Facebook Scams

[Linas.P]

As many of you may know - Facebook "market place" is filled with scams. General rules of shopping on internet applies - don't send money to people online without being able to see the goods (at least not amount you are willing to lose, or that isn't protected in some way by some sort of buyer protection), what seems to be too good to be true usually is a scam etc. 

That said it is still quite annoying as ratio of scams to real cars for sale is probably 5:1, especially if you start looking at something like IS300h, GS300/450h, RX and generally cars less than 10 years old. And you see them listed for £4,000 or something stupid like that it will be scam. I am sure it is annoying for sellers as well, because then people pester you about the price and all other "adverts" despite them being scams.

So I decided to investigate a little bit how these scams work, what sort of cover story they have and what they want. I was expecting it will be some sort of "advance fee scam" i.e. where they say "it is 100% safe, you will be able to inspect the car before paying anything for it, we just need holding deposit or delivery fee and you don't need to pay for the car itself yet". And to be honest I was expecting it to be certain nationality (but I was wrong)... 

So here is how the scam unfolds... To start with I contacted ~10 people who I suspected having listed the car too cheap for it to be real and hence it being a scam. To my surprise only one responded within a week, advert is gone now, but it was quite obvious scam:

Nobody is selling 2017 GS300h for £3,100, even with surprisingly patchy history on the car and the mileage it has. Realistically a ~£15,000 car... and surely you can find all sort of dodgy cars on FB for lower prices, but it won't be 5 times cheaper. Would it be £10,000, perhaps there could be other issue (like outstanding finance, undeclared damage etc.) So the price is obvious one, but there are few other signs... Price is actually listed in $, which is obvious give-away. Also new account, Christiano Ronaldo picture and multiple listings for all sorts of cars seemingly all for the same price (I am leaving the name visible as this is obviously made-up name/account and also he already changed the name to calvin so I am not exposing any real person here):

So - from 10 scams only one scammer bothered responding, which seems to tell the story that perhaps these scams are not that successful (I hope so).

For some reason the scammer didn't want to communicate on facebook (not sure what relevance that has for the scam) so only gave an e-mail address to contact further.

There are are obviously further red flags in the e-mail, the price changing, some strange language and unusual time for business communications. But long story short - they actually wanted to go for full amount upfront, which I found little bit optimistic from their side. 

However, I guess it is part of the scam, they leave red flags in to make sure they dealing with total idiot, so if person has not realised it is scam yet, then perhaps they are indeed gullible enough just to transfer the money.

Here I tried to play with them to figure out where the money is going... first link was to Revolut account going to Romanian grocery store in Germany... and I played dumb and said the link does not work... to my surprise they actually fell for it and gave me payment details of person in UK, which is massive mistake (or it suppose to be if UK police cared but they don't) and could help to track the scammer.

They also sent me very funny looking sales contract via separate e-mail to add perhaps a little bit of "legitimacy" to the whole thing, but again contract has funny mistakes in it, like american spelling of "tires" and apparently car now comes with both winter and summer set, which is very obvious red flag for most UK cars. I was actually surprised they used existing UK company contact details to cover themselves. Obviously, real company had nothing to do with it (hence I covered their name), but they were using it as a cover (also notified the company that their logo and name is being used for scams, which company doesn't seems to be overly bothered about).

In the end there was some last minute threats to "pay now" and "respond now, or we will cancel contract and you will lose the chance to buy this car, and we will sue you because you already signed the contract and now you have obligation to pay".

Interestingly as I said, they actually provide me with matching name and bank account in UK, which is 100% traceable information and police could realistically catch these people. I mean sure - it could be stolen or mule account, but there still has to be real person behind the account number. I really wasn't expecting that and I thought they will use untraceable method like some online payment system (skrill, paypal) or some old-school cheque and cash services like WesternUnion, or maybe crypto currency. But to have matching account and name for real person was a bit bold by them, also I found out he is Romanian national previously convicted of petty crimes in UK, street scams, part of the travellers organised gang, that sort of thing, deported and then caught again. 

Anyhow, because there was realistic trace I also reported to Action Fraud (even thought I knew they are useless and I think really a cover for police so that they can give official looking site for people to get rid of them without need to tell them they won't investigate scams) and immediately got response that there is no actual crime to investigate... so they basically want me to transfer money first before they do anything. I also reported it to facebook, but expectedly... again... they said there is nothing wrong with the advert and it is not against the rules.

So there isn't much to it, I can't really see what else can I do to stop the scams, but I thought I share the story, the language used, what they are asking for and maybe it helps somebody to identify the scams and avoid getting scammed. 

 

[MaximusPrime]

Hi Linas, a very interesting read, and a big shame that these practices are allowed to exist, as like you said, technically no crime has been committed at the point of listing. I am pretty sure these car listings are just a drop in the ocean, and there will be similar scams for electronics, clothing, and so on. Anything where there's money to be made, they will do it. 

Facebook could easily get rid of these scams by introducing mandatory VIN / V5 checks for every vehicle, to encourage genuine listings and validate proof of ownership. All of this can be linked to a government / DVLA database, I suspect this is why you never see fake adverts on Auto Trader, and even eBay seems to be above board in this regard.

Secondly, they can add warning banners before even allowing you to message the seller, something along the lines of "Be wary of scams", "Never send any deposits before seeing / test driving the car in person" and so on. Also introducing communication guidelines, and discouraging speaking to the seller outside the Facebook app could help.

All goes back to the trusted mantra of "If something sounds too good to be true - it probably is".

 

[MaximusPrime]

A very good video on the subject:
 

 

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, MaximusPrime said:

Hi Linas, a very interesting read, and a big shame that these practices are allowed to exist, as like you said, technically no crime has been committed at the point of listing. I am pretty sure these car listings are just a drop in the ocean, and there will be similar scams for electronics, clothing, and so on. Anything where there's money to be made, they will do it. 

Facebook could easily get rid of these scams by introducing mandatory VIN / V5 checks for every vehicle, to encourage genuine listings and validate proof of ownership. All of this can be linked to a government / DVLA database, I suspect this is why you never see fake adverts on Auto Trader, and even eBay seems to be above board in this regard.

Secondly, they can add warning banners before even allowing you to message the seller, something along the lines of "Be wary of scams", "Never send any deposits before seeing / test driving the car in person" and so on. Also introducing communication guidelines, and discouraging speaking to the seller outside the Facebook app could help.

All goes back to the trusted mantra of "If something sounds too good to be true - it probably is".

 

I have tried reporting it to facebook, but they very clearly do not care. Autotrader is clean simply because of the fees, I think cheapest listing is like £20 for 3 days, so on scams that work only occasionally they would lose money + obviously to pay for it one has to use bank card or some form of payment that is traceable back to person or their associate. eBay is also very good for this sort of thing, there are buyer protections so it is quite unlikely that anyone loses money on eBay... also they ban people for life... literally try to peddle the scam on eBay and you get life ban, will never be able to register with eBay again, don't know how they do it, but even trying different names, moving to different addresses doesn't help. One maybe able to register again, but account will get blocked within days. 

Why facebook doesn't care at all... I don't know. It does seem very negligent. They could certainly have secure method of payment within facebook, they hold a lot of date about people and can certainly figure out the fake accounts and fake listings if they only wanted to. So it is disappointing that they don't even try to prevent this. 

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

As many of you may know - Facebook "market place" is filled with scams. General rules of shopping on internet applies - don't send money to people online without being able to see the goods (at least not amount you are willing to lose, or that isn't protected in some way by some sort of buyer protection), what seems to be too good to be true usually is a scam etc. 

That said it is still quite annoying as ratio of scams to real cars for sale is probably 5:1, especially if you start looking at something like IS300h, GS300/450h, RX and generally cars less than 10 years old. And you see them listed for £4,000 or something stupid like that it will be scam. I am sure it is annoying for sellers as well, because then people pester you about the price and all other "adverts" despite them being scams.

So I decided to investigate a little bit how these scams work, what sort of cover story they have and what they want. I was expecting it will be some sort of "advance fee scam" i.e. where they say "it is 100% safe, you will be able to inspect the car before paying anything for it, we just need holding deposit or delivery fee and you don't need to pay for the car itself yet". And to be honest I was expecting it to be certain nationality (but I was wrong)... 

So here is how the scam unfolds... To start with I contacted ~10 people who I suspected having listed the car too cheap for it to be real and hence it being a scam. To my surprise only one responded within a week, advert is gone now, but it was quite obvious scam:

Nobody is selling 2017 GS300h for £3,100, even with surprisingly patchy history on the car and the mileage it has. Realistically a ~£15,000 car... and surely you can find all sort of dodgy cars on FB for lower prices, but it won't be 5 times cheaper. Would it be £10,000, perhaps there could be other issue (like outstanding finance, undeclared damage etc.) So the price is obvious one, but there are few other signs... Price is actually listed in $, which is obvious give-away. Also new account, Christiano Ronaldo picture and multiple listings for all sorts of cars seemingly all for the same price (I am leaving the name visible as this is obviously made-up name/account and also he already changed the name to calvin so I am not exposing any real person here):

So - from 10 scams only one scammer bothered responding, which seems to tell the story that perhaps these scams are not that successful (I hope so).

For some reason the scammer didn't want to communicate on facebook (not sure what relevance that has for the scam) so only gave an e-mail address to contact further.

There are are obviously further red flags in the e-mail, the price changing, some strange language and unusual time for business communications. But long story short - they actually wanted to go for full amount upfront, which I found little bit optimistic from their side. 

However, I guess it is part of the scam, they leave red flags in to make sure they dealing with total idiot, so if person has not realised it is scam yet, then perhaps they are indeed gullible enough just to transfer the money.

Here I tried to play with them to figure out where the money is going... first link was to Revolut account going to Romanian grocery store in Germany... and I played dumb and said the link does not work... to my surprise they actually fell for it and gave me payment details of person in UK, which is massive mistake (or it suppose to be if UK police cared but they don't) and could help to track the scammer.

They also sent me very funny looking sales contract via separate e-mail to add perhaps a little bit of "legitimacy" to the whole thing, but again contract has funny mistakes in it, like american spelling of "tires" and apparently car now comes with both winter and summer set, which is very obvious red flag for most UK cars. I was actually surprised they used existing UK company contact details to cover themselves. Obviously, real company had nothing to do with it (hence I covered their name), but they were using it as a cover (also notified the company that their logo and name is being used for scams, which company doesn't seems to be overly bothered about).

In the end there was some last minute threats to "pay now" and "respond now, or we will cancel contract and you will lose the chance to buy this car, and we will sue you because you already signed the contract and now you have obligation to pay".

Interestingly as I said, they actually provide me with matching name and bank account in UK, which is 100% traceable information and police could realistically catch these people. I mean sure - it could be stolen or mule account, but there still has to be real person behind the account number. I really wasn't expecting that and I thought they will use untraceable method like some online payment system (skrill, paypal) or some old-school cheque and cash services like WesternUnion, or maybe crypto currency. But to have matching account and name for real person was a bit bold by them, also I found out he is Romanian national previously convicted of petty crimes in UK, street scams, part of the travellers organised gang, that sort of thing, deported and then caught again. 

Anyhow, because there was realistic trace I also reported to Action Fraud (even thought I knew they are useless and I think really a cover for police so that they can give official looking site for people to get rid of them without need to tell them they won't investigate scams) and immediately got response that there is no actual crime to investigate... so they basically want me to transfer money first before they do anything. I also reported it to facebook, but expectedly... again... they said there is nothing wrong with the advert and it is not against the rules.

So there isn't much to it, I can't really see what else can I do to stop the scams, but I thought I share the story, the language used, what they are asking for and maybe it helps somebody to identify the scams and avoid getting scammed. 

 

I Think The rule of Thumb Regarding Scam Phone Calls is Where at the very Beginning of the Call The Person Says Mostly In An Indian Voice How are You Today..? This First interaction is Largely a Definate Scam Call....Be Very Aware Of Allowing Anyone not Initiated by Yourself to Access your Computer or Laptop. If You fall For The Scam they will want to Download ANYDESK Or other Similar Software Where they Can Infiltrate your Bank Account And whilst There Adjust The HTLM To Change Details of your Balances on your Accounts Whilst YOU cannot see the Screen......Most of these Scams Are located in NIGERIA Lagos and Surrounding Locations Where there is Large Scale Poverty and Degregation...So Beware My Friends..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, RONNIE W HODGEKINSON said:

I Think The rule of Thumb Regarding Scam Phone Calls is Where at the very Beginning of the Call The Person Says Mostly In An Indian Voice How are You Today..? This First interaction is Largely a Definate Scam Call....Be Very Aware Of Allowing Anyone not Initiated by Yourself to Access your Computer or Laptop. If You fall For The Scam they will want to Download ANYDESK Or other Similar Software Where they Can Infiltrate your Bank Account And whilst There Adjust The HTLM To Change Details of your Balances on your Accounts Whilst YOU cannot see the Screen......Most of these Scams Are located in NIGERIA Lagos and Surrounding Locations Where there is Large Scale Poverty and Degregation...So Beware My Friends..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is where I made mistake assuming nationality, turns out it wasn't Indian, nor anywhere from Africa. But there was no interaction over the phone anyway. Note - I used all made-up names, phones, e-mails etc. in my interactions as I didn't want my name to go onto an scam database.

Also these facebook scams are more likely "advance fee scams", not "tech support" scams. That said... there are some similarities between all scams e.g. they target vulnerable people who are easily manipulated. Sometimes I even think "how would anyone fall for that, it is obvious" - but that is the point, they deliberately make scam not difficult to spot, to avoid people with critical thinking and those who are still able to figure it out, the scam being kind lame to begin with ensure that only very gullible people or ones with mental issues fall for them to begin with... basically saving time for fraudsters once they have a hit on their advert. If they made it too believable, then they would end-up with mostly normal people who would call them out right away...

That said I very nearly got myself scammed at the same time I was playing with these scammers - was looking for tool box on same facebook market place and somebody local to me posted one for £85... it was on the cheap side, but not "too good to be true". I think new one is like £300, so it is not really that unrealistic that somebody bought it, it was too big, or too small or something changed and they just looking to sell it for £85 privately. However, the bells started ringing when the guy said "we have them in our warehouse in Bristol, we can ship them"... and I am like "wait what?!" this meant to be private sale locally, from clearly private seller saying it is open box and unused... where is this deal of shipping brand new box from Bristol is coming from, transferring money online without seeing the goods... no thanks.. this must eb a scam as well. 

So again just goes to show that even when you are vigilant and aware of it, there are still scams all around us and really not much separates people from getting scammed. Obviously, £85 would not be same loss as £3800, but apparently there are scams at "any price point"... so item being low value does not mean it is any safer. 

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

That is where I made mistake assuming nationality, turns out it wasn't Indian, nor anywhere from Africa. But there was no interaction over the phone anyway. Note - I used all made-up names, phones, e-mails etc. in my interactions as I didn't want my name to go onto an scam database.

Also these facebook scams are more likely "advance fee scams", not "tech support" scams. That said... there are some similarities between all scams e.g. they target vulnerable people who are easily manipulated. Sometimes I even think "how would anyone fall for that, it is obvious" - but that is the point, they deliberately make scam not difficult to spot, to avoid people with critical thinking and those who are still able to figure it out, the scam being kind lame to begin with ensure that only very gullible people or ones with mental issues fall for them to begin with... basically saving time for fraudsters once they have a hit on their advert. If they made it too believable, then they would end-up with mostly normal people who would call them out right away...

That said I very nearly got myself scammed at the same time I was playing with these scammers - was looking for tool box on same facebook market place and somebody local to me posted one for £85... it was on the cheap side, but not "too good to be true". I think new one is like £300, so it is not really that unrealistic that somebody bought it, it was too big, or too small or something changed and they just looking to sell it for £85 privately. However, the bells started ringing when the guy said "we have them in our warehouse in Bristol, we can ship them"... and I am like "wait what?!" this meant to be private sale locally, from clearly private seller saying it is open box and unused... where is this deal of shipping brand new box from Bristol is coming from, transferring money online without seeing the goods... no thanks.. this must eb a scam as well. 

So again just goes to show that even when you are vigilant and aware of it, there are still scams all around us and really not much separates people from getting scammed. Obviously, £85 would not be same loss as £3800, but apparently there are scams at "any price point"... so item being low value does not mean it is any safer. 

Linas. Don,t Think You Will Be Scammed.. You Are On The ball....Its the Grandmas,s and Grandads i feel so Sorry for Who Whilst having a lifetime of Worldly Experience Fall Far Short of Interpreting these Unscrupulous Low life Computer Scammers..!!!!  Your Right Lots of people Desire a Certain Lifestyle at Others Expense And Sadly it Happens every day in all Walks of life..When i get one of these Calls at Home I usually Start by Saying Excuse me.. But you Have Come Through to A Government Secure Number and i Have to take your I.D To log You in.. In A Flash They're Gone..Try It linas.. It Works..!!!

[Steve]

i have reported many eBay and Marketplace scams.. falls on deaf ears

I have seen scams on Autotrader before, but these are the ones  that are UK based scammers. I tried to buy a 4x4 on autotrader and got a call and it was all fishy.