why im leaving lexus

[LC500]

having spent £500,000 on my lexus collection i have now all but one sold them in the last 6 months with thefts increasing lexus have done nothing to help and the quality is cheapened i am giving them up  going to new brand  its sad day my last lexus goes in 4 weeks]

i will not be coming back the love is over 

[NemesisUK]

Thanks for sharing...

[GMB]

So what are you going to get instead? I would not risk driving an LC500 around here because someone will follow you home and kill you and steal your car, but hey that's England for you, and I am NOT joking!  I must admit none of the new electric cars float my boat so I am sticking with the good old noisy thirsty  ICE V8s. At least no-one knows what they are😄

[talaipwros]

I have to say I am very much considering purchasing a Mazda CX-60, with the convenience and comfort packs.

0% APR £1000 deposit contribution, PHEV 326BHP, made in Japan and almost as good as toyota reliability and no Canbus misery. ( and 20K cheaper)

[NemesisUK]

4 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

I have to say I am very much considering purchasing a Mazda CX-60, with the convenience and comfort packs.

0% APR £1000 deposit contribution, PHEV 326BHP, made in Japan and almost as good as toyota reliability and no Canbus misery. ( and 20K cheaper)

Random

[GMB]

3 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

have to say I am very much considering purchasing a Mazda CX-60, with the convenience and comfort packs.

0% APR £1000 deposit contribution, PHEV 326BHP, made in Japan and almost as good as toyota reliability and no Canbus misery. ( and 20K cheaper)

That sounds like a good option plus people will follow you home and commiserate with you instead of stabbing you😚

[Grumps]

Maxda CX- 60....

I had considered it before placing an order for a new NX. Take a look at the reliability of the CX-60 in the what car survey.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-13924891/Most-reliable-car-brands-REVEALED-2024.html?ico=mol_desktop_moneycars

[Linas.P]

I can't say they did "nothing", but certainly they didn't do enough and most importantly they have not really admitted there is any particular fault on their side. Like they fund CAN BUS plates and now trackers, but they doing it out of "good will"... a phrase I really hate... No you not doing it out of "good will", but because you know you messed-up! So it would be really nice if they came out clean and say - "yes there is a problem and it was our oversight and we will recall ALL the cars and fix them". I mean sure - it is just business looking after it's own bottom line and all out recall would cost LOADS of money, nothing surprising really, but I understand why this would undermine trust in brand.

In other hand I think we need to recognise shocking state of policing in UK, it is 90% fault of policing... they short of resources, but secondly they have institutional issue of just not caring for car crime. For way too long they were told to prioritise other crimes, ignore the cars because they are insured. I am kind of oversimplifying, but "policing" means police itself, laws relating to the car theft, courts and government all the way to the top, whole executive branch basically - it systematically undermines prevention of car theft. So obviously criminals focus on crimes that are least likely to be investigated. Car theft as any other crime is balanced by risk vs. reward... it was same in 90s, but in 90s there was response, there were special squads that continuously cracked down on specifically car theft gangs and theft all but died out by early 2000s... some cars were stolen, but only the ones that were easy to steal and mostly for joy-ride, not for large organised industry. Then the new wave started I would argue around the time of financial crisis, or just after it... but this time there was no response, there was time of "austerity", cuts to police, prioritisation of crime to investigate and that prioritisation was done in such way that car crimes de-fact became decriminalised. And now we have to live with consequences of that.

So from that perspective - I would rather divorce UK, leave the country and drive Lexus happily ever after in countries where they do care about car crime and come down with full force against the criminals, not just merely ignore them. As I said - if it is the theft that is the reason for your dissatisfaction, then Lexus is just 10% at fault, 90% fault is on overall car crime rates and lack of government response. Meaning that situation is unlikely to improve if you move to another brand of premium cars. For example all expensive SUVs without exception are stolen, BMW X5, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Range Rover is notorious for that, even more than Lexus, all small to mid-size SUVs are at high risk of theft, also crossovers. I guess maybe situation is slightly better on things like Bentley Bentayga or Royce Royce Cullinan, but only because they are so expensive and so rare that it would be hard to sell them and they are kind of immediately obvious. How many Cullinan cross the border per day? One every other month? So if one in white was stolen and 7 days later it is crossing the border, then chance it is the stolen one is pretty much 99%. Sure Toyota absolutelly dropped the ball with idiotic CAN BUS weakness, but it only made the cars easier to steal, other brands are also stolen at high rates, they are just little bit harder to steal. So if you continue living in this country and continue to drive premium cars, then I can't see how your situation would improve outside of Lexus.

I think there is another parallel with luxury watches theft, but it would be unfair to blame Patek Phillipe or Rolex, because criminals are targeting their clients... Even then there was actual response from government and I am not sure if it really helped, yet but it seems watch gangs were targeted. That said - there are similarities and differences and that is why repones was different, watch theft was usually classed as violent crime, car theft if usually not violent, watch theft very focused/localised, car theft dispersed nationally, watches not insured, cars insured (from government perspective almost "victimless", which is just stupid!), watches kind of harmless, cars seen as undesirable anyway. 

I guess what I am saying in summary - it sucks to live in UK, especially if you want to have nice things that are desirable and also "flashy", attracts attention. Sadly, cars just happens to fall into that category.

[Phil xxkr]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I can't say they did "nothing", but certainly they didn't do enough and most importantly they have not really admitted there is any particular fault on their side. Like they fund CAN BUS plates and now trackers, but they doing it out of "good will"... a phrase I really hate... No you not doing it out of "good will", but because you know you messed-up! So it would be really nice if they came out clean and say - "yes there is a problem and it was our oversight and we will recall ALL the cars and fix them". I mean sure - it is just business looking after it's own bottom line and all out recall would cost LOADS of money, nothing surprising really, but I understand why this would undermine trust in brand.

In other hand I think we need to recognise shocking state of policing in UK, it is 90% fault of policing... they short of resources, but secondly they have institutional issue of just not caring for car crime. For way too long they were told to prioritise other crimes, ignore the cars because they are insured. I am kind of oversimplifying, but "policing" means police itself, laws relating to the car theft, courts and government all the way to the top, whole executive branch basically - it systematically undermines prevention of car theft. So obviously criminals focus on crimes that are least likely to be investigated. Car theft as any other crime is balanced by risk vs. reward... it was same in 90s, but in 90s there was response, there were special squads that continuously cracked down on specifically car theft gangs and theft all but died out by early 2000s... some cars were stolen, but only the ones that were easy to steal and mostly for joy-ride, not for large organised industry. Then the new wave started I would argue around the time of financial crisis, or just after it... but this time there was no response, there was time of "austerity", cuts to police, prioritisation of crime to investigate and that prioritisation was done in such way that car crimes de-fact became decriminalised. And now we have to live with consequences of that.

So from that perspective - I would rather divorce UK, leave the country and drive Lexus happily ever after in countries where they do care about car crime and come down with full force against the criminals, not just merely ignore them. As I said - if it is the theft that is the reason for your dissatisfaction, then Lexus is just 10% at fault, 90% fault is on overall car crime rates and lack of government response. Meaning that situation is unlikely to improve if you move to another brand of premium cars. For example all expensive SUVs without exception are stolen, BMW X5, Audi Q7, Porsche Cayenne, Range Rover is notorious for that, even more than Lexus, all small to mid-size SUVs are at high risk of theft, also crossovers. I guess maybe situation is slightly better on things like Bentley Bentayga or Royce Royce Cullinan, but only because they are so expensive and so rare that it would be hard to sell them and they are kind of immediately obvious. How many Cullinan cross the border per day? One every other month? So if one in white was stolen and 7 days later it is crossing the border, then chance it is the stolen one is pretty much 99%. Sure Toyota absolutelly dropped the ball with idiotic CAN BUS weakness, but it only made the cars easier to steal, other brands are also stolen at high rates, they are just little bit harder to steal. So if you continue living in this country and continue to drive premium cars, then I can't see how your situation would improve outside of Lexus.

I think there is another parallel with luxury watches theft, but it would be unfair to blame Patek Phillipe or Rolex, because criminals are targeting their clients... Even then there was actual response from government and I am not sure if it really helped, yet but it seems watch gangs were targeted. That said - there are similarities and differences and that is why repones was different, watch theft was usually classed as violent crime, car theft if usually not violent, watch theft very focused/localised, car theft dispersed nationally, watches not insured, cars insured (from government perspective almost "victimless", which is just stupid!), watches kind of harmless, cars seen as undesirable anyway. 

I guess what I am saying in summary - it sucks to live in UK, especially if you want to have nice things that are desirable and also "flashy", attracts attention. Sadly, cars just happens to fall into that category.

Socrates, Aristotle, Plato and the Greek skeptics, all of whom emphasized that things are often very different from what they appear to be and only the trained mind is prepared to see through the way things look to us on the surface (delusive appearances) to the way they really are beneath the surface (the deeper realities of life). Today we call it critical thinking. 

It is said that the world consists of two types of people, the 99% who are expert at identifying problems in other people's work and the 1% who are expert in providing a solution to those problems. So today any technological advance is quickly seen for it's shortcomings completely forgetting the situation that went before. 

According to Home Office figures the number police officers working in frontline roles in England and Wales increased by 5.4% in the 12 months to 31 March 2023, reaching 123,465 full-time equivalents (FTE); this is the highest number of officers in frontline policing roles since directly comparable records began in 2015. Arguments will rage as to, "it's not enough" but if not how many exactly? And whilst these well meaning Bremner, Bird and Fortune dinner party conversations go on it conveniently forgets one essential component, The Perpetrator.! As I understand it in Saudi very little thieving goes on by "enhancing" the consequences without more police. The other consideration is where do these perps originate from? I don't recall there being a blizzard of catalyst, car and other types of theft other than it becoming an epidemic starting a few years ago, maybe someone has the numbers? 

 

[GMB]

 

Anyone seen any of these on the beat in the last few years. I haven't.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

Socrates, Aristotle, Plato and the Greek skeptics, all of whom emphasized that things are often very different from what they appear to be and only the trained mind is prepared to see through the way things look to us on the surface (delusive appearances) to the way they really are beneath the surface (the deeper realities of life). Today we call it critical thinking. 

It is said that the world consists of two types of people, the 99% who are expert at identifying problems in other people's work and the 1% who are expert in providing a solution to those problems. So today any technological advance is quickly seen for it's shortcomings completely forgetting the situation that went before. 

According to Home Office figures the number police officers working in frontline roles in England and Wales increased by 5.4% in the 12 months to 31 March 2023, reaching 123,465 full-time equivalents (FTE); this is the highest number of officers in frontline policing roles since directly comparable records began in 2015. Arguments will rage as to, "it's not enough" but if not how many exactly? And whilst these well meaning Bremner, Bird and Fortune dinner party conversations go on it conveniently forgets one essential component, The Perpetrator.! As I understand it in Saudi very little thieving goes on by "enhancing" the consequences without more police. The other consideration is where do these perps originate from? I don't recall there being a blizzard of catalyst, car and other types of theft other than it becoming an epidemic starting a few years ago, maybe someone has the numbers?

Well... I guess then "the shortage of staff" is not the right excuse anymore. That said - as I mentioned the police part of policing is just one small part of the puzzle. Courts don't take these crimes seriously, the laws do not allow to investigate or arrest on suspicion alone, having tools without stolen car is not grounds for prosecution, having stolen car without tools... turns out also not a ground for prosecution. So in short - it could be the case that now it takes 10 times the police time to just do the paperwork for stolen car case than it took in 90s. Although based on my personal experience they simply refuse to do ANY investigation at all - report stolen car and you will receive an e-mail that your case is closed due to "lack of evidence" before you even get the crime reference number... and "helpful" advise to report it to insurance. That said - how many of them are just "chasing wind", prosecuting somebody for something they may or may not have said online... yet they have no time to look into obvious scams (will drop a quick thread on that soon).

To the point of the punishment, times an times again it was proven that severity of the punishment does not prevent crimes, only the likelihood of being caught (to the resonable extent). In short - we can institute death penalty for car theft, it will matter very little if we do not put the effort in investigating the crimes and catching the perps. That is not to say more severe punishment is not needed, but it needs to go hand in hand with more efficient and more frequent catching of criminals.

One only need to watch youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/@AutomatricsMtrack to know how shocking is the situation. They literally come to hangar with the stolen car in it and 9 times out of 10 police does NOTHING. There were instances where they seen people literally dismantling stolen car (flown the drone to check) and police said they won't break the gates, because they are not allowed to do it by law before they have warrant and because there is "no apparent crime" taking place, they can't get one. Just for them to comeback next day with warrant and find just some bits left of the car and all the criminals long gone. And again - I just want to be clear, police hands are often tied to what they can and can't do, there is much broader issue, in the laws, in the attitude, in the courts. Sometimes police may even do all the jobs they need to do, put the effort etc... just for CPS to let the criminals go, or let them go on suspended sentences or just little fines.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

On 10/8/2024 at 8:45 PM, GMB said:

So what are you going to get instead? I would not risk driving an LC500 around here because someone will follow you home and kill you and steal your car, but hey that's England for you, and I am NOT joking!  I must admit none of the new electric cars float my boat so I am sticking with the good old noisy thirsty  ICE V8s. At least no-one knows what they are😄

Precisely..!!!!!

[hintonwood]

The rot started as far back as 2009. In Basingstoke 12 cars had their tyres slashed overnight. Hampshire police refused to attend saying that they do not attend or investigate car vandalism. A police friend was embarrassed to confirm what they said was true.

That was 12 families and their friends becoming disillusioned with the police and holding them in contempt. I would have been respectful to send a bobby and someone to dust for fingerprints but the senior officers just didn’t care. A PR nightmare for the police and in my view this was the start of the rot.

[Linas.P]

30 minutes ago, hintonwood said:

The rot started as far back as 2009. In Basingstoke 12 cars had their tyres slashed overnight. Hampshire police refused to attend saying that they do not attend or investigate car vandalism. A police friend was embarrassed to confirm what they said was true.

That was 12 families and their friends becoming disillusioned with the police and holding them in contempt. I would have been respectful to send a bobby and someone to dust for fingerprints but the senior officers just didn’t care. A PR nightmare for the police and in my view this was the start of the rot.

Countless such stories and it is really depressing when you encounter it yourself. Really makes one feel powerless and vulnerable. It is good if it is just damage to cars, but it is really scary to think what would happen if you really needed police to help you. They surely investigate murders, sadly for victim is quite obviously already too late.

I have several absurd stories to tell about shocking work, but one really has to experience it themselves to appreciate how quickly the facade crumbles and everyone is left to fend for themselves. 

Just very short summary of few highlights from personal experience (definitely not all):

1. Once I had hit and run, had offending car captured on dashcam, it drove trough red... Anyhow - reported it to police and got respone "it is not in public interest to investigate". I mean sorry - who are you to decide what it is or isn't public interest... I am a public, you are the police and you have to investigate all crimes. Whenever there will be public interest to charge somebody, that maybe be up for debate, but no interest to even investigate that some maniac is driving trough the red without insurance (can't remember now, but it didn't have insurance or MOT, or maybe valid tax, one of the three) and not stopping after crash, when will there be interest? When he runs over kids on the crossing? 

2. My garage got arsoned and some stuff was clearly stolen... few weeks later I found set-off my wheels for sale on facebook... and police again closed the case in probably 2 hours because "no evidence". I mean surely, one would think arson would be a priority case where police would like to follow the leads... but turns out they don't care.

3. Dozen of bikes were stolen from locked compound which had cctv, case as expected closed next day because... yes you guessed it - "no evidence". Despite there being 5 entrances all with cctv and importantly the locks on the internal gate was not broken (meaning only one thing - thieves had keys!)... and when I asked building manager if police came to check or asked for cctv footage he said "nope". That said he was also a "special" person, I told him he needs to replace lock on the gate and he said "but why... it isn't broken?!". Like seriously dude - you can't put 2 and 2 together?

4. Also my family members' car was stolen and when he reported it within like 30 minutes he got email saying "case closed, no evidence". Despite car being parked on the one way road that goes in A406 and there is huge array of cameras exactly on the exit, that do ANPR etc. Try to drive past there without tax and you can be sure to get fine next day... but reviewing that footage to see stolen car leaving... nah too much work. 

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Well... I guess then "the shortage of staff" is not the right excuse anymore. That said - as I mentioned the police part of policing is just one small part of the puzzle. Courts don't take these crimes seriously, the laws do not allow to investigate or arrest on suspicion alone, having tools without stolen car is not grounds for prosecution, having stolen car without tools... turns out also not a ground for prosecution. So in short - it could be the case that now it takes 10 times the police time to just do the paperwork for stolen car case than it took in 90s. Although based on my personal experience they simply refuse to do ANY investigation at all - report stolen car and you will receive an e-mail that your case is closed due to "lack of evidence" before you even get the crime reference number... and "helpful" advise to report it to insurance. That said - how many of them are just "chasing wind", prosecuting somebody for something they may or may not have said online... yet they have no time to look into obvious scams (will drop a quick thread on that soon).

To the point of the punishment, times an times again it was proven that severity of the punishment does not prevent crimes, only the likelihood of being caught (to the resonable extent). In short - we can institute death penalty for car theft, it will matter very little if we do not put the effort in investigating the crimes and catching the perps. That is not to say more severe punishment is not needed, but it needs to go hand in hand with more efficient and more frequent catching of criminals.

One only need to watch youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/@AutomatricsMtrack to know how shocking is the situation. They literally come to hangar with the stolen car in it and 9 times out of 10 police does NOTHING. There were instances where they seen people literally dismantling stolen car (flown the drone to check) and police said they won't break the gates, because they are not allowed to do it by law before they have warrant and because there is "no apparent crime" taking place, they can't get one. Just for them to comeback next day with warrant and find just some bits left of the car and all the criminals long gone. And again - I just want to be clear, police hands are often tied to what they can and can't do, there is much broader issue, in the laws, in the attitude, in the courts. Sometimes police may even do all the jobs they need to do, put the effort etc... just for CPS to let the criminals go, or let them go on suspended sentences or just little fines.

I agree getting caught is one thing the consequences are another. Since the answer to both appears to be none at present then we have to start somewhere and more thought is needed as to a consequence that is longer lasting, easy to implement and socially unacceptable, losing a hand or similar fits that bill!

I've seen some of the YT vids you mention and fascinating they are indeed,especially where Albania is mentioned. I guess it's coincidence that the highest FNO's in UK prisons are from that country 🤔

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I agree getting caught is one thing the consequences are another. Since the answer to both appears to be none at present then we have to start somewhere and more thought is needed as to a consequence that is longer lasting, easy to implement and socially unacceptable, losing a hand or similar fits that bill!

I've seen some of the YT vids you mention and fascinating they are indeed,especially where Albania is mentioned. I guess it's coincidence that the highest FNO's in UK prisons are from that country 🤔

I am not sure I would like to associate any particular nationality with crime, except in cases where we talking about particular individual. 

That said - facts are facts, Albanians are statistically most likely to be imprisoned (from relatively small population it must be said, so the actual number is small, but as ratio from 100k it is number 1).

All in all, British people are taken for a ride by all sorts of gangs, it is not certain nationality fault, it is fault of "policing" which leaves British people vulnerable and therefore convenient targets for all sort of scmbags. One would think it is harder for Albanian to get into UK compared to much closer Germany, Poland or even France that does not require crossing the body of water and is still of visa free travel zone... yet somehow they find ways into UK... And reason is simple - they know they can commit crime and get away with it here. They can't do it elsewhere in Europe, they can't even do it in Albania itself... 

[Phil xxkr]

23 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I am not sure I would like to associate any particular nationality with crime, except in cases where we talking about particular individual. 

That said - facts are facts, Albanians are statistically most likely to be imprisoned (from relatively small population it must be said, so the actual number is small, but as ratio from 100k it is number 1).oddly enough Linas, 

All in all, British people are taken for a ride by all sorts of gangs, it is not certain nationality fault, it is fault of "policing" which leaves British people vulnerable and therefore convenient targets for all sort of scmbags. One would think it is harder for Albanian to get into UK compared to much closer Germany, Poland or even France that does not require crossing the body of water and is still of visa free travel zone... yet somehow they find ways into UK... And reason is simple - they know they can commit crime and get away with it here. They can't do it elsewhere in Europe, they can't even do it in Albania itself... 

Oddly enough Linas big expose in Saturday's Telegraph outlining how Albanians have taken over organised crime in the UK 😕

[Linas.P]

12 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Oddly enough Linas big expose in Saturday's Telegraph outlining how Albanians have taken over organised crime in the UK 😕

Point being - it does not matter who took it over, what matters is that organised crime is rampant and police is either ill equipped or not motivated to fight it. It could be any nationality, basically "insert the nationality here _ _ _ _ _ _ _", so even grouping people by nationality is counterproductive. The issue is not Albanians, the issue is British Policing. It is not like completely closing the border and not allowing anyone to leave or enter will solve anything... obviously "Saturday's Telegraph" (as a brain dead far right publication) will try to imply that is exactly what is needed and I would argue deliberately tries to misinform and detract the people from real problems and real solutions. This is typical case of "when you have a hammer everything looks like nails", they are in principle against immigration, so all the problems must be because of immigration - "it can't be that we doing anything wrong, or not doing it enough... no no no it must be Romanians, Muslims, Albanians... it is obviously French that are at fault for our border security, it is EU that is wrong etc."... Housing - immigrants, NHS - immigrants, shaite roads - immigrants... Please tell me any problem discussed in Saturday's Telegraph that isn't somehow caused by immigrants... One does not need to be very smart to deflect all the issues on others, I mean life is so simple when everything is somebody else's fault... isn't it?

[Mr_Groundhog]

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Point being - it does not matter who took it over, what matters is that organised crime is rampant and police is either ill equipped or not motivated to fight it. It could be any nationality, basically "insert the nationality here _ _ _ _ _ _ _", so even grouping people by nationality is counterproductive. The issue is not Albanians, the issue is British Policing. It is not like completely closing the border and not allowing anyone to leave or enter will solve anything... obviously "Saturday's Telegraph" (as a brain dead far right publication) will try to imply that is exactly what is needed and I would argue deliberately tries to misinform and detract the people from real problems and real solutions. This is typical case of "when you have a hammer everything looks like nails", they are in principle against immigration, so all the problems must be because of immigration - "it can't be that we doing anything wrong, or not doing it enough... no no no it must be Romanians, Muslims, Albanians... it is obviously French that are at fault for our border security, it is EU that is wrong etc."... Housing - immigrants, NHS - immigrants, shaite roads - immigrants... Please tell me any problem discussed in Saturday's Telegraph that isn't somehow caused by immigrants... One does not need to be very smart to deflect all the issues on others, I mean life is so simple when everything is somebody else's fault... isn't it?

We finally agree on something 

[Phil xxkr]

26 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Point being - it does not matter who took it over, what matters is that organised crime is rampant and police is either ill equipped or not motivated to fight it. It could be any nationality, basically "insert the nationality here _ _ _ _ _ _ _", so even grouping people by nationality is counterproductive. The issue is not Albanians, the issue is British Policing. It is not like completely closing the border and not allowing anyone to leave or enter will solve anything... obviously "Saturday's Telegraph" (as a brain dead far right publication) will try to imply that is exactly what is needed and I would argue deliberately tries to misinform and detract the people from real problems and real solutions. This is typical case of "when you have a hammer everything looks like nails", they are in principle against immigration, so all the problems must be because of immigration - "it can't be that we doing anything wrong, or not doing it enough... no no no it must be Romanians, Muslims, Albanians... it is obviously French that are at fault for our border security, it is EU that is wrong etc."... Housing - immigrants, NHS - immigrants, shaite roads - immigrants... Please tell me any problem discussed in Saturday's Telegraph that isn't somehow caused by immigrants... One does not need to be very smart to deflect all the issues on others, I mean life is so simple when everything is somebody else's fault... isn't it?

Are you not being hoisted by your own petard? 😅

[Linas.P]

25 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Are you not being hoisted by your own petard? 😅

We all have our own values, but sometimes you just need to identify bias to stay objective... Is there anyone surprised that Saturday's Telegraph identified some group of immigrants as problem? I am not surprised, every problem for them is immigrant problem. If you want to sit in your silo and believe what Saturday's Telegraph is saying, well it is up to you.

[Phil xxkr]

35 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

We all have our own values, but sometimes you just need to identify bias to stay objective... Is there anyone surprised that Saturday's Telegraph identified some group of immigrants as problem? I am not surprised, every problem for them is immigrant problem. If you want to sit in your silo and believe what Saturday's Telegraph is saying, well it is up to you.

No 😊, I only mentioned the Saturday Telegraph as I happened to read it in the pub Sunday, no doubt other rags have different opinions but not different facts. The petard quip was driven by your words "I mean life is so simple when everything is somebody else's fault... isn't it?" 😊

[Linas.P]

Facts are only relevant in perspective. Facts are facts - as you say... others may have different opinion, but not different facts. Yet if fact is irrelevant, then it is also irrelevant what is their opinion about it. 

In this context we can say "if UK police did their job and caught 100% of all criminals, then it would not matter what nationality they are"... is it not? That UK police is not good at it's job therefore is not a fault of Albanians... and therefore nationality of criminals is A FACT, but it is also IRRELEVANT one.

Also also, I find it kind of ironic... many people said that leaving EU was so that "we can protect our borders". Yet - Albania is not part of EU, never had visa free entry to UK (and even to EU) and now after brexshaite they most certainly have no free access to UK (they never had free access to UK anyway). So what is justification for there being so many of them and so many specifically with criminal record, many of them are likely not even residents of UK who have permanent leave to remain, so in theory can be deported at any time, and on top of that it would be easy to deport them because they cannot seek asylum (Albania is not considered the country where people are prosecuted politically etc.) So what is even brexshaiter excuse for Albanians being to able to enter UK so freely and commit the crimes? It is abundantly clear that I don't believe nationality matters here, but I just can't see how it is being explained why UK is unable to resolve this issue? Lack of border control? But why? I thought the whole point of brexshaite was border control?

Let's assume for a second the troubling group was Polish, or Lithuanian, or German... at least brexshaiter would be able to then have excuse to say "well you see this is all because of EU and open borders legacy", it would be BS, but it would be realistic argument to make even if wrong. But what is the excuse with Albanians, who never ever had free entry to UK?

To simplify my leading question here - if it was true that Albanians are the issue, then it seems UK has all the tools and would be able to resolve this issue almost overnight (actually as mentioned - always had the tools to deal with non-EU immigrants). So why then it isn't resolved? And the lead here - because it is not immigrants, nor specific nationality of immigrants, fault.

Now your counter argument can be, "so what is the solution then"... and the honest answer "it's complicated", but what I can say with certainly IS NOT the solution here is "blaming immigrants for everything".

[GMB]

It all started with them Germans living in Windsor castle.🤥🙀🥲.  But Taylor swift can get a free police escort so they must be doing something right? Odd isn't it when you hardly ever see a copper and then about half a dozen vans full of 'em turn up at a concert.

[Phil xxkr]

38 minutes ago, GMB said:

It all started with them Germans living in Windsor castle.🤥🙀🥲.  But Taylor swift can get a free police escort so they must be doing something right? Odd isn't it when you hardly ever see a copper and then about half a dozen vans full of 'em turn up at a concert.

Erm! It was William the conqueror who founded it in 1100 Gray so them Europeans 😅