Stupid Courts Again

[Jiberjaber]

Another forum I often have a read of (mostly to have a laugh at tbh) has quite a detailed thread about this....

News paper report 1

News paper report 2

Copied and pasted from the SXOC...

Quote:

These are the facts as gathered from Stephen's (Jack0's) Family:

Jack0's plea of guilty was made in fear and in retrospect was the wrong thing to say.

As for my involvement, I have known Stephen almost all of his 21 years; believe me when I say that this prison sentence will damage him more and more the longer he is in there.

When his family ask me for help I try my best to do so, this is one of their requests.

I wish to post the following quote from another BB in and contact email in our public area to assist the huge response they have had so far.

QUOTE:

“I am totally amazed by the support folks,

My son is Stephen Jackson, he was sentenced on the 4th of July at stoke on Trent crown court. The offence in question took place on the 18th of Aug 2004.

I would really appreciate all the support we can get.

I dunno what to do next and am open to suggestions.

I spoke with someone who has a little political knowledge today and what I can gleam is this.

the offence that Steve has been convicted of is now known as "causing death by dangerous driving" until not so long ago this was better known as "causing death by reckless driving" the government lobbied the judicial system saying that due to huge public outcry (for which they did not prove any supporting evidence) they wanted the law to be changed to make it far easier to get a conviction for motoring related fatalities. Trying to prove the reckless driving argument was hard to do due to the fact that the prosecution had to show some mensrea or pre determined thought of recklessness. So under government pressure the law changed and a number of new offences were created among them automotive manslaughter. The burden of proof that was required to now get a conviction was drastically reduced. The cps only had to prove that any of the drivers involved in an incident that results in the death of anyone else could be proved to be doing anything that a normal and/or competent driver would not normally do would make them culpable and responsible for that person’s death.

In Steve's case that was speeding and this loosely defined and ill conceived "Racing" argument.

I am trying to be as forthright and honest as I can here.

I will try and give you a bit of background about Steve that may help and I will try to keep it as short as possible so as not to bore you and get to the point as quick as I can.

Steve was born into a house where the love of the internal combustion engine has reached the level of a religious cult.

Steve could set the cams up on a small block Chevy at age 11 he watched bike racing and F1 instead of teenage mutant ninja rabbits. When he was 13 together we built a street rod. He learned to ride a bike before his 14th birthday (off road of course) we have been a high perf vehicle household for as long as I remember M5's skylines etc etc you get the idea.

Steve however didn’t want a career in the motor trade as he had a great aptitude with pc's and programming. so a couple of years ago he brought both interests together and he set up an online shop selling bolt on goodies for the young kids with hot hatches. He did all his own programming for a php based customisable web shop. Steve knew most of the kids that hang out at festival site (a retail park in town) and on the night of the incident the fiesta driver had approached him with some questions regarding some stuff he wanted to buy. So Steve and the driver chatted for 10 mins about alloy wheels and tyres. Then as is normal all of the cars Steve’s included drove around the retail park a few times. The police have CCTV evidence that shows both Steve’s car and the fiesta driving around a few circuits of the park. The CCTV does not clearly show the reg of Steve’s car but when interviewed by police Steve positively identifies the white car as his. Phew this is longer winded than I had hoped.

Steve and the fiesta are recorded by CCTV leaving the festival site at 01.22am at that point the fiesta is a fair distance behind Steve.

A short period later they are seen by witness number 1 (a milkman out on his rounds) they are both entering the slip road onto the A500 dual carriageway and the fiesta is in front of Steve. The witness estimates the speed of both vehicles to be around 50mph. Steve has no recollection of the fiesta passing him and assumes this happened without his being aware in the traffic leaving the retail park. Later along the dual carriageway the cars are spotted by witness 2 (a taxi driver) he claims the fiesta went past him at high speed approx 70-80mph and a few seconds later Steve’s 200sx doing the same speed. a short time later they are spotted by witness 3 (a women) she claims the fiesta passes her at very high speed 90-100mph she claims that although the Nissan was not tailgating the fiesta it seemed to her that both vehicles were engaged in a high speed game !

For the next couple of miles there are no other witnesses. Steve claims that although he was following the other vehicle it was his normal route home and he felt that his speed was within his capable limits and that of his car.

Almost there so hang in there a min or two.

near the exit that Steve takes to leave the A500 there is a patch of road that suffers from bad subsidence Steve know this and reduces speed (as a side bar the local council have resurfaced this stretch due to so many accidents and fatalities in fact 3 days after this accident there is another non fatal crash on the same corner) the fiesta does not however reduce its speed (the driver does not live at this end of town and is not familiar with the road) Steve watches as the other car looses control the fiesta finally comes to rest some distance into the trees and is not visible from the road. Steve is going slowly by this point and comes to a halt opposite where the fiesta has left the road.

His brother and his girlfriend are in the car with him and immediately he tells them to call 999. Steve gets out and rushes over into the trees to see if he can help. The carnage he is presented with is best not described here. But he notices that although the front seat passengers are obviously dead the rear passenger is alive but is very badly injured. Steve has had some first aid training and tried to help out the survivor. He selflessly tried to clear enough of the debris to get to the passenger and if possible get him clear of the fuel that was spilling from the ruptured fuel tank.

His brother called 999 at I think 01.27 in all both vehicles had covered 5.4 miles.

From the last CCTV footage at 01.22 and the logging of the 999 call they worked out an average speed of between 80-100mph.

Due to the fact that both parties had spoken to each other the prosecution claim that at this point some form of race had been agreed.

This is it in a nutshell there is nothing else, no more evidence.

I know it’s long winded but I wanted you all to be in full knowledge of the facts as they stand. I am trying to be honest with myself and with you all. I would find this all a bit easier is Steve was directly to blame but as you can see from the above I just cant accept the courts decision.”

davejackson@hotmail.co.uk

The message from the accused's father doesn't quite read right to me, the style switches from friendly chat writing to proffessional statement style of writting, so I am not overly convinced, although it can be understandable that they don't wish their son to be exposed to a prison sentence.

I still think the guy justifiably got 5yrs and was lucky to get only that. Taking a look at the following he could have ended up with 10 years!.

CAUSING DEATH BY DANGEROUS DRIVING: PANEL PUBLISHES ADVICE TO COURT OF APPEAL ON SENTENCING GUIDELINES

PRESS NOTICE SAP 1/03

18 February 2003

The Sentencing Advisory Panel has today published a proposal that the Court of Appeal should issue a sentencing guideline on the offence of causing death by dangerous driving.

The Panel believes that this offence causes particular difficulty for sentencers. On the one hand, an offence involving a person’s death is always serious, and understandably leads to calls for severe sentences. On the other hand, an offender convicted of this offence did not deliberately cause death or serious injury. In some cases, the driver may have made a momentary error, but in the worst type of case he or she may be very much to blame, having driven for several miles with complete disregard for the safety of others.

In its proposal the Panel advises that, to mark the gravity of an offence resulting in death, the starting point for sentence should normally be imprisonment. The standard of the offender’s driving at the time of the offence should be the primary factor in determining the seriousness of an offence.

The Panel recommends:

a short custodial sentence for an offence arising from a momentary error of judgment or short period of bad driving, where there are no aggravating features;

a custodial sentence of 2-5 years when the standard of the offender’s driving is more highly dangerous, e.g. aggressive driving or greatly excessive speed, or when the offender has consumed alcohol or drugs;

a custodial sentence over 5 years, up to the maximum of 10 years, for the most serious offences, where the offender has driven with complete disregard for the safety of other road users and where other aggravating features are present.

Factors that would increase the seriousness of an offence include:

the death of more than one victim or serious injury to one or more victims in addition to the death;

failing to stop or falsely claiming that one of the victims was responsible for the crash; and

previous convictions for motoring offences, especially if they involved bad driving or the consumption of excessive alcohol before driving.

[skeet94]

I totally agree with Lexus Boy

[star a]

it seems there is sufficient evidence that the cars were racing, the 200 driver slows down at the accident blackspot, but the fiesta carries on, the cctv catches them both on film 5 mins previously?, and the calls are measured to indicate 80-100mph average speed, yet the 200 driver sees the accident, the 200 driver pleads guilty., why?. his family and friends obviously will campaign for his innocence, just as the family and friends of the two deceased think he is where he belongs. if the 200 was not, ahem, driving at similar speeds near to the fiesta, would the fiesta have gone slower throught the blackspot, and would the two people be alive.

[mudzs]

I think the sentence is harsh ,especialy if you compare it to other crimes that in my book are far worse and have carried lesser sentences, even if they was racing he was not the direct cause of the accident the other driver who died is to blame for that ,he was the one who had his foot on the gas pedal .If someone had a gun to a persons head and someone else shouted shoot would they be to blame ?.in my book its another example of this countries **** up court systems .do you think he would have got such a big sentence if the driver had lived and just the passengers had died ,i think not because there would have been some one to take the blame .I would like to add i do not agree with racing or speeding on public roads but will admit to have done it myself in moments of madness and i bet i aint the only one .just remember the next time you plant your foot into the carpet to prove a point to the bmw next to you it could be you thats in this situation because the bmw did not ease off at the right time and ploughed into a tree

[star a]

I think the sentence is harsh ,especialy if you compare it to other crimes that in my book are far worse and have carried lesser sentences, even if they was racing he was not the direct cause of the accident the other driver who died is to blame for that ,he was the one who had his foot on the gas pedal .If someone had a gun to a persons head and someone else shouted shoot would they be to blame ?.in my book its another example of this countries **** up court systems .do you think he would have got such a big sentence if the driver had lived and just the passengers had died ,i think not because there would have been some one to take the blame .I would like to add i do not agree with racing or speeding on public roads but will admit to have done it myself in moments of madness and i bet i aint the only one .just remember the next time you plant your foot into the carpet to prove a point to the bmw next to you it could be you thats in this situation because the bmw did not ease off at the right time and ploughed into a tree 

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actually, derek bentley & christopher craig were both found guilty of the murder of policeman sidney miles on dec 11th 1952, even though chris held the gun, derek was reportedly witnessed saying "let him have it chris", chris fired the shot, yet derek was controversially hanged for murder.

the point of the prosecution is, would the accident have happened if the 200sx was not racing, probably not as the fiesta driver would have no reason to drive beyond his ability.

[mudzs]

good point but its not like he pushed him of the road as there was no contact between the cars .dont get me wrong its not the point of who is to blame etc that i disagree with its the sentence that he got .

[MacRS200]

As I see it he admitted that he killed 3 people by dangerous driving, he entered a plea of guilty.

Whether he was responsible or not, did not get a hearing in court, perhaps if he had stuck it out he may have been found innocent by a jury of his peers.

[marcus]

As I see it he admitted that he killed 3 people by dangerous driving, he entered a plea of guilty.

Whether he was responsible or not, did not get a hearing in court, perhaps if he had stuck it out he may have been found innocent by a jury of his peers.

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Just what i was thinking if you are going to "plea guilty" the courts are going to give what they see fit, WHAT DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD GET FOR HAVEING A PART IN KILLING 3 people by dangerous driving ;)

He may well not have been raceing, and if so why did he plea GUILTY, to all that went on that night!!

its all If,s & but,s but they are Big!! ones

[adz]

it seems there is sufficient evidence that the cars were racing, the 200 driver slows down at the accident blackspot, but the fiesta carries on, the cctv catches them both on film 5 mins previously?, and the calls are measured to indicate 80-100mph average speed,

So it would seem the Fiesta driver didn't know about the accident blackspot, in which case should he have been travelling between 80 and 100 MPH , 3 up in a Fiesta if he didn't know the road.

Either that or the fiesta driver knew the road well and didn't care about the dangers. If i'm honest I still cringe about the stupid things I used to do in my youth in my first cars but i've been LUCKY as have most of us, if we're honest. To me this seems like a tragic accident with an UNLUCKY scapegoat.

Based on what evidence i've read so far (which of course may not be all the evidence) I don't think he should have pleaded guilty, but I am fully aware how solicitors can try and persuade you to trust them to do what's best, especially when you're vulnerable and unable to fully think straight.

[Steve ( West Mids )]

So 5.4 miles in 5 minutes is an average of 64.8 mph ........ so how come somebody has calculated an average of 80 to 100 mph? Something still not right :(

[Jiberjaber]

Maybe they spent a minute or so at traffic lights ? (1 min delay would bump it upto around 80 mph

[MacRS200]

Maybe they spent a minute or so at traffic lights ? (1 min delay would bump it upto around 80 mph

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Other way about mate, delay would take the ave speed down.

[Jiberjaber]

Maybe they spent a minute or so at traffic lights ? (1 min delay would bump it upto around 80 mph

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Other way about mate, delay would take the ave speed down.

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Nope.... 1 min static delay would mean they spend 4 mins driving the distance. So speed increases once the static time is removed.

[Steve ( West Mids )]

Don't matter if they park up for 3 minutes the AVERAGE SPEED is still the same ( as in distance divided by time ) :P

[Jiberjaber]

I wasn't saying your wrong regarding how to calculate average speed. What I am saying is that for it to be 80 mph, they would need to lose 1 min or so somewhere. the key bit is the "I think 01.27" bit.

Besides, as has already been established else where, there are some serious parts missing from the story.

[Monster-Mat]

Besides, as has already been established else where, there are some serious parts missing from the story.

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exactly why i am not passing Judgement.....or Opinion

:mat:

[MacRS200]

Besides, as has already been established else where, there are some serious parts missing from the story.

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exactly why i am not passing Judgement.....or Opinion

:mat:

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I'm not passing judgment either, he pled guilty, so guilty he is. End of......