just single out the pistons. What about intallation? You can have the best parts in the world but if they are installed wrong then they will do no good.

What cause those deep scrapes? The piston rings look ok to me? Did the piston rotate freely when it was installed on the rod?

After having a few of my mechanic friends take a look at those pix i was asked this

"That looks like the piston was too large for the bore. Did they have the block honed/bored for the pistons? What was the specified bore on the pistons....an 86.5mm piston forced into an 86mm bore would deffinately cause this. Its either that or a manufacturing defect in the pistons themselves."

Good call on the wrist pin Mat, i didnt think of that. I should have shown my friends the bore pix :shutit:

Hope you get it sorted

[Monster-Mat]

To be honest i dont see you getting a bad batch of pistons from Toda but its not impossible.  There are too many variables to just single out the pistons.  What about intallation?  You can have the best parts in the world but if they are installed wrong then they will do no good.

What cause those deep scrapes?  The piston rings look ok to me?  Did the piston rotate freely when it was installed on the rod? 

After having a few of my mechanic friends take a look at those pix i was asked this

"That looks like the piston was too large for the bore.  Did they have the block honed/bored for the pistons?  What was the specified bore on the pistons....an 86.5mm piston forced into an 86mm bore would deffinately cause this.  Its either that or a manufacturing defect in the pistons themselves."

Hope you get it sorted

the gudgeon pin, caused the cylinder marks

[Sirnixalot]

the gudgeon pin, caused the cylinder marks

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edited my post above but ive sent the cylinder wall pix to my friend just now, he agrees with you on the wrist pin falling out. It points toward installation.

[Kazi]

Why do you all want to go faster and faster?bet you wish you left the engine alone now.

i might be slow but i get there.

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I bet they wish they left it it alone....

But you WOULD want to go faster if you felt the power...

You'd make use of your rear wing too :P

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Rear wing? More like a shopping trolley handle!! Lol. Nikki, sounds like you have had a real bad experience, hope you get it sorted.

[Nikki]

the gudgeon pin, caused the cylinder marks

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edited my post above but ive sent the cylinder wall pix to my friend just now, he agrees with you on the wrist pin falling out. It points toward installation.

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I did have them fitted by a very reputable garage who mainly deal with Subarus but definitely know their stuff. I'm not prepared to name them on here as this post wasn't to slag anyone off but to merely point out that i have received no after care sales services from Altezza Sports after asking him to help me.

I wouldn't be even going down the line of product failure if all evidence wasn't pointing to that. Like I said previously the piston is going off to a lab for testing and they have assured me they will be able to report for definite if the metal was defective before installation. Don't ask me how they do it, I don't know but that's there job not mine.

Also, the pistons were ordered from Toda/A N Other by Altezza Sports in accordance with the engine specification so they were the correct size etc. The piston rings, circlips and pins were all supplied with the pistons.

[andrewxsi]

I DONT CARE IF ITS HIDEOUS, I CAN REMOVE IT ANYTIME. AINT HALF AS HIDEOUS AS SPENDING 3K ON AN ENGINE MOD AND BUYING A USED CAR TO GET AROUND IN.

I YOU WANT POWER WHY NOT BUY AN EVO V1 AS LEAST THEY LOOK FAST.

ANYWAY I HOPE YOU GET YOUR ENGINE FIXED SOON AND MANNAGE TO GET SOME COMPENSATION SORTED OUT FOR YOUR TROUBLES, ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

SCOTT AT ALTEZZA SHOULD HAVE CONTACTED YOU ALSO.

ANDREW WITH THAT HIDEOUS REAR SPOILER ON THE STANDARD LEXUS THAT GOES TO FRANCE EVERY MONTH FROM FIFE, SCOTLAND.

[Monster-Mat]

nikki your missing very valuble points in my posts.....which i need to know to be able to help you

pistons, especially cast pistons WILL have microscopic fractures in the metal....please could you answer the questions i asked in the previous post

is the fracture only at one end of the piston...i think it is.

which proves what i and everyone else is saying......

[Nikki]

I DONT CARE IF ITS HIDEOUS, I CAN REMOVE IT ANYTIME. AINT HALF AS HIDEOUS AS SPENDING 3K ON AN ENGINE MOD AND BUYING A USED CAR TO GET AROUND IN.

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Andrew, I'm sorry if somebody has upset you on this post about your spoiler. I don't think it was meant like that.

I totally agree that it's hideous that i've spent so much money on my car to make it go faster but I don't drink or smoke and my car is my hobby. I also didn't intend to buy a used car to get around in. Don't you think it kills me to see a beautiful white Altezza sat in the bloody garage and not be able to drive it. I know it's down to me the situation i'm in but believe me this hurts me more than you will ever realise.

Also, if it helps - I have a big spoiler on the boot of mine - LOL!

[Monster-Mat]

I DONT CARE IF ITS HIDEOUS, I CAN REMOVE IT ANYTIME. AINT HALF AS HIDEOUS AS SPENDING 3K ON AN ENGINE MOD AND BUYING A USED CAR TO GET AROUND IN.

I YOU WANT POWER WHY NOT BUY AN EVO V1 AS LEAST THEY LOOK FAST.

ANYWAY I HOPE YOU GET YOUR ENGINE FIXED SOON AND MANNAGE TO GET SOME COMPENSATION SORTED OUT FOR YOUR TROUBLES, ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

SCOTT AT ALTEZZA SHOULD HAVE CONTACTED YOU ALSO.

ANDREW WITH THAT HIDEOUS REAR SPOILER ON THE STANDARD LEXUS THAT GOES TO FRANCE EVERY MONTH FROM FIFE, SCOTLAND.

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you shouldnt have started it then....the topic wasnt about whether Nikki should have spent the money or not

[Chris.S]

I DONT CARE IF ITS HIDEOUS, I CAN REMOVE IT ANYTIME. AINT HALF AS HIDEOUS AS SPENDING 3K ON AN ENGINE MOD AND BUYING A USED CAR TO GET AROUND IN.

I YOU WANT POWER WHY NOT BUY AN EVO V1 AS LEAST THEY LOOK FAST.

ANYWAY I HOPE YOU GET YOUR ENGINE FIXED SOON AND MANNAGE TO GET SOME COMPENSATION SORTED OUT FOR YOUR TROUBLES, ITS NOT YOUR FAULT.

SCOTT AT ALTEZZA SHOULD HAVE CONTACTED YOU ALSO.

ANDREW WITH THAT HIDEOUS REAR SPOILER ON THE STANDARD LEXUS THAT GOES TO FRANCE EVERY MONTH FROM FIFE, SCOTLAND.

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there's no need to shout

[MacRS200]

Hmm

I am sure that all pistons go throught NDT before being shipped out by Toda, but that does not rule out a failure.

Also having examined the pics it looks like the cylinder has been honed as it has circular marks around the bore and no evidence of vertical markings you would expect to see.

The scores on the bore from the gudgeon pin appear to go all the way to the top of the liner, bit odd.

The crack in the piston appears to have originated from the skirt and not the gidgeon pin hole as it is wider there.

The crack is very small, if at all existant, at the circumference of the gudgeon pin hole so I find it hard to envisage that it opened enough to allow the circlip to fall out. If it had I think that the piston would have separated along the crack line.

In short I agree with most on here that it was bad installation I'm afraid.

[Nikki]

nikki your missing very valuble points in my posts.....which i need to know to be able to help you

pistons, especially cast pistons WILL have microscopic fractures in the metal....please could you answer the questions i asked in the previous post

is the fracture only at one end of the piston...i think it is.

which proves what i and everyone else is saying......

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The fracture goes straight across the whole of the side of the piston - on the opposite side of the hole from the crack there is a hair line crack in the metal - it's very difficult to thoroughly explain it on here and even more difficult to get any decent photos.

The other side of the piston is fine - no cracks but then again the circlip is still in situ.

[Monster-Mat]

The fracture goes straight across the whole of the side of the piston - on the opposite side of the hole from the crack there is a hair line crack in the metal - it's very difficult to thoroughly explain it on here and even more difficult to get any decent photos.

The other side of the piston is fine - no cracks but then again the circlip is still in situ.

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which goes back to prove what has already been said....thats it is the pin catching the cylinder thats caused the fail...not the piston failing and releasing the pin

which points to bad instalation

[MacRS200]

To add a bit more. Say the Gudgeon pin is 15mm dia the circumference of the hole would be 47.1mm. If the wire for the circlip is 1mm dia the circumference of the circlip is 53.38mm a difference of 6.28mm and that does not allow for any spring in the circlip. For the hole to have opend up enough to free the circlip the crack would have to be at least 6mm wide.