Car Road Tax

[GMB]

10 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

We also spend like £250 for tolls just a month ago and it could get pricey, but in theory unless you crossing whole France it is possible to drive there without paying anything for roads. And importantly roads are great in France, certainly not best in Europe, but compared to UK they are amazing, and 130km/h, not retarded 112km/h.

Also there are many countries that don't any other chargers apart of tax on fuel and still they have comparable or better roads than UK

Very true. For locals the cost of motoring is much less. Crossing the country is another story. and as Linas implies if there is no alternative "free" option the motorway has no toll, only pay when you choose to use it.

 

E.g.  There is a toll of 1.20 € for the last five miles of toll section, after that the motorway, which becomes the A75 at Clermont, is free for the next 300 km as far as Beziers (except the toll at the Millau viaduct).

[J Henderson]

France also hates motorists. Have you seen how much a new car costs there?

A Toyota GR Yaris costs almost 100K euros.

 

[Linas.P]

26 minutes ago, J Henderson said:

France also hates motorists. Have you seen how much a new car costs there?

A Toyota GR Yaris costs almost 100K euros.

Some imported cars could get expensive there, but average cost of the car is similar across Europe. In particular case of GR Yaris - that is new ridiculous enviromentalists policies, kind of European thing, not really anti-motorists, just anti-fun, ridiculous, unjustifiable and hysterical policies trying to fight something that is inevitable. 

Don't forget it is "single market", so if the cost of the cars would be significantly different, then one can simply buy that car in Germany or Spain, or Poland and register it in France. There are registration fees, but that will be few hundreds, maybe a thousand Euro... which is like 1-2% of the value of the car. So even if GR Yaris costed 100k Euro in France for some reason and in Germany it would be 45k Euro... then nobody stops French person buying one in Germany and registering it in France, perhaps ending-up with 48k Euro after all fees. Sure - it is a question.. how many people will go the length needed to play the system? One needs to buy new car in Germany, register it there, then import it to France as basically "used". Some will do, but majority just not going to buy GR Yaris.  

That said - grass is not always greener on the other side. In France it is illegal to modify the car, basically you can't do it AT ALL. No rims, no exhaust, nu bumpers, no spoilers - NOTHING. 

Anything that goes on the car has to be homologated for that specific car model, so if you have IS250 with 16" wheels for example, you could get 17" and 18" wheels from IS250, because they were available with that car and they were homologated by manufacturer to use on that specific car model. However, you can't fit F-Sport wheels from IS300h, or IS-F wheels, or GS450h wheels, because those were not specifically homologated for the specific model.

There are some specialists companies, like H&R, Konig, Akrapovic... which had homologated lowering springs, alloys or exhaust, but they tend to be for some specific very popular and expensive cars. Things like BMW M, Porsche 911 and few other key performance models, but the prices are also ridiculous. Let's say set of H&R lowering springs are £600, in France, homologated for 911, they will be 6000 Euro. 

That said - roads are definitely better in France and car ownership generally much cheaper. If one is using exclusively toll roads and crosses across the the France every day then it could get pricey, but other than that it is cheaper. Also 150-160km/h on toll road is alright, yet in UK that would be the case of losing the license on the spot.

[GMB]

When we lived there the price of second hand cars was crazy, whereas new cars were similar across Europe. Having said that, our French neighbours bought their cars in Belgium and Spain and saved a lot of money.

Just a check -  VW golf 1.5 tsi UK  £29K  VW golf same model France  32K Euros. At 1.17 Euros to the pound that makes the French car cheaper.

The reality:

The high cost of the Yaris GR in France is due to the Malus tax on high performance ( not French ) polluting vehicles. It's the french way of making you buy a crappy Renault Citroen or Peugeot.

 

La nouvelle Toyota GR Yaris 2024 est disponible en deux versions : la première dotée d'une boîte de vitesses manuelle à 6 rapports est affichée à partir de 46.300 euros TTC, mais ce n'est pas tout. En effet, avec des émissions de CO2 de 190 g/km, celle-ci se voit sanctionnée d'un malus écologique de 45.990 euros, soit une facture totale de 92.290 euros !
La seconde version de la GR Yaris est dotée d'une nouvelle boîte de vitesses automatique à 8 rapports, et s'affiche à partir de 48.800 euros TTC : là aussi, en raison de ses émissions de CO2 de 210 g/km, vous écopez de la taxe écologique maximale de 60.000 euros ! Soit une facture totale de pas moins de 108.800 euros...

[Dells]

What I can’t get my head around is my first Lexus a 17 plate IS was £10 VED but the LBX I collect in September in new more economical has smaller engine but the VED is £180 do they just pluck a figure out of the air, charge EV’s VED that would bring in a fair wedge.

I couldn’t have a EV even if I wanted one ( I don’t) because I would have to have cable over pavement ( trip hazard insurance companies rubbing hands together), also a friend has an old one and when he visits me from Worcestershire to Warwickshire he has to stop for recharge half way and yes they have got better but not good.

Dell

[Malc1]

14 minutes ago, Dells said:

do they just pluck a figure out of the air, charge EV’s VED that would bring in a fair wedge.

for sure .......  and there will be a lot more to follow no doubt  🤑

Malc

[Boomer54]

13 hours ago, GMB said:

When we lived there the price of second hand cars was crazy, whereas new cars were similar across Europe. Having said that, our French neighbours bought their cars in Belgium and Spain and saved a lot of money.

Just a check -  VW golf 1.5 tsi UK  £29K  VW golf same model France  32K Euros. At 1.17 Euros to the pound that makes the French car cheaper.

The reality:

The high cost of the Yaris GR in France is due to the Malus tax on high performance ( not French ) polluting vehicles. It's the french way of making you buy a crappy Renault Citroen or Peugeot.

 

La nouvelle Toyota GR Yaris 2024 est disponible en deux versions : la première dotée d'une boîte de vitesses manuelle à 6 rapports est affichée à partir de 46.300 euros TTC, mais ce n'est pas tout. En effet, avec des émissions de CO2 de 190 g/km, celle-ci se voit sanctionnée d'un malus écologique de 45.990 euros, soit une facture totale de 92.290 euros !
La seconde version de la GR Yaris est dotée d'une nouvelle boîte de vitesses automatique à 8 rapports, et s'affiche à partir de 48.800 euros TTC : là aussi, en raison de ses émissions de CO2 de 210 g/km, vous écopez de la taxe écologique maximale de 60.000 euros ! Soit une facture totale de pas moins de 108.800 euros...

Yes, the French have been very pro buy French for literally decades. If you go to a supermarket there you instantly notice the absence, minimalisation of non French product. It has changed a little over the years, but still it is very much in evidence now

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

Yes, the French have been very pro buy French for literally decades. If you go to a supermarket there you instantly notice the absence, minimalisation of non French product. It has changed a little over the years, but still it is very much in evidence now

The French are very pro French in every aspect. Regarding cars i have customers there that can only choose French companycars.

[Malc1]

When I was a NatWest bank manager aeons ago my choice of company car was British or British or British ……… don’t think bank managers get company cars these days …… do they 🤔

Malc 

[GMB]

I don't think there are any bank managers nowadays. I miss the days when I would see my Natwest bank manager and have honest straight discussions on progressing the business efficiently. I miss him. My current bank won't even talk to me because I have an online account and I am not worth their time.  ( FYI Nationwide ).

[Malc1]

2 minutes ago, GMB said:

( FYI Nationwide ).

I bank personally with the Nationwide BUT use my accounts with them significantly for my on-line travel agency business ......  they seem to be happy with it ...... they get commission I'm sure from all my Credit Card usage with global suppliers ......... I can ALWAYS find someone real on-line to have a useful chat with too ......  but that's infrequent  .......  10 outta 10 from me 

NatWest .  I'm like Farage, I was debanked without a whim nor an explanation some 6 years back .  and i worked with them for 23 years man and boy and Bank Manager car too .......  hahahahahaha .......  waiting to see what the debanking compensation might be for Farage before i begin my claim on that debacle !

NOW   

ROAD CAR TAX     ......  Labour Govt needs all we can give so guys don't be mean with " giving " we know they need it   ...  and I'm happy for EVs to pay the same as all us others too

 

Malc

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Malc1 said:

When I was a NatWest bank manager aeons ago my choice of company car was British or British or British ……… don’t think bank managers get company cars these days …… do they 🤔

Malc 

On an off, depends on the bank really... the "company cars" were dropped around 2008, then there were "salary sacrifice schemes", but due to continuous government meddling with the conditions of what qualifies and what doesn't these were phased out around 2018. But now there is resurgence with BEVs, most companies do offer some sort of electric car scheme. It is not "company car", it is again more like "salary sacrifice", but they are there. Basically, it went from "key retention benefit", to something companies were ashamed-off (offering staff car schemes), to something companies are proud to offer again (being "green" and all that with BEVs), but obviously now it is very small part of staff retention. Certainly nothing like in 80s, 90s or before that, where mere choice of company car could attract talent.

3 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Yes, the French have been very pro buy French for literally decades. If you go to a supermarket there you instantly notice the absence, minimalisation of non French product. It has changed a little over the years, but still it is very much in evidence now

 But... it is fair to say that French produce is just better, there was never a time where in French supermarket I thought to myself "I wish I had choice of tasteless British foods". Certainly not the case for the cars, if I had to choose any French car I would rather walk. 

[Malc1]

CAR ROAD TAX 

Has anyone actually heard of anything afoot from Govt about this upcoming ? 
Malc 

[Bob King]

Only gossip I can find on Google is the possibility of Labour making motorists pay buy the mile 😠😠

[Malc1]

Damn, so my thought on a Govt inspired specific “ convertible car sunshine “ tax might not happen 😳

Malc 

[Linas.P]

57 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Damn, so my thought on a Govt inspired specific “ convertible car sunshine “ tax might not happen 😳

Malc 

I wouldn't mind "unnecessarily huge 4x4 SUV for somebody who doesn't even go off-road" tax.

[Boomer54]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

On an off, depends on the bank really... the "company cars" were dropped around 2008, then there were "salary sacrifice schemes", but due to continuous government meddling with the conditions of what qualifies and what doesn't these were phased out around 2018. But now there is resurgence with BEVs, most companies do offer some sort of electric car scheme. It is not "company car", it is again more like "salary sacrifice", but they are there. Basically, it went from "key retention benefit", to something companies were ashamed-off (offering staff car schemes), to something companies are proud to offer again (being "green" and all that with BEVs), but obviously now it is very small part of staff retention. Certainly nothing like in 80s, 90s or before that, where mere choice of company car could attract talent.

 But... it is fair to say that French produce is just better, there was never a time where in French supermarket I thought to myself "I wish I had choice of tasteless British foods". Certainly not the case for the cars, if I had to choose any French car I would rather walk. 

I said "product". Could be a tin of xyz. You said "produce" which is more akin to a term for fresh veg/meat/fish etc. The latter is in my view also of good quality , but I could match that quite easily from my local Booths supermarket. You see as usual it depends what you need and where you buy it. It 's a fallacy we don't have good "produce" in the UK, we do it just is not usually found in the top 4, or 5 supermarkets where most people tend to shop.

As to "product" which is a much wider term the French are very protective of their brands which of course includes cars.

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

I said "product". Could be a tin of xyz. You said "produce" which is more akin to a term for fresh veg/meat/fish etc. The latter is in my view also of good quality , but I could match that quite easily from my local Booths supermarket. You see as usual it depends what you need and where you buy it. It 's a fallacy we don't have good "produce" in the UK, we do it just is not usually found in the top 4, or 5 supermarkets where most people tend to shop.

As to "product" which is a much wider term the French are very protective of their brands which of course includes cars.

Mostly agree... perhaps French supermarkets are just better, providing better range of products/produce, than comparable 4-5 biggest supermarkets in UK. Based on my observation they just generally sell more fresh foods and less ultra-super-duper-uber-over processed junk that hardly passes as food and chemically has more in common with rubber in tyres that something that is suppose to be edible.

Also - I understand it may be easier to get to farmers market somewhere in country side (and generally quality of life tends to be better further away from huge cities like London, perhaps same applies to Paris). However, whereas in UK one has to go out of their way to find good quality and fresh products, in France (at least in my experience) you can stop at any supermarket and find great quality products/produce. 

This perhaps is just consumer expectation and choice, observing what Brits puts in their basket it seems that large part of population isn't very picky and just takes any junk that was on the shelve, in France (again just my observation), people tend to select food much more carefully, pack individual vegetable, inspect each of them etc. Just cultural difference perhaps - French are quite particular about their food, have high expectation for quality. So it is just market forces at play - consumer demands fresh food and does not mind to pay little extra for it and business delivers that, consumer wants anything with caloric value for cheap... likewise business delivers for that need. In British supermarket there are at least 3 isles dedicated just for frozen "ready to eat" foods, there is literally shop dedicated for that (Iceland), in France one would really need to try hard to find any such foods, there is usually like 1 single fridge for that (perhaps for British tourists). I know I am kind of digging at what British people like to eat here, but French cuisine probably isn't top 1 in the world for nothing.

As for French being "protective"... they come nowhere close to Americans... and also British are quite proud about their brands... but perhaps most recognise that food stuff is nothing to be proud about and not worth fighting for. 

[Boomer54]

13 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Mostly agree... perhaps French supermarkets are just better, providing better range of products/produce, than comparable 4-5 biggest supermarkets in UK. Based on my observation they just generally sell more fresh foods and less ultra-super-duper-uber-over processed junk that hardly passes as food and chemically has more in common with rubber in tyres that something that is suppose to be edible.

Also - I understand it may be easier to get to farmers market somewhere in country side (and generally quality of life tends to be better further away from huge cities like London, perhaps same applies to Paris). However, whereas in UK one has to go out of their way to find good quality and fresh products, in France (at least in my experience) you can stop at any supermarket and find great quality products/produce. 

This perhaps is just consumer expectation and choice, observing what Brits puts in their basket it seems that large part of population isn't very picky and just takes any junk that was on the shelve, in France (again just my observation), people tend to select food much more carefully, pack individual vegetable, inspect each of them etc. Just cultural difference perhaps - French are quite particular about their food, have high expectation for quality. So it is just market forces at play - consumer demands fresh food and does not mind to pay little extra for it and business delivers that, consumer wants anything with caloric value for cheap... likewise business delivers for that need. In British supermarket there are at least 3 isles dedicated just for frozen "ready to eat" foods, there is literally shop dedicated for that (Iceland), in France one would really need to try hard to find any such foods, there is usually like 1 single fridge for that (perhaps for British tourists). I know I am kind of digging at what British people like to eat here, but French cuisine probably isn't top 1 in the world for nothing.

As for French being "protective"... they come nowhere close to Americans... and also British are quite proud about their brands... but perhaps most recognise that food stuff is nothing to be proud about and not worth fighting for. 

Last paragraph we are oceans apart. In my experience, and this is the point I was making to start with if you look at UK shelves/shops they are packed with products made allaround the world. Accessing our markets is generally easy. France, basically the opposite in relative terms.

 

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Last paragraph we are oceans apart. In my experience, and this is the point I was making to start with if you look at UK shelves/shops they are packed with products made allaround the world. Accessing our markets is generally easy. France, basically the opposite in relative terms.

Most of "products" are not made in Europe, so France is not much different in that regard - the clotting will be Moroccan, Turkish, Egyptian, Malaysian etc. and most of electronics Chinese.

The "produce" will be mostly French, although all international brants like Heinz etc. will also be there. But in my opinion that is just because French "produce" is better and unlike majority of consumers in UK, French are willing to pay the price for quality... although with extreme inflation in UK for last couple of years shopping in France almost seems cheap now.

As for British shelves being packed with goods from around the world - that is true, but I think it is less of protectionism or nationalism in France, but simply the fact that imported goods are better than local goods in UK, but not France. So the ratio of local to imported goods is indeed different, but it is not because French are protective, rather because their goods are simply better. Why import farmed salmon from Scotland, when you have wild salmon caught in North Atlantic... for less actually.  

[Malc1]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

Most of "products" are not made in Europe, so France is not much different in that regard - the clotting will be Moroccan, Turkish, Egyptian, Malaysian etc. and most of electronics Chinese.

The "produce" will be mostly French, although all international brants like Heinz etc. will also be there. But in my opinion that is just because French "produce" is better and unlike majority of consumers in UK, French are willing to pay the price for quality... although with extreme inflation in UK for last couple of years shopping in France almost seems cheap now. 

But can they match. Aldi  …… 🤣😂🤩

Malc 

[Malc1]

CAR ROAD TAX …..,

if it’s “ pay per mile “. then we can all run even more cars ……. We wouldn’t individually achieve more miles driving 3 or 4 cars as one eh !  🤔 

We’d be doing the same length journeys 

Malc 

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

But can they match. Aldi  …… 🤣😂🤩

Ohhh yes they can... I never find the need to go to neither Aldi, not Lidl in France... as the value for money isn't better. In UK it works, because they sell same goods for less money, in France it doesn't because they just sell worse quality goods for less money... So end value is the same - you just choose at what level of quality you want to shop.  

1 minute ago, Malc1 said:

CAR ROAD TAX …..,

if it’s “ pay per mile “. then we can all run even more cars ……. We wouldn’t individually achieve more miles driving 3 or 4 cars as one eh !  🤔 

We’d be doing the same length journeys 

That is why I would be in favour of "VED per mile" (even if I am strongly opposed to VED overall), simply because I drive very few miles nowadays... and also because if as you said one has multiple cars, then you only pay for what you drive. So one can easily have powerful weekend car that otherwise maybe costs £715 for VED now, but only does 800 miles year... and with "pay per mile" would only pay maybe £100. 

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Most of "products" are not made in Europe, so France is not much different in that regard - the clotting will be Moroccan, Turkish, Egyptian, Malaysian etc. and most of electronics Chinese.

The "produce" will be mostly French, although all international brants like Heinz etc. will also be there. But in my opinion that is just because French "produce" is better and unlike majority of consumers in UK, French are willing to pay the price for quality... although with extreme inflation in UK for last couple of years shopping in France almost seems cheap now.

As for British shelves being packed with goods from around the world - that is true, but I think it is less of protectionism or nationalism in France, but simply the fact that imported goods are better than local goods in UK, but not France. So the ratio of local to imported goods is indeed different, but it is not because French are protective, rather because their goods are simply better. Why import farmed salmon from Scotland, when you have wild salmon caught in North Atlantic... for less actually.  

Its just a cultural difference nothing else. In France the opinion on food is very different than in the UK or Holland. Take French out for lunch and first there will be a discussion of 20 minutes about the food followed by another 20 minutes about what wine to pair it with. Every village has a market where farmers sell their produce and cooking is more than using a microwave.

[Malc1]

Doesn’t every village in France have a McDonalds and / or a KFC …… a Greggs of course too …….. they need to “ speed up “ to enjoy Fast Food surely ……. glugged down with a Coke or a Pepsi  👌

ps. I never use them ….. we are slow slow foodies at home in sleepy Sheppey Kent  😄 

Malc