Car Road Tax

[Malc1]

52 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

But you can get fresh fish straight out of the sea ! I know 'cos your neighbour is always tell😉ing you off for sticking your rod out of the window.

I use a net ….. the local inter-net and the seagulls get to the fish long before me and then poop all over my cars too 🥵

Malc 

[Malc1]

I’m so close to France I think the seagulls fly over especially to poop on my cars ……. if I had Citroens they’d probably  leave me well alone  😳🤣😂👍

Malc 

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Linas,

I am beginning to wonder where you actually live when you write;

" One can also find good quality food in UK if they know where to look, if they are willing to wake-up 5AM drive 50 miles and go to some sort of farmers or fishers market and buy in bulk, in France you could also do it, but you don't need to. "

I can roll up at any time of day driving 3 mins ,or walking 20 mins to get to Booths where they will quite easily be comparable to anywhere you might shop in France. When in Skipton I can walk to Drake and Macefields butchers and buy meat of any description that will exceed most you can buy in France (not all). If I am staying with my daughter In Hesketh bank I can walk to the local butchers there, Johnsons, and get lovely local Meat produce all butchered on the premises. I could keep going . but why bother. I am sure many other posters on here have similar experiences where they live in the UK. France produce being exceptional   in a quality level and not availaible here in the Uk is a myth. What is not a myth is the size of country , pop density per sq KM and what this means for more localised markets.  Hence France; 643,800 Km 2; Uk 244,370km 2; Pop density France 123 per KM 2 ; UK 277.

These numbers clearly have an effect on how markets develop. and why the UK footfall favours chain supermarkets whereas in France local markets are still very important. However, I have been in many French supermarkets and in terms of quality they offer no significant upside to some UK supermarkets like Waitrose, Booths, and dare I say the continental Lidl and Aldi won't be far behind on some green produce, but clearly not all as their Fresh dept is nonexistent.

Grey,

The example you posted is just one that I remember from French actions to protect their markets. Now if that was really because French produce was better and French consumers were willing to pay more for it then ergo French suppliers would not be forced to be taking those actions to protect their sales has foreign produce would not be bought in any quantity.  So, let's stop talking myth , and think about how consumers actually do behave WHEN they are given choice.

Re: your point about tyres, can't see how it proves anything - tyres made in the country are cheaper in that country. Brigestones probably are cheaper in Japan. Also as I said, they use all sorts of premium tyres, Michelin is probably more popular than say UK, but not like all tyres are just Michelins. That UK has no tyre manufacturers that is UK problem, but back in the day Dunlops and Avons were cheaper in UK, when they were UK made.

I agree that local markets are more important popular in France - I agree. However, I have never had a need to go there, because simple E. Leclerc, Intermarché, Super U or Carrefour has all the fresh, good quality food I would ever want. I can't say the same about Tesco, Asda, Sainsburys or Morrisons... Even a little bit more upmarket MS and Waitrose sells same junk food just for more money. I honestly have never hear or seen shop called Booths (and that is because the nearest one from me is 4 hours drive). I am not saying all food is junk in UK, but ratio of junk:fresh is like 80% to 20%, so I have to find something to eat within say 30% of all products (obviously I eat some junk as well) and another 85% of the offering does not interest me at all. In France it is more like 30% to 70%, 70% being loads of fresh foods, fish, meat etc. and huge range of it, I honestly never find myself in place where I can't find something I want there, everything is nice, everything is fresh and I barely need half of what they have to offer. That again depends on what one is looking for... perhaps many people are quite happy with baked beans, toast bread and they never have any issue shopping in UK, it is down to personal choice.

Again - I am just saying that I have not noticed that French are somehow protective of their foods... I would not want buy baked beans either... my new "favourite" are canned pasta, we always have a laugh with my girlfriend when we see entire shelve full of them in local Sainsbury's "who would buy that"... apparently people do. Or ready made potato mash?! I would have never thought there would be market for that, but there is.

Also... restaurants and cafes... I have eaten out 100s of times in France and in UK... and in UK it is 50/50%... it may be nice or it may be outright disgusting. In France I am yet to found restaurant that wouldn't be anything but exceptional. Perhaps not in the airport Subway, but any independent restaurants are always very good. You can stop in petrol station and have a nice meal, would never dare trying food in British petrol station...

6 hours ago, GMB said:

 

Not so sure about this statement :- "Main point - I was arguing against the statement that French are "nationalists or protective", they are to some degree, but no more than any other nation".

 

I know it was a while ago but...... Protective French practices?  The Gendarmes stood by in another place near Beziers while 50,000 litres of cheap Spanish red was poured from the stainless steel vats into the street. Oh, and they smashed up the aisles in Carrefour where Spanish plonk was on display. Not to mention the burning of tyres on the main roads  and so on.

BTW The picture below is from the Autoroute at Le Boulou where the Spanish border meets the French border ( unmanned ) on the Pyrenees 

The protesters in France said they were demonstrating against unfair competition, as they were unable to match the low price of foreign wine, which caused problems in selling their own products.

Image:A union leader says 'honest workers have decided to revolt'

The activists also smashed up and set fire to a cargo of tomatoes from Morocco.

According to The Telegraph, Frederic Rouanet, the wine growers' union president for the Aude region, said: "It is out of the question to accept the situation as it is.

 

 

"Starting from today, we are going to remove the possibility of buyers being able to get cheap wines from elsewhere... we are going to stop Spanish imports.

"This is the start of an economic war that we are going to wage."

The illicit action also received official backing from Alain Ginies, the vice president of Aude's council, who said: "We have always been close to our wine growers, and we still are today.

"Our two economic strengths at the departmental level are tourism and viticulture."

Balaclava-clad wine terrorists attacked the Biron merchant in Sete overnight, local media reported.

 

 

They cracked open five vats, sending wine gushing into the nearby streets of the port town. Sete is around 20 minutes by car from Montpellier in Languedoc-Roussillon.

Miliants claimed allegiance to the activist winemaker group CRAV, short for Regional Action Committee of Winemakers and sometimes known just as CAV.

It follows an arson attack on offices owned by the Vinadeis wine group. And it shows that anger over imports of Spanish wine has hit breaking point.

 

 

Emergency services arrived on the scene in Sete to contain the spread of wine and stop it from flooding nearby carparks. No one is believed to have been injured.

One CRAV representative told France 3 television in Languedoc, ‘Why did we do it? Because we are never listened to.’

He repeated an oft-cited allegation by the group that some Spanish wine entering France had come from South America. There is no proof.

Farmer protests are often ridiculous, for example in Poland they have destroyed Ukrainian grain in protests... Does that means Polish people are protective of their agricultural products?! Not really, it is just small minority of agitated farmers who thinks they are untouchable, because there is no government in the world that would be able to score political points shooting rubber bullets at their own farmers (even if they deserve that). It would be political suicide to attack farmers... here, in France, in Germany... any country. Somehow it is okey to trash talk bankers, police, military, but farmers and doctors are sacred! So this doesn't really prove much to me. As for wine specifically... Again I can't see the problem here - given a choice I would also prefer to drink French wine almost exclusively over all other wines. There are occasional wine from other countries that I like, but French wine is always "safe choice".

But to balance it out - there are few things I hate in France... for example that nobody collects dog shaite... it is considered acceptable to leave it in the middle of the road, not even acceptable... I don't believe they ever collect it! In other hand horse riders in UK also leave massive piles behind them, I always thought it is bizarre that people can get £1000 fine for tiny dog shaite, but leaving metric ton of horse shaite literally covering entire path side to side is acceptable. 

[GMB]

4 hours ago, DavidCM said:

I don't think the Frogs were much on evidence when the Germans appeared early on in WW2

That's funny!   I don't know who said it but the quote was that the French knew that there was a problem in Ukraine possibly threatening Europe and they were producing factories making white flags in preparation for future actions.    Sorry about that!!!

Charles de Gaulle - lovely grateful fellow.  I should not be saying this but I cannot resist it. I love France ( not so much the French )

[GMB]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I honestly have never hear or seen shop called Booths

It's a bit like Waitrose but cheaper.

[GMB]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

perhaps many people are quite happy with baked beans

On Toast   ---    Only with Tabasco sauce.

[GMB]

34 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In France I am yet to found restaurant that wouldn't be anything but exceptional. Perhaps not in the airport Subway, but any independent restaurants are always very good. You can stop in petrol station and have a nice meal, would never dare trying food in British petrol station...

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, GMB said:

It's a bit like Waitrose but cheaper.

I think funnily enough - France is closer to me than closest Booth... don't feel like missing much!

[GMB]

37 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But to balance it out - there are few things I hare in France

Me too.   Why do people in France Pee at the side of the road in full view of everyone? It's "obligatoire" as they say

[GMB]

Booths do Bitburger beer at a discount! sometimes.

 

 Bitte ein bit!   Yah Danke!

[Jgtcracer]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

It's a bit like Waitrose but cheaper.

I was in a Booths in Windermere if I remember correctly, the most middle class place I have ever been!

Cracking place, all shops should be more like it.  I’d go as far as to say it was a pleasant experience. Shame I’ma few hours away.  Wonder if they do home delivery….

[Jgtcracer]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Me too.   Why do people in France Pee at the side of the road in full view of everyone? It's "obligatoire" as they say

Wait, you don’t do that??? 🤣

[Boomer54]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Re: your point about tyres, can't see how it proves anything - tyres made in the country are cheaper in that country. Brigestones probably are cheaper in Japan. Also as I said, they use all sorts of premium tyres, Michelin is probably more popular than say UK, but not like all tyres are just Michelins. That UK has no tyre manufacturers that is UK problem, but back in the day Dunlops and Avons were cheaper in UK, when they were UK made.

I agree that local markets are more important popular in France - I agree. However, I have never had a need to go there, because simple E. Leclerc, Intermarché, Super U or Carrefour has all the fresh, good quality food I would ever want. I can't say the same about Tesco, Asda, Sainsburys or Morrisons... Even a little bit more upmarket MS and Waitrose sells same junk food just for more money. I honestly have never hear or seen shop called Booths (and that is because the nearest one from me is 4 hours drive). I am not saying all food is junk in UK, but ratio of junk:fresh is like 80% to 20%, so I have to find something to eat within say 30% of all products (obviously I eat some junk as well) and another 85% of the offering does not interest me at all. In France it is more like 30% to 70%, 70% being loads of fresh foods, fish, meat etc. and huge range of it, I honestly never find myself in place where I can't find something I want there, everything is nice, everything is fresh and I barely need half of what they have to offer. That again depends on what one is looking for... perhaps many people are quite happy with baked beans, toast bread and they never have any issue shopping in UK, it is down to personal choice.

Again - I am just saying that I have not noticed that French are somehow protective of their foods... I would not want buy baked beans either... my new "favourite" are canned pasta, we always have a laugh with my girlfriend when we see entire shelve full of them in local Sainsbury's "who would buy that"... apparently people do. Or ready made potato mash?! I would have never thought there would be market for that, but there is.

Also... restaurants and cafes... I have eaten out 100s of times in France and in UK... and in UK it is 50/50%... it may be nice or it may be outright disgusting. In France I am yet to found restaurant that wouldn't be anything but exceptional. Perhaps not in the airport Subway, but any independent restaurants are always very good. You can stop in petrol station and have a nice meal, would never dare trying food in British petrol station...

Farmer protests are often ridiculous, for example in Poland they have destroyed Ukrainian grain in protests... Does that means Polish people are protective of their agricultural products?! Not really, it is just small minority of agitated farmers who thinks they are untouchable, because there is no government in the world that would be able to score political points shooting rubber bullets at their own farmers (even if they deserve that). It would be political suicide to attack farmers... here, in France, in Germany... any country. Somehow it is okey to trash talk bankers, police, military, but farmers and doctors are sacred! So this doesn't really prove much to me. As for wine specifically... Again I can't see the problem here - given a choice I would also prefer to drink French wine almost exclusively over all other wines. There are occasional wine from other countries that I like, but French wine is always "safe choice".

But to balance it out - there are few things I hate in France... for example that nobody collects dog shaite... it is considered acceptable to leave it in the middle of the road, not even acceptable... I don't believe they ever collect it! In other hand horse riders in UK also leave massive piles behind them, I always thought it is bizarre that people can get £1000 fine for tiny dog shaite, but leaving metric ton of horse shaite literally covering entire path side to side is acceptable. 

"Again - I am just saying that I have not noticed that French are somehow protective of their foods."

For clarity I did not actually say that, but I understand why you have done so. I did say "the French are very protective of their markets". I use the word "markets" as stock traders do to indicate their wider economy, not as a shopper would.

Back to your Poland example. In logic you are actually helping my case in one sense ,but not in another. You are being both suggestive and deflective. Suggestive is like this ; "Stephen lives in the UK and weighs 12stones; Linus lives in the UK". There is a suppressed implication that one somehow relates to the other which in fact it does not and this is what we call deflective in that by using an irrelevant statement it deflects from the argument we are trying to establish. Each issue is independent and in the case of Poland as you cite it then actually you would say that market action described is sufficiently suggestive that you would look further to establish if in the larger scheme of things Poland were in fact protective of markets. This of course as nothing at all to do with whether France is so. In that case you would also look further to establish the argument.

So, not conclusive ,but again a building block to take further if we so  wish. I quote;

"

France has taken various actions against the import of foreign goods over the last 20 years, often in response to concerns about unfair competition, health and safety standards, or environmental regulations. However, specific instances and the exact number of actions are not readily available in a single source.

Some notable examples include:

• Agricultural products: France has frequently taken measures to protect its agricultural sector, such as imposing restrictions on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) and certain pesticides.
• Digital services: France has implemented digital service taxes targeting large foreign tech companies to ensure they pay fair taxes on revenues generated within the country.
• Environmental standards: France has enforced strict environmental regulations that sometimes affect the import of goods not meeting these standards."

 

Part of the problem is we are not of a similar age and as such my lens is wider than yours. If I were arguing this issue with my slightly older economically minded brother then I would not be arguing so much as engaging in a mutual nodding contest. From reaching adulthood in the early '70's and becoming more aware of the world around me then over time, to me, France as been synonymous with market protection at govt level and indeed at street level. They are a standout at this and 'always' have been for well over half a century.

[GMB]

OK let me guess......67?

[Malc1]

57 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

From reaching adulthood in the early '70's

sometime's one wonders 😂🤣😁  .................... or is this now the natural decline from that time into older adulthood coming thru '

seriously, yes, us older more mature super Lexus owners of course have a more rational and hearty perception on " life as we know it "  ..............  beam him up Scotty ( or is it Sooty )

 

Malc

[Boomer54]

30 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

sometime's one wonders 😂🤣😁  .................... or is this now the natural decline from that time into older adulthood coming thru '

seriously, yes, us older more mature super Lexus owners of course have a more rational and hearty perception on " life as we know it "  ..............  beam him up Scotty ( or is it Sooty )

 

Malc

Oh come on Eric you know I set that up for you.

Yours Ernie

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

"Again - I am just saying that I have not noticed that French are somehow protective of their foods."

For clarity I did not actually say that, but I understand why you have done so. I did say "the French are very protective of their markets". I use the word "markets" as stock traders do to indicate their wider economy, not as a shopper would.

Back to your Poland example. In logic you are actually helping my case in one sense ,but not in another. You are being both suggestive and deflective. Suggestive is like this ; "Stephen lives in the UK and weighs 12stones; Linus lives in the UK". There is a suppressed implication that one somehow relates to the other which in fact it does not and this is what we call deflective in that by using an irrelevant statement it deflects from the argument we are trying to establish. Each issue is independent and in the case of Poland as you cite it then actually you would say that market action described is sufficiently suggestive that you would look further to establish if in the larger scheme of things Poland were in fact protective of markets. This of course as nothing at all to do with whether France is so. In that case you would also look further to establish the argument.

So, not conclusive ,but again a building block to take further if we so  wish. I quote;

"

France has taken various actions against the import of foreign goods over the last 20 years, often in response to concerns about unfair competition, health and safety standards, or environmental regulations. However, specific instances and the exact number of actions are not readily available in a single source.

Some notable examples include:

• Agricultural products: France has frequently taken measures to protect its agricultural sector, such as imposing restrictions on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) and certain pesticides.
• Digital services: France has implemented digital service taxes targeting large foreign tech companies to ensure they pay fair taxes on revenues generated within the country.
• Environmental standards: France has enforced strict environmental regulations that sometimes affect the import of goods not meeting these standards."

 

Part of the problem is we are not of a similar age and as such my lens is wider than yours. If I were arguing this issue with my slightly older economically minded brother then I would not be arguing so much as engaging in a mutual nodding contest. From reaching adulthood in the early '70's and becoming more aware of the world around me then over time, to me, France as been synonymous with market protection at govt level and indeed at street level. They are a standout at this and 'always' have been for well over half a century.

The farmer protests and destroying agricultural goods are the same in both countries, farmers just do that, sometimes they even destroy their own produce in protests. This is because they are "protected" group within society and never have to face consequences for their actions. Basically what I am saying - they are spoiled. 

All 3 examples given has nothing to do with being protective of the market, actually quite opposite (my opinion only)...

1. I don't want to eat GMO, French don't want to eat GMO, nobody should eat GMO (unless that is the only way to keep certain product alive). So this is not about protecting the market sector, it is about ensuring level playing field and protecting health of consumer and consumer interests. 

2. I wish all countries would tax large internationals to pay fair share of their taxes. Companies like amazon only pay something like 1% effective tax and Bezos is becoming ever richer, same for Crapple, they pay something like 0.2% of effective tax, when I pay closer to 40%, Microsoft is little better, they pay around 8%. Importantly this is not about protecting the market, France don't have their own digital services companies (at least not any notable ones, perhaps the biggest one I worked with was Safran, but they also make plane parts, weapons and generally do government security contracts, they are not competitors to google and alikes). In short, France has no market to protect here, they do not protect any of their products, nor companies here... they just want everyone to pay fair tax, almost feels like all countries would want that.

3. Again - this is environmental protection, it only indirectly protects farmer, but again it protects way more. Of course French farmer growing produce in sustainable way can't compete with say Algerian farmer using pesticides and unsustainable practices that compromises long term sustainability over short term profits. But this is about protecting environment first and foremost, I think we all would agree that environment standards should be strict and enforced... Nobody wants to swim in rivers full of shaite (ohhh wait... ). 

[Boomer54]

23 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

The farmer protests and destroying agricultural goods are the same in both countries, farmers just do that, sometimes they even destroy their own produce in protests. This is because they are "protected" group within society and never have to face consequences for their actions. Basically what I am saying - they are spoiled. 

All 3 examples given has nothing to do with being protective of the market, actually quite opposite (my opinion only)...

1. I don't want to eat GMO, French don't want to eat GMO, nobody should eat GMO (unless that is the only way to keep certain product alive). So this is not about protecting the market sector, it is about ensuring level playing field and protecting health of consumer and consumer interests. 

2. I wish all countries would tax large internationals to pay fair share of their taxes. Companies like Amazon only pay something like 1% effective tax and Bezos is becoming ever richer, same for Crapple, they pay something like 0.2% of effective tax, when I pay closer to 40%, Microsoft is little better, they pay around 8%. Importantly this is not about protecting the market, France don't have their own digital services companies (at least not any notable ones, perhaps the biggest one I worked with was Safran, but they also make plane parts, weapons and generally do government security contracts, they are not competitors to google and alikes). In short, France has no market to protect here, they do not protect any of their products, nor companies here... they just want everyone to pay fair tax, almost feels like all countries would want that.

3. Again - this is environmental protection, it only indirectly protects farmer, but again it protects way more. Of course French farmer growing produce in sustainable way can't compete with say Algerian farmer using pesticides and unsustainable practices that compromises long term sustainability over short term profits. But this is about protecting environment first and foremost, I think we all would agree that environment standards should be strict and enforced... Nobody wants to swim in rivers full of shaite (ohhh wait... ). 

You are confusing personal preferences with outcomes.Moreover PR excuses/rational  for such action don't change the outcomes. If the action taken results in fewer foreign goods and services it is by implication protective.

Mi'lord I had to kill my wife, because she was poisoning me with her awful baking. Judge 'she's still dead and you are still guilty of making her that way'.

Actions and outcomes are what they are. Rational for actions are whatever people want them to be..

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

You are confusing personal preferences with outcomes.Moreover PR excuses/rational  for such action don't change the outcomes. If the action taken results in fewer foreign goods and services it is by implication protective.

Mi'lord I had to kill my wife, because she was poisoning me with her awful baking. Judge 'she's still dead and you are still guilty of making her that way'.

Actions and outcomes are what they are. Rational for actions are whatever people want them to be..

I kind of expected this answer, however I think we are on different sides of the fence here - I support their rationale for doing it, reduction in foreign product is just side effect for me. 

That said I would be hard to argue that big tech should not pay their fair share, or that products that meet and exceed same high standards would not be allowed into France. So I just can't see how this is "protectionism" in it's literal sense. For example US had protectionist quotas on Japanese imported cars. They were not worse than amurican cars (in fact they were better), but they were restricted to quotas to protect amurican car makers (which actually ended-up destroying them) - this is protectionism. Just saying that cars, or any product has to meet standards isn't protectionism in my books, unless foreign product is held to higher standard than your local one - then yes.

[Boomer54]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I kind of expected this answer, however I think we are on different sides of the fence here - I support their rationale for doing it, reduction in foreign product is just side effect for me. 

That said I would be hard to argue that big tech should not pay their fair share, or that products that meet and exceed same high standards would not be allowed into France. So I just can't see how this is "protectionism" in it's literal sense. For example US had protectionist quotas on Japanese imported cars. They were not worse than amurican cars (in fact they were better), but they were restricted to quotas to protect amurican car makers (which actually ended-up destroying them) - this is protectionism. Just saying that cars, or any product has to meet standards isn't protectionism in my books, unless foreign product is held to higher standard than your local one - then yes.

I assert the French are protective. You disagree. You then move to assert that restrictive action is not protective . I would be most interested as would the body for World Trade in hearing what you think is protective.

Oh, excuse me you have said what is protective in terms of US actions. I agree the US is protective.....as well as the French, even though the one has nothing to do with the other. 

 

Restrictive practice is protectionism. The mistake you are making is you don't want to see that, because you assume protectionism is a bad' thing and this is an internal conflict with your view that most French restrictive practice has been 'fair' in terms of it's rational, therefore good

.

You will get further with this if you just stop making value judgements about it and assess it in terms of what is the outcome.

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

I assert the French are protective. You disagree. You then move to assert that restrictive action is not protective . I would be most interested as would the body for World Trade in hearing what you think is protective.

Oh, excuse me you have said what is protective in terms of US actions. I agree the US is protective.....as well as the French, even though the one has nothing to do with the other. 

 

Restrictive practice is protectionism. The mistake you are making is you don't want to see that, because you assume protectionism is a bad' thing and this is an internal conflict with your view that most French restrictive practice has been 'fair' in terms of it's rational, therefore good

.

You will get further with this if you just stop making value judgements about it and assess it in terms of what is the outcome.

 

I think it is simpler than that - if restriction applies ONLY to foreign goods, then this is protectionism. If restriction applies to everyone, including local goods, then it is not protectionism.

[Malc1]

Yaaaaaawn 😳🐌🐌🐌

Malc 

[Boomer54]

12 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I think it is simpler than that - if restriction applies ONLY to foreign goods, then this is protectionism. If restriction applies to everyone, including local goods, then it is not protectionism.

 In conclusion, in summarising this issue it is clear.......

[Boomer54]

On 8/22/2024 at 7:14 PM, Linas.P said:

I think it is simpler than that - if restriction applies ONLY to foreign goods, then this is protectionism. If restriction applies to everyone, including local goods, then it is not protectionism.

Then you will like this....

"Canada’s government on Monday announced it is imposing a 100% tariff on imports of Chinese-made electric vehicles that matches U.S. tariffs and follows similar plans announced by the European Commission."

That might have been a misprint that should read "French Commission" (sic)

[Mossypossy]

What is UK tariff on Chinese ev's?

Seeing a lot of MGs