Winter fuel payment

[Boomer54]

14 minutes ago, Mossypossy said:

All this Starmer bashing may eventually lead to Angela Rayner becoming PM.

Careful now!

Thinking forward a few years that might be a good thing electorally for those of us with a particular aversion to Labour.

[Phil xxkr]

2 hours ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

My fellow drivers:
Having read most posts in this thread, I can see three [main] things regularly cropping up:

1.  Inaccurate paradigms
2. False analogies
3. Amnesia

1. There isn't a "vault" with finite stacks of money. Money is created through inputting numbres on a glorified spreadsheet. In a country with a sovereign central bank (like the UK) so-called debt will always (by design), remain payable.
   The state destroys and creates money as per its needs, at the touch of a button. See how some things are never questioned and we never see an affordability discussion on them: For some stuff, money is always available & endless.  
   
   This artificial debate to keep us all bickering about what's payable and fiscally responsible is just a way to keep us from dreaming too big (a fair society with decent lives and good services & infrastructure, etc.) and demanding "too much" (for a few to keep hoarding ever-increasing amounts of wealth and power). 
    
2. The Tatcherite trap of the State & tax run as "a houselhold", which is just a lie. Fodder for journos and "influencers" who can't be bothered learning how their world actually works.
   Countries with currency sovereignty are issuers (and not users) of money. You can't run out of money when you're the only one who can create it... same way you can't run out of your own signature!
   
   The "deficit" of the state is the saving/gain of the private sector, but it isn't actually a "deficit" because in this ecosystem, my expenditure is someone else's gain. If a significant actor (i.e. the State) starts witholding, this drains the money flow, worsens inequality and stagnates the economy* because total expenditure equals total income.
   * inflationary episodes come as a result of supply bottlenecks and/or speculation (which is an artificial bottleneck), not money being issued by the States to cover society's basics.
    
3. Amnesia: I wasn't excited when this Labour party won (with much fewer votes than Corbyn, mind you) ...BUT do you actually see where the country is?? The last 14 years, most became worse-off, less healthy, less happy, less hopeful, angrier, more alone and frustrated... Less able to have a good life overall, with much more uncertainty. The UK is in tatters.
   
   The many years of austerity fundamentalism (i.e. kind welfare for the rich vs. dog-eat-dog capitalism for the rest) under Cameron-Clegg-Osborne actually killed thousands of people through lack of care, and lost us the best opportunity to modernise the country (money was super cheap). It will weigh us down for decades to come.
   How some seem willing to stay faithul to this bunch is simply beyond me.

Neoliberalism is the economic dogma of those who do not understand economics (because it's full of oversimplified analogies and easy fixes for complex logics). The much-revered Mises & Hayek never worked at an actual business for a day. Bird-brained Ayn Rand died collecting social security checks while writing against social care and the State.

@GMB gets it right, in pointing at how Varoufakis makes a very on-point diagnosis of the current context and trends. Recommended reading, along with an earier book: Adults in the Room.

Speaking of books, Thomas Sowell in his ;Intellectuals and Society, writes about intellectuals and why they think they are the annointed ones,for example, 

Verbal virtuosity (rhetoric) versus evidence or logicedit

Sowell suggests that intellectuals rely heavily on what he calls "verbal virtuosity" (clever phrasing, vague euphemisms, witty quotes, deceptive labeling, name-calling and sneering asides) to substitute for evidence, logic and analysis. Other tactics of "verbal virtuosity" include dismissing opposing ideas as simplistic, portraying those making opposing arguments as morally unworthy, invoking "rights" which have no legal basis, vague calls for "change", reliance on the abstract versus the concrete, and a constant "filtering of reality".

His book Economic Facts and Fallacies is also helpful in filling out those holes in our understanding of how economies really work. 

As to Ayn Rand well the Uber founder finds her inspirational as does billionaire Peter Thiel oh and Alan Greenspan amongst others. Selling 37 million books worldwide no doubt helped in her leaving eight hundred thousand dollars  her will. And yes, when dying of lung cancer she did sign on for state medical assistance. Whilst this looks contrary to her long held position on the State she did see it as taking back some of the money illegally plundered off her by the State in taxes. 

[Malc1]

1 hour ago, Mossypossy said:

All this Starmer bashing may eventually lead to Angela Rayner becoming PM.

Careful now!

Indubitably ……. TUC favourite and her nose in the trough not so long as her bosses …….. avaricity yes of course but more Social and Principled than most others ……. I don’t doubt for one minute that she’s going to be our PM and possibly shortly around the time of the Reeves budget  🤔

Rayner Abbott Ashworth and maybe Corbyn too ……. they’re there waiting in those wings methinks 👌

Malc 

538,241.   Signatures now 

[Phil xxkr]

22 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Indubitably ……. TUC favourite and her nose in the trough not so long as her bosses …….. avaricity yes of course but more Social and Principled than most others ……. I don’t doubt for one minute that she’s going to be our PM and possibly shortly around the time of the Reeves budget  🤔

Rayner Abbott Ashworth and maybe Corbyn too ……. they’re there waiting in those wings methinks 👌

Malc 

538,241.   Signatures now 

😱😱😱

[Boomer54]

"Rayner Abbott Ashworth and maybe Corbyn too ……. they’re there waiting in those wings methinks "

Too much to hope I suppose that they might actually have (angel) wings before they ruin us.

[Malc1]

Impossible tasks await I’m sure and the scapegoat won’t then be the Conservatives and those 14 years resulting in Reeves bizarre Black ol ‘Oles jumping outta the woodwork and biting ‘em on de Bum 

The Treasury will have magically found a way to grow “ angel wings “ too and stuff that Black ‘Ole into a Govt  Growth Fund  “ invested “ from all those Civil Service and Local Govt employee Gold, but to be, Brass Plated Pension Funds 👍👍👍👍

Rayner will then  be Queen of Angels with a heart of gold-like brass in her red red red dancing shoes 🤣😂

Much fun and games await and the Treasury dreaming up much that the OBR can focus upon with a positive stance and Peace will Reign and Rain down upon us 

RED RED RED and fully supported by the TUC and non-affiliated Unions ——— onions and all 

AND ALL COZ THEY CANCELLED THE OAPs 

WINTER FUEL PAYMENT 

 

Malc 

538,296.    Signatures now 👏👏👏

 

 

 

 

[The-Acre]

10 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Impossible tasks await I’m sure and the scapegoat won’t then be the Conservatives and those 14 years resulting in Reeves bizarre Black ol ‘Oles jumping outta the woodwork and biting ‘em on de Bum 

The Treasury will have magically found a way to grow “ angel wings “ too and stuff that Black ‘Ole into a Govt  Growth Fund  “ invested “ from all those Civil Service and Local Govt employee Gold, but to be, Brass Plated Pension Funds 👍👍👍👍

Rayner will then  be Queen of Angels with a heart of gold-like brass in her red red red dancing shoes 🤣😂

Much fun and games await and the Treasury dreaming up much that the OBR can focus upon with a positive stance and Peace will Reign and Rain down upon us 

RED RED RED and fully supported by the TUC and non-affiliated Unions ——— onions and all 

AND ALL COZ THEY CANCELLED THE OAPs 

WINTER FUEL PAYMENT 

 

Malc 

538,296.    Signatures now 👏👏👏

 

 

 

 

Only if people keep quiet will they get away with being anti Robin Hood's. People power is very powerful, even more powerful than those who think they hold the power!

[Boomer54]

Look for about the nth time the govt will change the fiscal rules and hey presto the debt problem will be redefined. All of which takes me back to my first question/issue. Why the hell would you be silly enough to pick a fight over 1.5 billion? It is a serious tactical error.

Regarding debt there are 3 issues you want to know about.

1. How much?

2. How long (duration)?

3. Who owns it ?

Answers.

1. Approx 100% of GDP

2.Approx 14 years

3. Approx 39% is owned by us.

FYI

Japan

1 . 263%  and no that is not a typo.

2. Approx 9 years

3. Approx 53% owned by BOJ

That's just to give you a comparative. However, in general UK debt has a better measure across those criteria than most developed nations. It is time for you to really ask yourself why this Labour govt is basically p.s.ing up your leg and telling you it is raining.

As someone made the point earlier we are a currency issuer and that enables us to take steps to manage those 3 debt criteria just like Japan has for decades.

The WFA isn't even significant enough to be a rounding error! So, again what kind of political leadership would pick a fight over it?

[Mr_Groundhog]

4 hours ago, Mossypossy said:

All this Starmer bashing may eventually lead to Angela Rayner becoming PM.

Careful now!

I dunno much about her but she seems to have more of a spine than Starmer

[Mr_Groundhog]

13 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Look for about the nth time the govt will change the fiscal rules and hey presto the debt problem will be redefined. All of which takes me back to my first question/issue. Why the hell would you be silly enough to pick a fight over 1.5 billion? It is a serious tactical error.

Regarding debt there are 3 issues you want to know about.

 

They want us distracted, arguing over minutiae, instead of looking at who's laughing all the way to the bank.

[The-Acre]

1 hour ago, Mr_Groundhog said:

I dunno much about her but she seems to have more of a spine than Starmer

Have you heard the old line? A shiver was seen leaving the house of commons because it couldn't find a spine to run down!

[Phil xxkr]

3 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Impossible tasks await I’m sure and the scapegoat won’t then be the Conservatives and those 14 years resulting in Reeves bizarre Black ol ‘Oles jumping outta the woodwork and biting ‘em on de Bum 

The Treasury will have magically found a way to grow “ angel wings “ too and stuff that Black ‘Ole into a Govt  Growth Fund  “ invested “ from all those Civil Service and Local Govt employee Gold, but to be, Brass Plated Pension Funds 👍👍👍👍

Rayner will then  be Queen of Angels with a heart of gold-like brass in her red red red dancing shoes 🤣😂

Much fun and games await and the Treasury dreaming up much that the OBR can focus upon with a positive stance and Peace will Reign and Rain down upon us 

RED RED RED and fully supported by the TUC and non-affiliated Unions ——— onions and all 

AND ALL COZ THEY CANCELLED THE OAPs 

WINTER FUEL PAYMENT 

 

Malc 

538,296.    Signatures now 👏👏👏

 

 

 

 

I agree Malc but how come the £is rising well against the euro? 

[The-Acre]

46 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I agree Malc but how come the £is rising well against the euro? 

Could it be because the major investors see war as being hugely profitable! And now that we're robbing the needy pensioners, there's more money for war! Oh to be a fly on the wall of the oak panelled rooms with their deep leather Chesterfield's and warmed brandy and whispers!

[LenT]

3 hours ago, The-Acre said:

Oh to be a fly on the wall of the oak panelled rooms with their deep leather Chesterfield's and warmed brandy

You’ve been in our lounge?  🤔

[Malc1]

9 hours ago, The-Acre said:

Could it be because the major investors see war as being hugely profitable! And now that we're robbing the needy pensioners, there's more money for war! Oh to be a fly on the wall of the oak panelled rooms with their deep leather Chesterfield's and warmed brandy and whispers!

Slippers and log fires too …….. oh, that’s No 10 Diwning Street this winter too 🧐

Malc 

[Thackeray]

This is a very long thread and someone may have said this before, in which case apologies.

However, another way to consider the so-called winter fuel payment is to regard it as just part of state pension income. If the standard pension is around £12,000, a cut of £300 is a 2.5% cut in income. It seems almost inconceivable that any government would happily announce that it had decided to cut pensioners' income by 2.5%. And yet this is what they have done.

There was a considerable outcry when Gordon Brown oversaw a meagre 50p increase in pensions . (This was the figure in line with inflation.) But to openly announce that a government has decided that its best solution to cutting back on government expenditure is to cut pensioners' income by 2.5% seems extraordinarily poor public relations. In practice, of course, many pensioners don't get £12,000 - probably the majority get far less. So the cut for them will be much more in percentage terms.

 

[Malc1]

16 minutes ago, Thackeray said:

many pensioners don't get £12,000 - probably the majority get far less. So the cut for them will be much more in percentage terms.

 

this is absolutely so ............. I get much less for sure but then I " retired " on a State Pension in January 2015 and I'm now in receipt of some £202.10 per week some £10,509.20 pa OAP State Pension

I defy any sngle person to live off that alone in these challenging times ............... and for many that £2/300 tax free WINTER FUEL PAYMENT would be a lifeline and a definite choice between Heating and Eating .......  or neither possibly 

the AGE  UK  Petition is now at

538,537   Signatures

I would encourage any who haven't yet signed to please do so .....  it sends a message !

 

Malc

 

[Boomer54]

1 hour ago, Thackeray said:

This is a very long thread and someone may have said this before, in which case apologies.

However, another way to consider the so-called winter fuel payment is to regard it as just part of state pension income. If the standard pension is around £12,000, a cut of £300 is a 2.5% cut in income. It seems almost inconceivable that any government would happily announce that it had decided to cut pensioners' income by 2.5%. And yet this is what they have done.

There was a considerable outcry when Gordon Brown oversaw a meagre 50p increase in pensions . (This was the figure in line with inflation.) But to openly announce that a government has decided that its best solution to cutting back on government expenditure is to cut pensioners' income by 2.5% seems extraordinarily poor public relations. In practice, of course, many pensioners don't get £12,000 - probably the majority get far less. So the cut for them will be much more in percentage terms.

 

Here you are indeed falling foul of the political disease we so often accuse politicians of. That is, you are bending the facts to make your point which otherwise does not stand up. Of course they have not cut the state pension by anything. However, you are in fact correct to link the two issues. It has been obvious for awhile Labour did not really want to maintain the triple lock pension. However, by cutting the WFA they have been able to reduce the cost of the triple lock without breaking their promise to maintain it. Hence, the net financial effect is the same as you stated, but without the direct connection.

Some people would call this clever politics, but I would say those people must also think we are stupid if they really believe we can't see this manipulation for what it is.

[GMB]

51 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

receipt of some £202.10 per week

Wow that's fantastic. I only get £178 per week because I only paid 45+ years of full National Insurance contributions. Then I get taxed on my private pension because it takes me over the threshold so I lost about £8 of that as well, but hey, Aldi are doing special offers on plonk at the moment. We should be so grateful for the generous gift from our betters and not moan about the fact that we are getting the worst state pension in Europe.

I heard recently that the gov't have made a block purchase of those Swiss suicide boxes for the surviving OAPs this winter. A £300 bonus for anyone who takes up the offer ( paid for by the cut in the WFA ) paid in arrears😄, so good for everyone concerned, balanced books etc? Keir and his cronies will be so pleased with themselves.🤡💩

[Malc1]

We are perhaps some of those fortunate to have made private pension provision ……… likewise WE MAKE GOLD PLATED PENSION PROVISION for those Civil ( and sometimes very Uncivil ) Servants too by virtue of our taxes I’m thinking 🤔

Fear not, we OAPs won’t ever win 🥵

Govt PM, Chancellor and like employees always will win 🧐

Malc 

[Phil xxkr]

27 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

We are perhaps some of those fortunate to have made private pension provision ……… likewise WE MAKE GOLD PLATED PENSION PROVISION for those Civil ( and sometimes very Uncivil ) Servants too by virtue of our taxes I’m thinking 🤔

Fear not, we OAPs won’t ever win 🥵

Govt PM, Chancellor and like employees always will win 🧐

Malc 

As if you need reminding Malc 🙂

King Henry V: What’s he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin:
If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian:’
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispin’s day.’
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he’ll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember’d.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember’d;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

 

From Henry V, Act IV, Scene III

[Phil xxkr]

3 hours ago, Thackeray said:

This is a very long thread and someone may have said this before, in which case apologies.

However, another way to consider the so-called winter fuel payment is to regard it as just part of state pension income. If the standard pension is around £12,000, a cut of £300 is a 2.5% cut in income. It seems almost inconceivable that any government would happily announce that it had decided to cut pensioners' income by 2.5%. And yet this is what they have done.

There was a considerable outcry when Gordon Brown oversaw a meagre 50p increase in pensions . (This was the figure in line with inflation.) But to openly announce that a government has decided that its best solution to cutting back on government expenditure is to cut pensioners' income by 2.5% seems extraordinarily poor public relations. In practice, of course, many pensioners don't get £12,000 - probably the majority get far less. So the cut for them will be much more in percentage terms.

 

I think Rishi Sunak not keeping to the triple lock promise and reducing the award by 5% far more egregious. How quickly we forget 🙁

[LenT]

51 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Fear not, we OAPs won’t ever win 🥵

Govt PM, Chancellor and like employees always will win 🧐

You paint a grim picture, Malcolm.

Anyone know of any proposals by the new Government regarding assisted suicide?

[Boomer54]

51 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

As if you need reminding Malc 🙂

King Henry V: What’s he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin:
If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian:’
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispin’s day.’
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he’ll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember’d.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember’d;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

 

From Henry V, Act IV, Scene III

Or in 21st century speak rally in Lonon in October, or lose the right to complain!

[Boomer54]

28 minutes ago, LenT said:

You paint a grim picture, Malcolm.

Anyone know of any proposals by the new Government regarding assisted suicide?

By assisted do you mean if Starmer accidentally fell into a death pod? That sort of "proposal".

Nb.😇 Just because I was charged with looking after peoples mental wellbeing does not extend to the rest of their body in the case of certain individuals.