Is300h Fsport MOT (NCT) fail , rear discs

[Colinb623]

Well at long last , a let down:(

Failed the NCT yesterday on my 2016 F sport , rear discs require replacing.  Flew it on everything else. To be honest the rear discs dont even look that bad . But seemingly insufficient contact on the inner side of the rears with the pad. Anyhow , I managed to get a good deal on a set of rear discs and pads online (150euro all in ) , I'll replace when I get a free day .

100kmiles on the original rear discs before a fail isn't bad in my eyes either. 

The joys of motoring 

[Notamech]

Let me know how it goes. I plan to do my rears as well but am a bit scared frankly and coulduse tips from people who have done it. I did rears on the wifes jazz recently and it was a complete nightmare. I didn't anticipate bolts being stuck. I managed to break the slide pin bolt with half of it stuck in the slide pin. Had to urgently source a replacement over the weekend. Another issue was lack of space - there was no space to fit a socket to undo the carrier bracket bolts and you need decent leverage to undo these. Then i stripped the screws that hold the disc and they had to be drilled out. Fortunately I dont think lexus uses screws to hold the disc so that should make it a bit easier. Overall The fronts were so much easier and a breeze to do vs the rears. So haven't yet attempted doing the rears on my is300h yet.

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Notamech said:

Let me know how it goes. I plan to do my rears as well but am a bit scared frankly and coulduse tips from people who have done it. I did rears on the wifes jazz recently and it was a complete nightmare. I didn't anticipate bolts being stuck. I managed to break the slide pin bolt with half of it stuck in the slide pin. Had to urgently source a replacement over the weekend. Another issue was lack of space - there was no space to fit a socket to undo the carrier bracket bolts and you need decent leverage to undo these. Then i stripped the screws that hold the disc and they had to be drilled out. Fortunately I dont think lexus uses screws to hold the disc so that should make it a bit easier. Overall The fronts were so much easier and a breeze to do vs the rears. So haven't yet attempted doing the rears on my is300h yet.

Cost me £355 all in to have rear discs and pads changed at Lexus if you don't fancy doing it yourself. I'd check first though as they said to me that was some sort of fixed cost deal they do. 

[IS300FSPORT]

Replacing the rear disc is not a difficult job however you need to have a bit of knowledge on how to deal with a potential problem should you run into it.

Always do one side first taking a picture for reference if it helps with reassembling.

*Ensure handbrake is off & front wheels are chocked.  You need the handbrake off to be able to remove the disc, if the handbrake is on the shoes act like a clamp against the inside of the brake disc. DO NOT FORCE THE DISC OFF! Or you risk breaking a spring & the shoes will fall apart! Believe me you will have a bad day if that happens as it's a head scratcher trying to put it all back together. 

Tip Wirebrush the bolts if corroded, & ensure the socket is fully on the bolt to avoid stripping the bolts & use a penetrating oil to avoid snapping any bolts. 1/2 breaker bar or ratchet is far better than the 3/8 ratchet you can get more torque in. Sometimes heat is required but that's a last resort. Once the disc is off use a can of brake cleaner to remove the brake dust from the shoes & connected components it will prolong the life & helps with the operation of moving parts.

A M8 X 1.25 Bolt - will assist with removing the disc from the shoes. However if there is friction & the disc still refuses to come off remove the rubber inspection plug & using a light look for a star wheel to adjust the shoes inwards to free off the disc. Count the number of turns if you want to set it back to how it was however once the new disc is on you will need to readjust the star & reapply the handbrake to ensure the shoes are tight enough to hold the car on a hill. There should be slight friction with the handbrake off. Note this is what takes time to avoid an MOT failure because your handbrake is either v loose & won't hold the vehicle on a hill or overly tightened will result in brake shoes wearing quickly & the brakes binding. You can always readjust at a later date though if your MOT is a while off, as once the disc & pad & caliper carrier is assembled you just need to remove the rubber inspection plug to adjust the shoes.

Regrease the slider pins & cleaning the corrosion from the caliper carrier & clips is really important. 

The piston is push in type.

Hope this helps.

 

 

[Notamech]

1 hour ago, IS300FSPORT said:

Replacing the rear disc is not a difficult job however you need to have a bit of knowledge on how to deal with a potential problem should you run into it.

Always do one side first taking a picture for reference if it helps with reassembling.

*Ensure handbrake is off & front wheels are chocked.  You need the handbrake off to be able to remove the disc, if the handbrake is on the shoes act like a clamp against the inside of the brake disc. DO NOT FORCE THE DISC OFF! Or you risk breaking a spring & the shoes will fall apart! Believe me you will have a bad day if that happens as it's a head scratcher trying to put it all back together. 

Tip Wirebrush the bolts if corroded, & ensure the socket is fully on the bolt to avoid stripping the bolts & use a penetrating oil to avoid snapping any bolts. 1/2 breaker bar or ratchet is far better than the 3/8 ratchet you can get more torque in. Sometimes heat is required but that's a last resort. Once the disc is off use a can of brake cleaner to remove the brake dust from the shoes & connected components it will prolong the life & helps with the operation of moving parts.

A M8 X 1.25 Bolt - will assist with removing the disc from the shoes. However if there is friction & the disc still refuses to come off remove the rubber inspection plug & using a light look for a star wheel to adjust the shoes inwards to free off the disc. Count the number of turns if you want to set it back to how it was however once the new disc is on you will need to readjust the star & reapply the handbrake to ensure the shoes are tight enough to hold the car on a hill. There should be slight friction with the handbrake off. Note this is what takes time to avoid an MOT failure because your handbrake is either v loose & won't hold the vehicle on a hill or overly tightened will result in brake shoes wearing quickly & the brakes binding. You can always readjust at a later date though if your MOT is a while off, as once the disc & pad & caliper carrier is assembled you just need to remove the rubber inspection plug to adjust the shoes.

Regrease the slider pins & cleaning the corrosion from the caliper carrier & clips is really important. 

The piston is push in type.

Hope this helps.

 

 

Thanks. Have you done the rears yourself? Is there space to fit a socket to remove the carrier bolts? I struggled with this on the jazz and somehow managed to get the socket on at an angle but that wasnt ideal and the edges of the bolt head are now stripped (but it still turns.will replace it next time). I later realised that an open ended spanner would be a better choice but wont provide enough leverage. I did buy some additional tools now though so i should be able to extend my spanner with a braker bar if that is needed. But would prefer if i can fit a socket on to these bolts as i would prefer to torque them back to spec when putting them back together. Which i cant do with a spanner.

[IS300FSPORT]

27 minutes ago, Notamech said:

Thanks. Have you done the rears yourself? Is there space to fit a socket to remove the carrier bolts? 

I did the brakes all around & I don't recall running into a problem because of clearance. The front brakes caliper carriers are easier to remove as you can turn the wheel towards you  to get a Breaker bar in to remove the bolts, but with the rears you don't have that option.

If your bolts are super tight you need to jack the rear up high enough with axle stands in place, get underneath to get clearance with a breaker bar for extra leverage & abit of muscle, 1/2 ratchet with a socket will stand up to a few hammer hits better than 3/8.  or just invest in a power tool with extension bars I purchased a Milwaukee stubby impact driver a while back & it's got me out of trouble many times not cheap but makes life so much easier when removing wheel nuts and bolts around the cars I work on it pays itself of after a couple of uses (so I tell myself)  I dont recommend using a spanner your more likely to strip the bolts. 

[Notamech]

4 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Cost me £355 all in to have rear discs and pads changed at Lexus if you don't fancy doing it yourself. I'd check first though as they said to me that was some sort of fixed cost deal they do. 

Thats not bad considering the parts themselves are around £200 from lexus. I can find them on eBay slightly cheaper though and i like learning and trying DIY out myself gives me a chance to inspect other components nearby.

While i hope lexus will do a good job my experience with indies has been bad. The rear brakes on my wifes jazz was done just about a year ago but the brakes were sticking so i decided to take a look. Turns out they used copper grease on all components instead of the correct silicone based high temp grease on the pins causing it to get sticky. Also one of the brake pads was stuck and not moving freely the garage should have ideally filed the ears down and ensured the pads slide freely in the hardware. I did a thorough job myself and am happy with the outcome. It doesnt squeak anymore nor is it sticky. Also this garage gave me an advisory on this years MOT saying the tie rod end rubber boots had perished. I cleaned it and nothing...its all fine no tears...makes me wonder how many people get duped like this.

I also sprayed down all the rubber suspension components and bushings with silicone to keep the rubber supple which no one else will do.

 

 

[Notamech]

4 minutes ago, IS300FSPORT said:

I did the brakes all around & I don't recall running into a problem because of clearance. The front brakes caliper carriers are easier to remove as you can turn the wheel towards you  to get a Breaker bar in to remove the bolts, but with the rears you don't have that option.

If your bolts are super tight you need to jack the rear up high enough with axle stands in place, get underneath to get clearance with a breaker bar for extra leverage & abit of muscle, 1/2 ratchet with a socket will stand up to a few hammer hits better than 3/8.  or just invest in a power tool with extension bars I purchased a Milwaukee stubby impact driver a while back & it's got me out of trouble many times not cheap but makes life so much easier when removing wheel nuts and bolts around the cars I work on it pays itself of after a couple of uses (so I tell myself)  I dont recommend using a spanner your more likely to strip the bolts. 

Thanks i plan to attempt this soon. Hopefully like you say i should be able to get a socket on there. I have an impact wrench - a not so expensive one from amazon. It works fine and i wanted to use this initially but because the socket was on at an angle a power tool would definitely strip the bolt head so did it manually. If theres more space on the IS then using a power tool will definitely make life easier.

[wharfhouse]

7 minutes ago, Notamech said:

Thats not bad considering the parts themselves are around £200 from lexus. I can find them on ebay slightly cheaper though and i like learning and trying DIY out myself gives me a chance to inspect other components nearby.

While i hope lexus will do a good job my experience with indies has been bad. The rear brakes on my wifes jazz was done just about a year ago but the brakes were sticking so i decided to take a look. Turns out they used copper grease on all components instead of the correct silicone based high temp grease on the pins causing it to get sticky. Also one of the brake pads was stuck and not moving freely the garage should have ideally filed the ears down and ensured the pads slide freely in the hardware. I did a thorough job myself and am happy with the outcome. It doesnt squeak anymore nor is it sticky. Also this garage gave me an advisory on this years MOT saying the tie rod end rubber boots had perished. I cleaned it and nothing...its all fine no tears...makes me wonder how many people get duped like this.

I also sprayed down all the rubber suspension components and bushings with silicone to keep the rubber supple which no one else will do.

 

 

Yes, always difficult to know whether a job has been done properly by a garage. I can only say I have had no problems with the rear brakes since they were changed by Lexus. I thought £355 was reasonable for new discs and pads (others may disagree) especially as the old ones had done 150k miles - they would likely have gone further other than the sticking caliper. If the new set do the same they will probably outlast the car. I had front discs and pads changed at 80k miles, again they still had some life left in the but as I was having wheel bearings changed decided to get them done. Currently on 150k miles and the replacement fronts are still in good shape. 

[dazzlar]

@Notamech I've done mine as well, I honestly think this is one of the easiest car's to work on I've ever owned.  That  said, I have had several stuck slider pins, one was a nightmare to get out, but patience, plenty of penetrating oil and a bit of heat got it out..  The Parking brake (if you are going to do that) needs a tool to remove the retaining pin (although you can manage if you grind a slit into a large flat head screw driver).  I would buy a set of replacement slider pins and boots and have them ready if you need the car (I think mine were from a company called big red, I can check and confirm, only like £13 for a set I think, it was a while ago, but I've had no issues with there's, only the Lexus ones have failed).  I think it's an M8 bolt to jack the disk off the hub if they are tight.  I needed to on mine.

Also check the condition of the brake pipe where it is held to the body while in there, my rear was a little corroded, not enough for an MOT fail, but worth checking and protecting before it causes an issue.

I checked the material left on the park shoes at 100K, it's not got a lot left, so will be getting changed when I need to do mine next (I suspect I've got about another 10K left on the pads), might be worth doing both if your mileage is similar.  there is a good video on park shoe replacement on youtube (for toytota, but it is the same).

 

 

[Notamech]

7 hours ago, dazzlar said:

@Notamech I've done mine as well, I honestly think this is one of the easiest car's to work on I've ever owned.  That  said, I have had several stuck slider pins, one was a nightmare to get out, but patience, plenty of penetrating oil and a bit of heat got it out..  The Parking brake (if you are going to do that) needs a tool to remove the retaining pin (although you can manage if you grind a slit into a large flat head screw driver).  I would buy a set of replacement slider pins and boots and have them ready if you need the car (I think mine were from a company called big red, I can check and confirm, only like £13 for a set I think, it was a while ago, but I've had no issues with there's, only the Lexus ones have failed).  I think it's an M8 bolt to jack the disk off the hub if they are tight.  I needed to on mine.

Also check the condition of the brake pipe where it is held to the body while in there, my rear was a little corroded, not enough for an MOT fail, but worth checking and protecting before it causes an issue.

I checked the material left on the park shoes at 100K, it's not got a lot left, so will be getting changed when I need to do mine next (I suspect I've got about another 10K left on the pads), might be worth doing both if your mileage is similar.  there is a good video on park shoe replacement on youtube (for toytota, but it is the same).

 

 

Thanks a ton. I agree whatever work i have done so far on the IS300H has been a breeze. And buying spare slide pins and the bolt to undo the disc is a good shout. I did buy spare slidepins when doing the fronts for the Jazz as a precautionary measure after the fiasco with the rears. Unfortunately indies using incorrect grease is far too common i am guessing causing slide pins to seize. I bought something called pro slip on amazon which have different tubes of grease for pins pads and clips am really happy with it as the wifes jazz does not squeal anymore and it always did before even after we got new brakes fit at an indie.

I dont plan on touching the parking brake mechanism i did watch a video and it appears too complicated to do within a few hours. i feel like i will struggle to put it back together.  Im surprised that you have very little material left on the parking brake shoes as they basically only hold a stationary car normally and dont see any wear. Maybe the friction material on these are thin by design? But ive heard that they typically go the distance and should last the life of the car. The only instances i have read of people changing them are when they seize or corrode because people lost the rubber cap for the adjustment hole.

I did have an advisory on my last MOT on brake pipes starting to corrode. I assume these are the metal pipes before they connect to the rubber hose to the caliper? I anyway plan to wire brush and hamerite the dust guards when doing the brakes as they are also heavily corroded and appear to be a pain to replace so will do the brake pipes too.

One more thing im torn between is getting EBC vs original Lexus. The price difference isn't much but sounds like EBC promise less dust and low noise with their ultimax OEM replacement pads. But seem to read mixed reviews with some claiming premature corrosion issues on the disc. Any long term ebc reviews are appreciated. 

[Colinb623]

7 hours ago, dazzlar said:

@Notamech I've done mine as well, I honestly think this is one of the easiest car's to work on I've ever owned.  That  said, I have had several stuck slider pins, one was a nightmare to get out, but patience, plenty of penetrating oil and a bit of heat got it out..  The Parking brake (if you are going to do that) needs a tool to remove the retaining pin (although you can manage if you grind a slit into a large flat head screw driver).  I would buy a set of replacement slider pins and boots and have them ready if you need the car (I think mine were from a company called big red, I can check and confirm, only like £13 for a set I think, it was a while ago, but I've had no issues with there's, only the Lexus ones have failed).  I think it's an M8 bolt to jack the disk off the hub if they are tight.  I needed to on mine.

Also check the condition of the brake pipe where it is held to the body while in there, my rear was a little corroded, not enough for an MOT fail, but worth checking and protecting before it causes an issue.

I checked the material left on the park shoes at 100K, it's not got a lot left, so will be getting changed when I need to do mine next (I suspect I've got about another 10K left on the pads), might be worth doing both if your mileage is similar.  there is a good video on park shoe replacement on youtube (for toytota, but it is the same).

 

 

Can I just ask what you done in relation to adjusting parking brake cog wheel inside hub ? Did you do any adjustments or just leave it as it was and replace discs / pads without any need to adjust ?

 

[HPS13]

The wheel should be turned all the way to the beginning to allow the old disc to be removed easily. 

After you fit the new disc you will need to adjust the wheel so that the brake shoes are making just the slightest of contact with the disc. 

Do you have a new set of brake shoes or just discs and pads? The shoes may be ok but after 100k miles, I'd be tempted to replace these as well since you will have the disc off. 

[Notamech]

Not based on experience but just research....it appears that the disc should come out without having to adjust the parking brake wheel as long as the parking brake is off. But the service manual says that in case it doesnt then you need to turn the asjustment star wheel to release it. Happy for people who have actually done this to chime in @IS300FSPORT @dazzlar

http://zatonevkredit(blocked word)/repair_manuals/raw_content/AWHukXVwrzlLPWuuGKKR

If you turn it all the way then i think it takes 7-8 turns to set it back to the correct tension based on a video i watched. Alternatively you can read the section on adjusting the parking brake in the above service manual.

[Colinb623]

23 minutes ago, HPS13 said:

The wheel should be turned all the way to the beginning to allow the old disc to be removed easily. 

After you fit the new disc you will need to adjust the wheel so that the brake shoes are making just the slightest of contact with the disc. 

Do you have a new set of brake shoes or just discs and pads? The shoes may be ok but after 100k miles, I'd be tempted to replace these as well since you will have the disc off. 

Only doing discs and pads.

So once slight contact with of the inside of the hub is made , do you back it off a few turns then ?

[HPS13]

Personally I leave it when I can feel there is slight contact, as long as there is no brake bind once you put the road wheel back on. 

The way I would suggest is fit the new disc and then adjust the wheel until you feel the brake shoes lock against the disc then adjust the wheel back until the disc is free to rotate. 

 

[Notamech]

4 hours ago, Colinb623 said:

Only doing discs and pads.

So once slight contact with of the inside of the hub is made , do you back it off a few turns then ?

I found this video that sort of explains it on a different lexus car but i reckon the procedure is the same.

https://youtu.be/dTAwhihxj2s

[IS300FSPORT]

If the rear disc refuses to come off with the bolt then it means the handbrake is still holding the brake shoe. Ensure handbrake is off. As explained just adjust the star wheel through the inspection hole until you feel it loosen up, no harm in assisting it with a rubber mallet from behind the disc since your replacing the disc anyway but do not force it off. Its a fairly straightforward job just readjust the shoes until it has a slight bind & your good to go. You can always adjust the handbrake cable from the foot pedal if necesary to take up any slack with a 10mm deep socket. 

Did mine a month before the MOT & no issues with imbalance. The brakes shoes just hold the car on a hill when the handbrake is applied it has no effect to the actual hybrid system or braking functionality.

[J Henderson]

6 hours ago, Notamech said:

Maybe the friction material on these are thin by design?

Definitely.

I replaced mine last month and the new ones weren't really much thicker than those that had been on the car for 13 years/90k miles.

[dazzlar]

Good chat guys, maybe I don't need to change the shoes, that would be a bonus, I hate brake shoes.  My wife has the E-brake on her car, so much easier.

@Colinb623, @HPS13's answer is exactly what I did.  I would add when the disc is off, it's worth cleaning the as much as you can pulling the shoes back (while retained on the springs) to clean and regrease any contact points, including the bowden cable for the park brake (taking care not to leave cake it so dirt gets trapped).

[dazzlar]

13 hours ago, Notamech said:

Not based on experience but just research....it appears that the disc should come out without having to adjust the parking brake wheel as long as the parking brake is off. But the service manual says that in case it doesnt then you need to turn the asjustment star wheel to release it. Happy for people who have actually done this to chime in @IS300FSPORT @dazzlar

http://zatonevkredit(blocked word)/repair_manuals/raw_content/AWHukXVwrzlLPWuuGKKR

If you turn it all the way then i think it takes 7-8 turns to set it back to the correct tension based on a video i watched. Alternatively you can read the section on adjusting the parking brake in the above service manual.

mine came off with no issues, but I did have to adjust it after putting the new disc on.

[skyjaws]

I did rear pads & discs on my F sport a few months back, Only problem i had was with getting the correct parts.

Halfords only had one option at the time for my F-Sport, Only sold the solid discs for my Reg, mine is vented. Had to return the Halfords ones and shop around.

Had to go to GFS car parts that have the correct vented Discs. Delphi pads & discs was under £100 for both but the price might have changed. Euro does have the option for both solid & vented but GFS was far cheaper.

No problems or difficulties from any other car. Did clean up everything and re-grease the sliding pins too.

[Notamech]

I ended up ordering original lexus parts for the rear from eBay. Got it £15 cheaper than the dealer.

[skyjaws]

4 minutes ago, Notamech said:

I ended up ordering original lexus parts for the rear from ebay. Got it £15 cheaper than the dealer.

Well the set is like £200 so anything cheaper than dealer is a bonus, I just went off brand and saved some money, my brakes didn't actually need doing, passed MOT & Lexus inspection but they just looked really bad with rust and wouldn't clear up after many miles, they looked like the car had been sitting for years! purely did them for the looks 😉

[Notamech]

27 minutes ago, skyjaws said:

Well the set is like £200 so anything cheaper than dealer is a bonus, I just went off brand and saved some money, my brakes didn't actually need doing, passed MOT & Lexus inspection but they just looked really bad with rust and wouldn't clear up after many miles, they looked like the car had been sitting for years! purely did them for the looks 😉

Exactly same situation. My brakes seem to still be within spec but just very old and it does groan when im in stop and go traffic like a second after i stop i hear a grunt from the rear.

Might do the fronts as well in a few weeks. Considering EBC for the front as they seem to do low dust pads. My current brakes make a lot of dust on the front. Not sure whether my current pads are original.