Budget October 2024

[Mr_Groundhog]

6 minutes ago, GMB said:

TBH that sounds like both Tories and Labour

Well spotted... they both hate us. Although Tories/Reform hate people even more (consistently vote against people and worker's rights, protecting nature, etc.). 

The Overton window shifted a lot: what Tony Benn stood for (and sounded resonable to most as one side of the mainstream) is now branded as "far-out-radical" when the others dare make the same points.

[GMB]

5 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Particularly growth-for-growth's-sake as we do in our society. It's proven not to work as a metric, and it will eventually lead us all to a dark place.

China seem to be thriving on that principle but hang on China is already turning into a dark place. Dammit!

[steve2006]

6 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

We cannot solve everything with growth. Particularly growth-for-growt's-sake as we do in our society. It's proven not to work as a metric, and it will eventually lead us all to a dark place.

We have sovereignty over the currency and the money supply in the UK (unlike countries in the EU), and we could do lots of things if there was political will to do so.
Think how for some things there is never a shortage of money. For those things the tap is always open and flowing...

I urge to look up "modern monetary theory" and give it a chance.

As an example of “the tap is always open and flowing” the NHS must be the prime example. The problem being is that you will never fill up the sink when the plug is missing.

[Mr_Groundhog]

Just now, GMB said:

China seem to be thriving on that principle but hang on China is already turning into a dark place. Dammit!

Not sure you're agreeing with me or trying to paint me as a pro-china activist?

Beware, however, of the power of propaganda. Our media have been forecasting "the end is nigh for China" for man years now... and the fact is they're moving forward and we're reversing to Victorian times.

[GMB]

1 minute ago, steve2006 said:

you will never fill up the sink when the plug is missing.

Unless the drain is blocked by detritus,  ( detritus being the multi layered, overpaid, impotent management in the NHS )

[GMB]

2 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Not sure you're agreeing with me or trying to paint me as a pro-china activist?

That's the essence of a good thriller.

 

3 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Beware, however, of the power of propaganda. Our media have been forecasting "the end is nigh for China" for man years now... and the fact is they're moving forward and we're reversing to Victorian times.

Spot on!

[Mr_Groundhog]

1 minute ago, steve2006 said:

As an example of “the tap is always open and flowing” the NHS must be the prime example. The problem being is that you will never fill up the sink when the plug is missing.

...If only most of that money was well spent. I worked in public sector projects and I can assure you a huge amount of that money is fixed to flow to private "consulting" firms such as NHS SBS, owned by Sopra Steria, and not to fund patient wellbeing, prevention programmes, good working conditions or efficiency. This practice infantilises the NHS and is more expensive to run.

We have UK educated doctors for instance, leaving for Australia in droves.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Right. This is my final final final word -  Attack mode?  Sounds like fun to me.

BTW I have no need for a psychologist, but a psychiatrist ??  Hmm?  I think I'll get the bike out and go for a burn-up.  Flippin cold though innit?

I am reminded of this Gray 

"After 12 years of therapy, my psychotherapist said something that brought tears to my eyes."

"What did he say?"

""No hablo inglés.""

🤣

[GMB]

Why don't we few Lexus owners get together and run the NHS ourselves? I'm sure we could do a better job based on recent comments. I bags CEO job.

[Malc1]

1 minute ago, GMB said:

Why don't we few Lexus owners get together and run the NHS ourselves? I'm sure we could do a better job based on recent comments. I bags CEO job.

I’ll be your preferred.    Brain Surgeon ……., who’s the first volunteer then ? 
 

Malc 

[Boomer54]

20 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

We cannot solve everything with growth. Particularly growth-for-growt's-sake as we do in our society. It's proven not to work as a metric, and it will eventually lead us all to a dark place.

We have sovereignty over the currency and the money supply in the UK (unlike countries in the EU), and we could do lots of things if there was political will to do so.
Think how for some things there is never a shortage of money. For those things the tap is always open and flowing...

I urge to look up "modern monetary theory" and give it a chance.

One of my hobbies (stop booing in the aisles) is Financial history and Economics. If it's been written in the last 500 years I have probably read it. You are correct about currency and money supply, but that is really only part of the story when it comes to dealing with a countries Economic planning. It also depends on who owns your debt as to the limits of what you can do with the aforementioned. Please ask Liz Truss for a further explanation. We are not Japan and if you understand what I mean by that then you also understand the prior point.

[Boomer54]

3 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

I’ll be your preferred.    Brain Surgeon ……., who’s the first volunteer then ? 
 

Malc 

Can I clean the toilets as I would like a move from the doghouse.

[Phil xxkr]

56 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Do you know the difference between a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist?. Many people think they are the same thing by a different name.

Aren't In Theory and In Practise two different things. 🙂. I defer to the films of Woody Allen in this area who claimed his films were like psychoanalysis. The only difference being he was the one getting paid. 🤑

[Mr_Groundhog]

25 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

One of my hobbies (stop booing in the aisles) is Financial history and Economics. If it's been written in the last 500 years I have probably read it. You are correct about currency and money supply, but that is really only part of the story when it comes to dealing with a countries Economic planning. It also depends on who owns your debt as to the limits of what you can do with the aforementioned. Please ask Liz Truss for a further explanation. We are not Japan and if you understand what I mean by that then you also understand the prior point.

This is why I urge you to look up modern monetary theory: The debt trap is to think "oh would it not be nice to have all of these things that are good... such a shame we can't afford them"

Funny you use Japan as an example. I wish we had half their infrastructure, public transport, clean streets, safety, recycling programmes and obesity rates instead of ours.... Are they a perfect society? No... but they have had the bullet train for 60 years while here we failed to build a few kms of high-speed rail because of all the NIMBYs.

[GMB]

4 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

Funny you use Japan as an example. I wish we had half their infrastructure, public transport, clean streets, safety, recycling programmes and obesity rates instead of ours.... Are they a perfect society? No... but they have had the bullet train for 60 years while here we failed to build a few kms of high-speed rail because of all the NIMBYs.

I wonder if the massive injection of cash and investment after Fat man and Little boy were used on them helped their economy, whereas Britain was busted paying war debts after being bankrupted paying back the Americans for their assistance.   Danger Alert - possibility of setting off multiple rants - Danger.

[GMB]

42 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

I’ll be your preferred.    Brain Surgeon ……., who’s the first volunteer then ?

I would be first in the line but unfortunately I had mine removed after a motorcycle accident in 1969.

[GMB]

Just to educate everyone who may not know or not want to know or just don't care or have had their brain removed by Malc recently in his new job. The picture below is of the bike named after the two atomic bombs that hit Japan. If you don't know what it is  - google it.

What a beauty - THE BIKE I mean!!!!

[Malc1]

The view at the rear is better …….. built designed by Ove Arup I believe many years back 🤔

Wonderful ol’ Syds Arbor to punt around on those water buses to Bondi Beach and more ???? 
 

or have I got that view totally wrong 🤔

Malc 

[Boomer54]

13 minutes ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

This is why I urge you to look up modern monetary theory: The debt trap is to think "oh would it not be nice to have all of these things that are good... such a shame we can't afford them"

Funny you use Japan as an example. I wish we had half their infrastructure, public transport, clean streets, safety, recycling programmes and obesity rates instead of ours.... Are they a perfect society? No... but they have had the bullet train for 60 years while here we failed to build a few kms of high-speed rail because of all the NIMBYs.

I mentioned it specifically to differentiate how MMT can in itself be limited by debt structure. It is flawed if it is interpreted in the wrong way.

People generally don't think much about 'money' except how they can use it. They don't realise how intransitory it really is. All it is is a medium or platform to ease the way for people to exchange productive labour. In that sense it really has no intrinsic value of itself. It's value is only derived by confidence that it can be redeemed and for a reliable expected value. That means it is expected to have a finite volume/supply otherwise the value can fluctuate wildly. Confidence that that supply can and will be controlled so that the value of every unit in existence can be relied upon to have a closely expected value is extremely important.

An history of 'money' ,or mediums of exchange can be found here.

The History of Money | NOVA | PBS

Even today people don't seem to understand all of the above. I advise them to think more closely about why our legal tender contains the phrase "I promise to redeem etc". The key word is promise. The value is in the "promise" not the paper it is printed on. If of course you honour the promise by creating ever more bits of paper then people rightly lose confidence in the value of what is being honoured. What will it buy. That gets out of hand (Liz T) and at an extreme you get Weimar Hyperinfaltion ,because you are in what is termed a currency crisis. No one wants to supply you to be paid in your paper. Indeed, people sell things to get an exchange to something that will hold it's value and your paper has more value has a covering for your walls.

MMT is basically Ok within the confines of all of the above. Follow it wrongly and it will end badly.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

No, you don't get to do that with me.

It's a very common client trick to deflect away from the issue. Let me make this very simple and direct. Do you believe that every vote is equal and the vote made or not is sacrosant  as to the wishes of the voter and by sacrosant I do mean binding and not to be wriggled out of ? That is the embodiment of Democracy, but as it stands it appears that you believe that some votes, your vote, is worth more ,because you somehow haver a superior ability and appear to be under the belief that if you can prove at least in your mind that you are 'right' that is sufficient to justify that your vote counts for more. Democracy does not work that way. Non Binding actually is a corruption of real Democracy trying to work. IQ does not make your vote worth more than the person cleaning the toilets. Surely you can see that? Or perhaps you would rather not.

Parliament ultimately works for the people.

Don't get to do what? Ask if your position is realistic or idealistic?

Never said, nor suggested that some votes counts for less... in election. Referendum is just not the "vehicle" to decide in UK system. So whatever happens after referendum is not decision of the people, it is decision of the Parliament... it does not matter if that decision aligns with votes of not. Even calling for referendum on foreign policy is dereliction of duties in my opinion, because they asking somebody who is not equipped to make that decision, to make it for them, so that they will not look stupid when it backfires. In my mind there is no question about following EU referendum results - 100% should have been "ignored" (ignored in a sense it should not have triggered exit from EU, but perhaps respected in other forms of reform) and there is nothing undemocratic about it.

Again - what do you call "real" democracy? We are in representative democracy where people even in theory do not make direct decisions. And I believe they don't make any decisions in practice. Long reasoning, but we can pretty much boil it down to corruption and to the point that in practice politicians can lie in election.

Parliament ultimately in theory should work for people... yes, but you not answered my question. Also if you every willing to answer it... include this part - who the Lords work for? And Who the King works for?

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

The people voted on Brexit (lies were told by both sides of the argument so zero sum). Representation was not and is not a factor on a national referendum as this is not MP's ,but voters responding on an issue. When it comes to parliament then yes representation might be considered, but actually on this point I doubt it was influential at all as most MP's fell into line with the wishes of their constituency voting. In that sense for once they were doing what their voters asked for.

What followed after Brexit is neither here nor there to this core issue of Democracy, Referendum and Brexit. They are after the fact issues, but yes it all turned into a betrayal of voters. Indeed, ultimately the Tory party paid the price for all that. They lost power and they fragmented into what has become two parties. That won't change now until the Tory party recognise the valid issues that underpin the Reform party. The latter rightly won't change back into Tories until that party addresses their wrongs and becomes something recognisable as a party that has some vestige of belief in being British. They need to get their priorities right.

No they didn't - referendum is just opinion poll... not only that the margin was razor thin and no question serious ever should be decided on 52/48% margin. So the only takeaway from referendum was that nation is deeply divided on topic. That is all. There was no clear answer.

And no - lies were not told on both sides. If they were please name me the lies on Remain side? I know I am now talking with hindsight, but everything they said about economy, which was branded "fearmongering" turned out to be true.

Now again - tell me a single promise from leave side that was NOT lie. So no - lies were not told on both sides and it is not zero sum game. Even if they were told on both sides it would not be zero sum game. It would only be zero sum game if both sides were perfectly equally correct/incorrect, or if those lies would have perfectly same/opposite impact. But it wasn't. Again I can't even think of any "lie" that remain side told before election, unless something clearly marked as "perdition", but even those all turned out to be true, or at least direction was correct.

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Representation was not and is not a factor on a national referendum as this is not MP's ,but voters responding on an issue. When it comes to parliament then yes representation might be considered, but actually on this point I doubt it was influential at all as most MP's fell into line with the wishes of their constituency voting. In that sense for once they were doing what their voters asked for.

Again - we do not live in direct democracy where democratic decisions could be made in such way. Such decisions are made by representation, in election and by elected parliament, not in single "yes/no" vote by people. 

Really I just cannot comprehend how rational person can say this "what their voters asked for" - how voters could ask for something they don't know what it was? And this isn't some sort of tricky statement. Voters when voting for brexshaite didn't know what it means - literally. Because they only found out what it means once the exit deal was negotiated. Also there is plenty of evidence to suggest that by the time deal was negotiated there was like 65% people against it, because it is became clear that it is not what they voted for. 

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

What followed after Brexit is neither here nor there to this core issue of Democracy, Referendum and Brexit. They are after the fact issues, but yes it all turned into a betrayal of voters. Indeed, ultimately the Tory party paid the price for all that. They lost power and they fragmented into what has become two parties.

That won't change now until the Tory party recognise the valid issues that underpin the Reform party. The latter rightly won't change back into Tories until that party addresses their wrongs and becomes something recognisable as a party that has some vestige of belief in being British. They need to get their priorities right.

The first sentence I mostly agree with, but I would add that tories to begin with adopted politics of far right and that split the party. If they would have stayed centre right that would have never have happened. But they really wanted that xenophobes and racists ~10-15% of vote and extra 2 seats in parliament. They played populism, pandered to racism and ultimately lost.

Second part I disagree with, there are no valid reasons that underpins racism and xenophoby, there is small number of voters who vote on the basis of those issues in any country. Again share of that vote isn't large, but it exist. So there is decision to be made - ignore potential ~15% of votes and stick to the ideals... and allow far-right party to form and get 2 whole seats in the parliament. Or try to capture those racists and risk splitting more centrist part of your party from more far right side of you party.

As you say all votes have same value, so if 65% of people people don't find immigration to be an issue and 15% does, then who should be follow - 15% or 65%?

The issue itself is more nuanced, and perhaps the topic for another post, but in short issue was never the immigration, nor the scale of it. The issues was that government failed to integrate immigrants properly and that lead into competition between locals and immigrants for essential services. So the fault was on the government, not on the immigrants. 

[Boomer54]

"Don't get to do what? Ask if your position is realistic or idealistic?"

Don't be disingenuous when you are obviously smarter than that.

You went off issue citing non relevant matters and in doing that you got to not confront the issue directly.

[Malc1]

Gentlemen and Others ,,,,,,,,,,  this Money Argument is all rather academic going forward

The BofE will pontificate and give us some professional guidance next week as to where interest rates are going  ..................

The Money Markets will respond appropriately 

BUT

Also on about Wednesday   .......  Tim Martin of Wetherspoon will give us the realism of the new NI attack on employers ......  and show us the inflationary pressures at the sharp end for us  consumers 

ALSO on about Wednesday

Rachel Reeves will be unveiling formally I understand, her thoughts on SEQUESTRATING the value of the Public Sector Pension Pots of some £4/500 billion to enable the Govt to borrow against that lot to take the economy forward ( or not 🤢 ) 

 

 ........... this coming Wednesday might be a significant Financial Turning Point 

 

Hang on to your Lexii and don't let go 🙃😂🤣🤞🤞🤞

 

Malc

[Boomer54]

Just a quick note to members who might be concerned about the earlier mentioned private pension being included in estates for IHT. You can find all in one place an explanation of the issue and some guidance for dealing with it on page 9 of the Sunday Times Bisiness Section.

[Malc1]

and the Reeves likely outpouring on sequestration of Public Sector Pension values is now possibly scheduled for 14th November,  I’m reading 

Malc 

[Phil xxkr]

22 hours ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

That has nothing to do with Marx, and either you know it (and are being disingenous) or you don't and need to open a book for once, instead of coming here to prove you never did. 

Marx's ideas were more in line with you being the owner of the fruit of your labour, and the control of the means of production as a way to snatch them away from the ruling class (those exploiting working people, getting rich without working). 

That's rather at odds with your point. Unless ofc you live in a parallel universe where we are on track to own the means of production collectively, thus owning the profits too. You know: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs". That's Marx and not what you saw in that Daily Mail tik tok video

If you have the keys to that parallel universe, please let me in. Because what I'm experiencing is we work more and more and obtain less and less for it.

I am inevitably reminded of Thomas Sowell who wrote ;

Many intellectuals and their followers have been unduly impressed by the fact that highly educated elites like themselves have far more knowledge per capita—in the sense of special knowledge—than does the population at large. From this it is a short step to considering the educated elites to be superior guides to what should and should not be done in a society. They have often overlooked the crucial fact that the population at large may have vastly more total knowledge—in the mundane sense—than the elites, even if that knowledge is scattered in individually unimpressive fragments among vast numbers of people.”
― Thomas Sowell, Intellectuals and Society 🍻