Mark@tdi/PROLEX,Other Experts Opinions (and Peeps)

[Monster-Mat]

OK.....

BIG PLATE, 2 OPTIONS

Altezza 3S-GE 210 hp, with ecu and loom £1000 No History! Breakers Yard

or

Celica 3S-GTE 245 hp, with ecu and loom £1375 20,000km Toyota Belgium

obvioulsy the Altezza engine will plop straight in......i recon 2 days work

the celica engine will be a tad more difficult....engine mounts, intercooler...a fair bit of electrics...fueling, however

tuning is easier, and the engine was designed to be force fed, the Altezza will be at the peak of its stress level with FI.

what would you do...........................

(by the way, my Tinternets not gone off yet............but the phone has)

[Zee007]

As per my PM - whats the engine to be used in?

Whats your ultimate goal?

[Fidgits]

my opinion (for what its worth)..

All comes down to what your trying to achieve... the Tezza engine wont go much above 300bhp - but I've heard there are 3S-GTE's running near 600.. but then, this isnt going to be a high power project is it?

But, since this is for the drift car - surely you want a smooth power curve, and although you need power - i would personally say a N/A is preffered over a turbo for drifting, as you have more control.. and it will be easier to balance on the throttle..

Plus, ease of fitment etc - i think for drifting 3S-GE is the way to go..

just my 2p..

[Monster-Mat]

for the drift car, smooth power curves can be got if the geering and tuning is done right....

ive already got the LSD and final drive reduction gear, which will keep the Torque low, but RPM high(in boost)

with 210 hp, its still going to need coaxing to go sideways, with 245 out the bag, it will want to naturally go sideways, in a lightweight shell of approx 1000kilo

ease of fitment.......There the same engine block, only difference other than internally, is the altezza has an ally block, the celica uses a Iron block

[Zee007]

for the drift car, smooth power curves can be got if the geering and tuning is done right....

ive already got the LSD and final drive reduction gear, which will keep the Torque low, but RPM high(in boost)

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Tezza engine.

Nice and high revving.

Easy to transplant.

Could always uprate internals if you really wanted more than 300/350 hp.

IMO.

[Monster-Mat]

so why is the 3s-gte hard to transplant?

as have said above there the same block....3S-

I dont need to open the celica engine to get 300-350

[Fidgits]

Sounds like you prefer the celica route ;)

i have just seen the addtions on the histories..

if you think you can sort the 3S-GTE compatibility issues, from that info (and what you mention above) then perhaps it would be the better engine...

I still personally think a N/A would be easier to control for drifting - but what do I know!

[Zee007]

so why is the 3s-gte hard to transplant?

as  have said above there the same block....3S-

I dont need to open the celica engine to get 300-350

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I don't know Mat - because I've never done it before (nor do I ever plan too).

You asked what we think, I suggested it based on the fact you said in your first post that the Tezza engine will drop straight in, the Celicas block need more work.

I think you seem to be talking yourself into the GT4 block - in which case, go for it!

[Monster-Mat]

no, im asking for expert opinion, and the general opinion of what people think......and why they have come to that conclusion.

i appreciate peoples opnions, but i will argue the toss, if there opinion isnt based on the understanding of whats involved.

i know the celica engine will require more work....but pound for pound the celica engine out of the crate in my eyes is by far the better option....

remeber ive driven the altezza, and its bollocks are 2 high up the RPM range .

ive not decided to go with the celica engine quite yet.....However Toyota Belgium are being very nice to me....

[RoadRash]

If money doesn't play a big roll......

Mount the 3S-GE Gen_IV in (easier to fit), get a stroker kit from JE or JUN and kick it up with a turbo charger. B)

Must be a HOT RIDE then.

[jason_l]

no, im asking for expert opinion, and the general opinion of what people think......and why they have come to that conclusion.

i appreciate peoples opnions, but i will argue the toss, if there opinion isnt based on the understanding of whats involved.

i know the celica engine will require more work....but pound for pound the celica engine out of the crate in my eyes is by far the better option....

remeber ive driven the altezza, and its bollocks are 2 high up the RPM range .

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I think you have answered it yourself!!!!

im no mechanic but can easily understand that the celica engine is more work!

If you don't like the tezza engine than get the celica lump, in my opinion it makes it more individual and more special.......just like your monster :P :)

And the fact that it hasn't been done before? and you are setting another precident :P

Anyway, im sure you will make the right choice! :winky:

[Fidgits]

just a quick Q Mat...

The 3s-GE was designed to be fitted transvere in the celica - will this not create an issue if you install it longitudely?

[Monster-Mat]

I didn't know drfting was about big bhp?

If you've stripped out the interior and other bits a 2ltr is fine....or not?

Do you really want a iron block?

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the iron block 1g-fe 2litre is less power and heavier than the iron block celica 2 litre

im looking further down the route than the instalation......

pond for pound the celica is more tunable for less cash.

ive just quickley priced up altezza/celica mods on TDI

£ for £ you gain far more with the gte

filter on the celica gives 15hp on its own....id say 5-8 on the altezza

i suppose what i want to hear from mark, or someone who knows the engine characturistics better...

is, £ for £ Celica gt4, as its turbocharged already, and the weight difference between the 2 is negligable, id rather NOT have to open the engines untill needed.

Mike the latest generation 3s-ge, from the Caldinas are asking silly money

[Global_Grafix]

I would go for the celica lump. Basically parts are easier to find, plus you dont need to do extensive work to unleash the power, just a few tweeks and shes good for about 330, plus the one you have in mind has history, yet the tezza one has none, which is a risk. We helped sort a customer with a few bits - celica GT4, mongoose exhaust, decat pipe, Apexi valve controller and a fuel pressure regulator, its now running 330bhp and 18psi, which is aboout at its turbos max and the bottom end is nearing a danger zone.

The tezza lump is a straight forward mod, but as you know is alot more expensive to get anything from it.

With the whole project possibly costing a few quid anyway, I would go with the celica power plant as replacement parts are a damm sight easier to source.

Thats just my opinion

[Monster-Mat]

just a quick Q Mat...

The 3s-GE was designed to be fitted transvere in the celica - will this not create an issue if you install it longitudely?

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good point, this is why im asking for Marks opinion, however, the JGTC Supras were running 3S-GTE engines longitudely.

i personally see no issues, the engine bolts up perfectly to the IS200 6 speed gearbox

[jason_l]

just a quick Q Mat...

The 3s-GE was designed to be fitted transvere in the celica - will this not create an issue if you install it longitudely?

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good point, this is why im asking for Marks opinion, however, the JGTC Supras were running 3S-GTE engines longitudely.

i personally see no issues, the engine bolts up perfectly to the IS200 6 speed gearbox

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well no matter what you go for, im sure it will turn out great!!!!! :P

[Monster-Mat]

I didn't know drfting was about big bhp?

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its not Pete, but 245 hp will be easier to work with than 210....

[AltezzaScott]

I would go with the Tezza route Mat... If your gonna be seriously drifting... ie getting good publicity i am sure someone could sponsor you and get you the parts for a GOOD price!!!.. :winky: :winky:

BUT... if you decide to go for the GT4 ( which as you say is a little easier to tune regarding FI... i know who can sort you out a rather BIG intercooler!! :D

I am sure you will make a gem of whichever option you choose mate...

[Global_Grafix]

just a quick Q Mat...

The 3s-GE was designed to be fitted transvere in the celica - will this not create an issue if you install it longitudely?

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good point, this is why im asking for Marks opinion, however, the JGTC Supras were running 3S-GTE engines longitudely.

i personally see no issues, the engine bolts up perfectly to the IS200 6 speed gearbox

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Really, the 3s-gte will bolt directly to the standard 6 speed box? Will the box take the power? Now thats interesting if it will :winky:

[tdiplc]

If I were considering this for my myself I would prioritise my requirements.

If cost was not my primary concern I would use the Beams engine, get a low compression 2.2 stroker kit in there, and select a turbocharger that yields a boost delivery characteristic suitable for drift purposes. That would be a proper conversion.

I suspect that the engineering costs of getting the Celica engine and ancilliaries installed may be quite close to that of my 1st choice, plus I would probably end junking a lot of Celica hardware anyway.

Go on, you know you want to

[Mr Singh]

Boosting the 3S-GE your limited to 11psi of boost iirc.. so would require work on the internals.. which is going to be costly at any rate.

I'm going against the grain, get the 3S-GTE lump, whack a bigger turbo on i'm sure it will cost you less to get the power you need...

If i had to do it again i think i would of done the HKS RS Turbo (350-400bhp) which does require internals but near £5k for the conversion... which makes u think Supra TT :P

[Monster-Mat]

If I were considering this for my myself I would prioritise my requirements.

If cost was not my primary concern I would use the Beams engine, get a low compression 2.2 stroker kit in there, and select a turbocharger that yields a boost delivery characteristic suitable for drift purposes. That would be a proper conversion.

I suspect that the engineering costs of getting the Celica engine and ancilliaries installed may be quite close to that of my 1st choice, plus I would probably end junking a lot of Celica hardware anyway.

Go on, you know you want to 

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I do want to.......Yes

but which, and the cost is an issue.........poppability % means if the Altezza lump goes pop, its gonna be harder to replace. and due to the engines characturistics it more likely to pop

popping the gte wont incure as heavy a loss, also the issue here, is the Altezza engine from the breakers has no history, zilch.

i know everything about the celica engine

electronic intergration wont be the same issue here as it was with the monster, i have no intention of using the Lexus instruments.

and the only lighting requirements are Brake lights, so the biggest foreseeeable issue, is engine mounts, and erm.....i suppose mounting an intercooler, and of course those fiddley bits

[Monster-Mat]

If I were considering this for my myself I would prioritise my requirements.

If cost was not my primary concern I would use the Beams engine, get a low compression 2.2 stroker kit in there, and select a turbocharger that yields a boost delivery characteristic suitable for drift purposes. That would be a proper conversion.

I suspect that the engineering costs of getting the Celica engine and ancilliaries installed may be quite close to that of my 1st choice, plus I would probably end junking a lot of Celica hardware anyway.

Go on, you know you want to 

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I do want to.......Yes

but which, and the cost is an issue.........poppability % means if the Altezza lump goes pop, its gonna be harder to replace. and due to the engines characturistics it more likely to pop

popping the gte wont incure as heavy a loss, also the issue here, is the Altezza engine from the breakers has no history, zilch.

i know everything about the celica engine

electronic intergration wont be the same issue here as it was with the monster, i have no intention of using the Lexus instruments.

and the only lighting requirements are Brake lights, so the biggest foreseeeable issue, is engine mounts, and erm.....i suppose mounting an intercooler, and of course those fiddley bits

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as a further note: if i was gonna do a 2.2 on the Altezza, why not apply the same trail of thought to the gte... :shutit:

£ for £ even on your site mark its a darn site cheaper to get some HP from the gte than the altezza, especially when you add the costs up, compared to gain

[jason_l]

like you say.....altezza engine more likely to go pop!!!!!

went to watch the touring cars a couple of weeks ago to see the tezza's race. don't know if you saw the post about it, but they blew all 3 tezza engines during qualifying, so didn't race!!!!!!

Is it a sign?????

[Mr Singh]

Maybe Scott can give us more info on the touring car engines?

mines been reliable, so far, even when it was N/A and i had a very heavy right foot