Returning / rejecting a Lexus Select car

[Mikey B]

I'll try and keep the points vague to protect my position and the dealership concerned, but has anyone returned a car bought under the Lexus Select scheme?

The dealer didn't put right a few issues before collection which they had agreed to do, but most importantly, I've realised the car has had a fair bit of repaired accident damage.  I'm colour blind so can't really differentiate between different shades but have now had it pointed out that front and back are different shades (sonic titanium) - now its been pointed out I can see it

It also has a lot of interior rattles for a Lexus and is much worse that my old IS despite having only done 25% of the mileage and being 4 years newer - I'm thinking that this car has had a hard life or possibly a dubious past

Does anyone actually know what the criteria is for a car to be sold under the select scheme?  I was a bit naive and assumed accident damage / previous repairs would have excluded it from being "approved"

[Spock66]

Are you still within the 30-day / 1,000 mile return period?

[Mikey B]

8 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

Are you still within the 30-day / 1,000 mile return period?

Today is day 19 and I think we have covered about 400 miles, so yes, within the return period, but having read the terms I can only return it to swap it with something the same / more expensive at the same center - they do not have anything else I'm really interested in 😞

[Spock66]

I think the first step would be to inform the dealer principal in writing that you are rejecting the car and listing the defects.

[Phil xxkr]

42 minutes ago, Mikey B said:

I'll try and keep the points vague to protect my position and the dealership concerned, but has anyone returned a car bought under the Lexus Select scheme?

The dealer didn't put right a few issues before collection which they had agreed to do, but most importantly, I've realised the car has had a fair bit of repaired accident damage.  I'm colour blind so can't really differentiate between different shades but have now had it pointed out that front and back are different shades (sonic titanium) - now its been pointed out I can see it

It also has a lot of interior rattles for a Lexus and is much worse that my old IS despite having only done 25% of the mileage and being 4 years newer - I'm thinking that this car has had a hard life or possibly a dubious past

Does anyone actually know what the criteria is for a car to be sold under the select scheme?  I was a bit naive and assumed accident damage / previous repairs would have excluded it from being "approved"

How did you pay for it? If you don't hold your nerve and return now for full restitution of monies paid you will forever be unhappy with the car until the day you get rid6🙁

[HPS13]

Have you read the consumer rights act 2015? 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives you the right to ask for a full refund in the first 30 days after buying any product that proves to be faulty, including a new or used car. The law also provides protection for servicing and repair work that renders your car faulty.

[Phil xxkr]

23 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

Have you read the consumer rights act 2015? 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 gives you the right to ask for a full refund in the first 30 days after buying any product that proves to be faulty, including a new or used car. The law also provides protection for servicing and repair work that renders your car faulty.

Exactly, but Mike B needs to be equally sure of what is described as a fault? For example the paint mis-match is this a fault? Unless it was sold as original paint indicating no scrapes involved. And I would definitely pay for a car history check before I approach the dealer. 

[Tickedon]

Do you have it documented in writing what the dealer had agreed to fix - and didn't before you took ownership? What conversation have you had about those issues and getting them resolved?

As Philp says, you need to try and identify a 'fault' that would allow you to reject the car. Car dealers are under a duty to disclose relevant information - so if you can surface more details about the accident and repairs, that may help.

The Lexus central service and vehicle history might help you. If you have your car linked up to your Lexus account properly, you can see a history of past repairs and services (assuming the dealer's teams recorded them properly). I used this history to resolve a much more minor issue and concern with a car I'd bought from a Lexus dealer used. 

[cadman2k]

exchange-policy-terms-and-conditions (3).pdf

I had to use this once in the past.

(Terms and conditions attached)

I had to wait till very close to the 30 day limit but told them about 2 weeks in. You do not need to justify an exchange under the scheme. You just need to advise the dealer that you want to return/exchange the car.

You do need to exchange the car for a same priced vehicle or one of more value (that is as available and  in stock at the same dealer)

Depending on your dealer, I had heard from someone who got their dealer to pull across a car from another dealership (from their wider group stock) 

Hope this helps

[Linas.P]

On 9/1/2024 at 11:20 AM, Mikey B said:

I was a bit naive and assumed accident damage / previous repairs would have excluded it from being "approved"

I am not going to comment more on the part whenever you can do it, I think it has been already comprehensively answered - yes you can and you should. If they have agreed to do things before the sale and fail to do them, you can absolutelly reject the car, or insist for them to be fixed, but I guess in your case not the option, they can't really "un-crash" the car.

My answer is more towards "Used Approved" or "Lexus Select"... yes sadly it is absolutelly empty marketing term not worth the paper it is written on, it is basically used to make people feel better about buying what is simple "used car they PX'ed from someone". I guess to be fair it comes with some nice bits, like 12month/10,000 miles warranty and road assistance from AA, but when you think about it - they have statutory duty to warranty the car anyway, so it doesn't give anything extra really. Assuming the car they sold you broken down with pre-existing condition, they would still be on the hook to reimburse you for recovery, which outside of AA scheme probably would cost them more... and they would still need to put the car right. Again, not being totally negative - I guess it is nice way of informing customer that they have rights, and instead of allowing customers to fall back onto their statutory rights and making whole deal sour, Lexus figured out the way to provide same protections, but make them sounds like extra "services" that they include just because they are so great and giving positive felling even when something goes wrong. It is one thing to go to dealer ready for war stating they sold you lemon and saying that they have statutory duty to repair it, or you will sue them... and it is much more nice to call them-up and say "hey here is my warranty number, I have this issue which I believe falls under warranty and I would like to book an appointment to get it assessed"... "sure no problem sir"... EXACTLY same thing in the, but it sounds so much more pleasant. So as sad as it is "Lexus Select" is literally just a marketing term to make you feel better and give you maybe a false sense of security. It certainly does not come with ANY conditions on the quality of the car you getting, they do have some absolute limits, I believe they can't sell cars over 10 years old or over 100k miles, nor the ones that have been declared total loss in the past (written-off), but that isn't much. They do claim to do whatever 88, or 144 points VISUAL inspection, but that in my experience doesn't mean much.

My personal experience (which I have already told few times)... Bought used approved RC, don't mind naming the dealer - it was Lexus Reading. The car was just very good deal, fully equipped with every optional extra, cheap for it's age and mileage, but kid of tired for 2.5 years old car. Many stone chips, seat bolster worn trough completely and I am confident it was smokers car, despite salesman categorically refusing to acknowledge that. I did comment on all the issues and tried to negotiate the price down, but they would not budge on price. In the end we reached the deal which I thought was fair - they agreed to address all the issues, including new "pre-sales" inspection... the thing that turns any turd into "Lexus Select" car. My particular concern was brake discs that looked very tired, grooved and lipped. Good to me, I took notes of everything we agreed and send them e-mail asking to acknowledge it and stating I am sending the deposit conditional on those things being fixed. They acknowledged it and that was about it.

However, they didn't really addressed most of the issues. The stone chips were not really touched-up, the car was not polished/detailed, they fixed the seat bolster, but really di bad job, both texture and shade of the colour was off, they didn't replace A-pillar cover which they instead was "scratched", despite it clearly being burn marks from cigarette and now I know for certain that it was burn marks. I nearly refused the car for that on the day of pick-up, but they said they simply could not get replacement part in time for pick-up, but will mail it to me (for me to fit! but added that if I am not happy to do it, then they will do it during next service). I wasn't quite happy with all the "Lexus Select Approved" repairs, but it was still good deal and I kind of persevered with it. I got set fixed properly for £100, it did detail car myself and filled all the stone chips properly and I did manage to remove the smell eventually. 

Anyhow, where all the card house fell to the ground was ~9 month later when I had issue with the seat, it was warranty job so no issues there, but when I bought the car for warranty another Lexus dealer I asked to also check the brakes as they were squealing, and they told me the car has no brakes... literally no pads left - 1mm front and metal on metal rear. And I barely covered 2,700 miles, because this was covid period. Now I go back to Lexus Reading saying - "look, I asked you to check brakes when I bought the car, have you done it"... "nope, you must have drove very aggressively, it has been 9 month since you bought the car"... "sure, but I only drove 2,700 miles and I don't believe it was possible to wear out the pads completely". Turns out they have not done pre-sales inspection again and had inspection from September, where I bought the car in November and picked it up in December. And September inspection already said "3-4mm left" and car had 2,000 less miles then compared to when I bought it. So it was really closer to 5,000 miles driven on 3mm of the pad... and that is more likely to result in 1mm remaining. Not to mention 2000 of them were likely harsh test drivers by potential buyers.

Point I am getting to - "Lexus Select Approved" was completely happy to sell me the car without brakes and 3mm remaining was not something "below expectation" for them... for the part that costs maybe £10 for them directly from Lexus. Discs were also worn below minimum thickness. And even then they refused to replace them... only when Lexus UK got involved they finally agreed, but only under condition that they do it, but they would not budge on work being carried out by another Lexus dealer. 

To the same point - do you know that Lexus dealer has a right to stamp the service book for the missing services? Yep you heard that right, they can inspect the car and if they think it "meets their standard", they can simply stamp it saying all the maintenance was done, even if car has never been serviced at the dealer. Sure they sort of take responsibility for it then, but that is borderline fraud... and considering that 3mm of pad left "meets the standard"... I really have some questions about what they passing as "approved car" and what "meets the standard" for marking service book.

Now ... just to be clear I am not saying Lexus dealers are worse than any other dealer... not at all... just that they are exactly as any other dealer, selling used cars is business with tight margins and they cut same corners, the only difference they likely going to be there next year and they won't "go out of business" after selling few shoddy cars. But they should be treated with same car as any other used car salesman, including when buying "Used Approved" from them. 

In short - you not naive, it is just their marketing terms that are specifically designed to give you false sense of security and basically catch you out exactly as they did... because those terms are deliberately made vague... where they not promise anything, but any reasonable person would expect it from them. Like car not being previous accident repair... nope - does not say anything that it wont... just that their "authorised repair centre has carried out approved repair on it and can confirm car no meets their standards that they only enforce themselves".

[Mikey B]

Thanks for all the useful comments here 

To expand a little more - the dealership have been in contact after I escalated the issues to the sales manager - they have been very apologetic (staff member l was dealing with has apparently left).  They have said they will collect the car from me to correct the outstanding issues which is all good, but still leaves me with a car that has past accident repair damage not repaired to a great standard.

I have raised this with them and they were pretty non committal but said they would "look" at the mismatched paint when they have it back.  They did say that it must have been "OK" as the car was sold under select so would be considered an acceptable repair.  They did also say I could look at the 30 day exchange offer but this model is fairly unusual so they have nothing similar so change it with (specific feature on only this model which I need)

To their credit they were very keen to collect and put right the outstanding points although the cynical side of me thinks this is so they can push the mileage up and put me outside of the 1000 mile exchange (I'm over 100 miles from the dealership so picking up and returning could add 250 miles which would put me close / on 1K since collection)

 

[Mikey B]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:08 AM, Linas.P said:

 

My answer is more towards "Used Approved" or "Lexus Select"... yes sadly it is absolutelly empty marketing term not worth the paper it is written on,

100% this - I have realised I could have just bought a car from a car supermarket, driven it to Lexus for the service and application of select warranty and been better off - there appears to be little guarantee of quality through the select programme 

[Mikey B]

On 9/1/2024 at 2:42 PM, cadman2k said:

exchange-policy-terms-and-conditions (3).pdf 117.17 kB · 7 downloads

I had to use this once in the past.

 

I would consider an exchange but its not realistic as they have nothing similar - in fact there are only a few in the UK.  The dealer is part of a group and they have nothing the same in all their group stock either so the exchange plan looks a bit rubbish really as its pretty restrictive (unless you just decide you don't like the colour or something so want to swap)

[Mikey B]

On 9/1/2024 at 1:40 PM, Tickedon said:

Do you have it documented in writing what the dealer had agreed to fix - and didn't before you took ownership? What conversation have you had about those issues and getting them resolved?

As Philp says, you need to try and identify a 'fault' that would allow you to reject the car. Car dealers are under a duty to disclose relevant information - so if you can surface more details about the accident and repairs, that may help.

The Lexus central service and vehicle history might help you. If you have your car linked up to your Lexus account properly, you can see a history of past repairs and services (assuming the dealer's teams recorded them properly). I used this history to resolve a much more minor issue and concern with a car I'd bought from a Lexus dealer used. 

Dealer fixing the outstanding issues is now OK as they have agreed and apologised for this - I dont doubt they will do and they appear to want to resolve this. - my bigger issue is the past accident damage which I dont think is resolvable.

I have the V5 and have accessed the online history - there are quite a few entries beyond servicing which just state "repair" - I called the original dealer who entered these and they have refused to tell me what they were for and said they will not disclose anything other than routine servicing........however......he did tell me they have no body shop so if the car has had bodywork repairs it wasn't done by them.  What I really need is to understand how major (or not) the repairs were but so far no way of establishing that

[Phil xxkr]

2 minutes ago, Mikey B said:

Dealer fixing the outstanding issues is now OK as they have agreed and apologised for this - I dont doubt they will do and they appear to want to resolve this. - my bigger issue is the past accident damage which I dont think is resolvable.

I have the V5 and have accessed the online history - there are quite a few entries beyond servicing which just state "repair" - I called the original dealer who entered these and they have refused to tell me what they were for and said they will not disclose anything other than routine servicing........however......he did tell me they have no body shop so if the car has had bodywork repairs it wasn't done by them.  What I really need is to understand how major (or not) the repairs were but so far no way of establishing that

You are destroying what equity you have in the car when you get come to sell on if you don't hand back! 

[Mikey B]

2 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

You are destroying what equity you have in the car when you get come to sell on if you don't hand back! 

I "know" the best / right action is to just hand it back, but I want to be 100% sure I can just walk away from this and not get drawn into a protracted debate - As I see it I have to have a reason to hand it back which if they argue that the repair is to a standard accepted by Lexus and they have (or have shown willingness) to put the other points right does that leave me exposed

[Phil xxkr]

40 minutes ago, Mikey B said:

I "know" the best / right action is to just hand it back, but I want to be 100% sure I can just walk away from this and not get drawn into a protracted debate - As I see it I have to have a reason to hand it back which if they argue that the repair is to a standard accepted by Lexus and they have (or have shown willingness) to put the other points right does that leave me exposed

No doubt you have legal cover via your insurance try that. 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

No doubt you have legal cover via your insurance try that. 

How is insurance provided legal cover going to work on car purchase? That is not what it is for, it is for cases where you get sued after accident, or for cases where you want to sue after accident (e.g. in cases of personal injury), basically so you don't get into situation where you have to go to injury claims lawyer where they take percentage of your claim after it is successful (well they still take percentage, but that is what "legal cover" covers for you).

1 hour ago, Mikey B said:

 my bigger issue is the past accident damage which I dont think is resolvable.

Try so good bodyshop, or even detailer - they will know what to check, but you already said paint colour does not match (which is expected for Sonic Titanium colour - it is hard to match, because it has a lot of metallic flakes in it, so it is not so much that colour is different, but it could be the case that metallic flakes are different shape, size, or simply when it was sprayed they fell "wrong way" on the paint, so it reflects light differently giving impression it is different colour, these paints are extremely difficult to match and blend). In theory it may even be free - just say you have mismatching paint and want quote for how much it would cost to repair, you can even say you getting quote for dealer who sold it for you (because that is kind of true) and you can mention that it would be good if they could check if there is not other damage and that quality of repair itself is not compromised somewhere. That said the only fix here is just to repaint the car again which won't be cheap.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

How is insurance provided legal cover going to work on car purchase? That is not what it is for, it is for cases where you get sued after accident, or for cases where you want to sue after accident (e.g. in cases of personal injury), basically so you don't get into situation where you have to go to injury claims lawyer where they take percentage of your claim after it is successful (well they still take percentage, but that is what "legal cover" covers for you).

Try so good bodyshop, or even detailer - they will know what to check, but you already said paint colour does not match (which is expected for Sonic Titanium colour - it is hard to match, because it has a lot of metallic flakes in it, so it is not so much that colour is different, but it could be the case that metallic flakes are different shape, size, or simply when it was sprayed they fell "wrong way" on the paint, so it reflects light differently giving impression it is different colour, these paints are extremely difficult to match and blend). In theory it may even be free - just say you have mismatching paint and want quote for how much it would cost to repair, you can even say you getting quote for dealer who sold it for you (because that is kind of true) and you can mention that it would be good if they could check if there is not other damage and that quality of repair itself is not compromised somewhere. That said the only fix here is just to repaint the car again which won't be cheap.

For the avoidance of doubt :

"However, motor legal expenses cover isn’t just for accidents; it can also provide you with protection if you are charged with a motoring offence, or support you in any legal difficulties you face when you’re selling or buying a car." 

[Spock66]

I doubt they will address the paint mismatch issue so I would continue to push for a refund, otherwise you will never be happy with the car.

[Mikey B]

1 hour ago, Spock66 said:

I doubt they will address the paint mismatch issue so I would continue to push for a refund, otherwise you will never be happy with the car.

Completely agree - I can't see how they can correct the mismatch issue without a full or at least significant respray which I cant see will be cost effective for them - my concern is if they refuse a rejection it appears that a "cosmetic" defect is not a cause for rejection so if I can't get their agreement to take it back then I may be stuck.

I also spoke direct to Lexus UK who have confirmed that repaired cars are acceptable to be sold as select - I've pushed them to confirm what kind of repair is acceptable and to what standard it needs to be completed

[Tickedon]

8 hours ago, Linas.P said:

How is insurance provided legal cover going to work on car purchase? That is not what it is for, it is for cases where you get sued after accident, or for cases where you want to sue after accident (e.g. in cases of personal injury), basically so you don't get into situation where you have to go to injury claims lawyer where they take percentage of your claim after it is successful (well they still take percentage, but that is what "legal cover" covers for you).

I’m afraid this is entirely wrong, as Philip has already pointed out. 

Legal insurance cover is often a free addition or small cost £20-30 per year included with many different types of insurance (motor, home, buildings etc.) and covers a wide range of situations (including consumer and employment issues typically) - the normal requirement is their legal team think you have at least a 51% chance of winning any claim. 

[Phil xxkr]

9 hours ago, Tickedon said:

I’m afraid this is entirely wrong, as Philip has already pointed out. 

Legal insurance cover is often a free addition or small cost £20-30 per year included with many different types of insurance (motor, home, buildings etc.) and covers a wide range of situations (including consumer and employment issues typically) - the normal requirement is their legal team think you have at least a 51% chance of winning any claim. 

 

9 hours ago, Tickedon said:

I’m afraid this is entirely wrong, as Philip has already pointed out. 

Legal insurance cover is often a free addition or small cost £20-30 per year included with many different types of insurance (motor, home, buildings etc.) and covers a wide range of situations (including consumer and employment issues typically) - the normal requirement is their legal team think you have at least a 51% chance of winning any claim. 

Thanks Al, and that's entirely the point, the very threat of long drawn out expensive action at no cost to the plaintiff has a tendency to focus the mind towards the least line of resistance 😎, having said that the statement from Lexus re previous damage is an important one and everyone should take note of this when considering purchasing any vehicle new or not. 

[cadman2k]

Did you decide to keep it or exchange it?

Did you say what model Lexus it was?

Dealers are limited to what they have available as good cars in in high demand.

Hybrids in general are in high demand

[Crazy Harry]

On 9/4/2024 at 12:53 PM, Mikey B said:

Dealer fixing the outstanding issues is now OK as they have agreed and apologised for this - I dont doubt they will do and they appear to want to resolve this. - my bigger issue is the past accident damage which I dont think is resolvable.

I have the V5 and have accessed the online history - there are quite a few entries beyond servicing which just state "repair" - I called the original dealer who entered these and they have refused to tell me what they were for and said they will not disclose anything other than routine servicing........however......he did tell me they have no body shop so if the car has had bodywork repairs it wasn't done by them.  What I really need is to understand how major (or not) the repairs were but so far no way of establishing that

Most Lexus dealers ( if not all ) don't have their own ‘bodyshop’, they will have access to a lexus approved repair center, as an example Lexus Sheffield use somewhere in Doncaster.