Winter fuel payment

[Boomer54]

49 minutes ago, rayaans said:

So you suggest they pay the most junior of doctors £14 an hour? And 5 years after they've completed the degree they're still earning £25 and hour which is less than what plumbers and electricians charge yet people wonder why they go to Australia / Middle east / USA where you could earn double/ triple the salary.

Either way if it wasn't for junior doctors who actually run the hospitals there wouldn't be any pensioners.....

22% is incorrect by the way. The media has made it sound higher than it is as it includes the £1000 one off payment and the 6 % last year so it's actually not a 22% increase on top of what they're on, it works out 22% in entirety over 2 years which is still a bad deal. 

35% is not unreasonable when your average Junior doctor can't pay a plumber or builder amongst the fees to pay GMC, defense unions, student finance. 

The alternative would be to privatise the whole system, doctors would make a killing and patients may be better off in some circumstances 

Some interesting points there. Start with my conclusion which is I agree with you in general that there is no logic that such a time and monetary investment actually returns so much less than others that require relatively little at all in comparison. This actually takes us back to good old economics 101 . Bad policy over decades has created inbalances in the supply of labour supply and demand for those manual/trade occupations. It isn't the fault of the Bricky he can earn more than a qualified and experienced Junior Doctor. Of course it didn't really help that we chose to turn off the tap of European labour that was filling some of those labour gaps and helping to keep the price down. Not getting into the Brexit thing here though as it was much more complicated than that. Now add in what happens to the price of healthcare when you you in effect subsidise it by making it a public service ostensively free at the point of delivery? For the answer just look at the costs of healthcare where it isn't so 'free'. In the USA healthcare costs more and pay is higher. 

Unfortunately, many people just don't understand what the real cost of bigger govt actually is. It's hugely wasteful and inefficient. It really doesn't get the job done and it does not deliver real value to plan B which is get them out of the business of doing what they are not qualified to do. Not a hope in hell of it happening though, but may be turkeys will vote for xmas this year (sic).

Personally, I don't care at all about winter fuel allowance. The cut in interest rates yesterday will cost me multiple times that in lost income so raspberry time. Many others will either be similar ,or will not be effected because they are in the safety net and keep it. A relatively small number will be genuinely impacted and we can show a little empathy to them. Unfortunately, I doubt if I will remain so sanguine come October Budget time. My wallet is already twitching in my pocket looking for somewhere to hide.

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:07 AM, Brian R said:

Couldn't agree more, but boy oh boy, look at the multitude of out-and-out idiots that are now part of this new government. I'm not going to name names but the list would likely run into 25% of Labour MP's. I fear, in the words of Bachman-Turner Overdrive, you ain't seen nothing yet......

But Brian That,s been the Case Historically Ad-En- Finitum Comes to Mind..!!!

[Tickedon]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

So you suggest they pay the most junior of doctors £14 an hour? And 5 years after they've completed the degree they're still earning £25 and hour which is less than what plumbers and electricians charge yet people wonder why they go to Australia / Middle east / USA where you could earn double/ triple the salary.

Either way if it wasn't for junior doctors who actually run the hospitals there wouldn't be any pensioners.....

22% is incorrect by the way. The media has made it sound higher than it is as it includes the £1000 one off payment and the 6 % last year so it's actually not a 22% increase on top of what they're on, it works out 22% in entirety over 2 years which is still a bad deal. 

35% is not unreasonable when your average Junior doctor can't pay a plumber or builder amongst the fees to pay GMC, defense unions, student finance. 

The alternative would be to privatise the whole system, doctors would make a killing and patients may be better off in some circumstances 

Junior Doctors also benefit from £150-200k of training paid for by our taxes. 

I would be quite happy to pay Junior Doctors more, if they also take on the costs of their training.

The current model is that pensioners on £12k per year are losing out on £200-300 to fund a huge inflation busting pay increase for those that already receive a huge amount of taxpayer funding.

[Malc1]

Cest le vie 

it matters not a fig or even two what we think or suggest …….. the dye is cast and the Big Black Hole of that £22bn …… 50% created I’m reading by virtue ( sic ) of the Govt Payroll effect twixt 5.5% and 22% increases …….

,,,,,. significantly being offset by slicing off the OAPs Winter Fuel Payment it seems ……. 
 

let’s see what MPs pay themselves upcoming eh 🤣😂

You and me have zilch say going forward ……. we will be grateful recipients of morsels from the tables of the over-fed multi facets of the now, still whingeing recipients of Govt paid largesse pay rises …….. might the Unions be tempted to zap more now that they have successfully screwed the coffers dry …… surely not 😂🤣🤩…… it’s not in their psyche surely 🤔

Wes Streeting is it ? Good ‘ok ?

You're a Man of the People ……. just remember the 10million OAPs paying your inflation busting wages too 

As I say …. Cest le vie ……. The dye is cast for lots more anti OAP action 

just watch this space 

Malc 

[Poundy]

2 hours ago, rayaans said:

So you suggest they pay the most junior of doctors £14 an hour? And 5 years after they've completed the degree they're still earning £25 and hour which is less than what plumbers and electricians charge yet people wonder why they go to Australia / Middle east / USA where you could earn double/ triple the salary.

Either way if it wasn't for junior doctors who actually run the hospitals there wouldn't be any pensioners.....

22% is incorrect by the way. The media has made it sound higher than it is as it includes the £1000 one off payment and the 6 % last year so it's actually not a 22% increase on top of what they're on, it works out 22% in entirety over 2 years which is still a bad deal. 

35% is not unreasonable when your average Junior doctor can't pay a plumber or builder amongst the fees to pay GMC, defense unions, student finance. 

The alternative would be to privatise the whole system, doctors would make a killing and patients may be better off in some circumstances 

Where did I suggest they work for £14 per hour?????

I have no problem with the amount anyone can earn, in fact before I retired, it was a sad day if I got out of bed for less than £1k. 

My beef is that Labour collapsed under pressure from the Unions who are instrumental in keeping them in power and will now dictate how the rest of the population are governed. I find it sad that they deemed it necessary to take a winter fuel allowance off pensioners who in comparison are receiving  £218 pw or as you like to analysis £5/£6 per hour, to help fund it.

Perhaps you need to understand what's posted before shooting from the hip. 

[Malc1]

Poundy hi …….. your OAP figure of £218 per week is for some

……… many receive less …….

depending I guess on age at / the year of actual retirement …… and other challenging to understand DWP computations 🤔

Malc 

 

[Spock66]

1 hour ago, Tickedon said:

Junior Doctors also benefit from £150-200k of training paid for by our taxes. 

I would be quite happy to pay Junior Doctors more, if they also take on the costs of their training.

They will be paying back their student loans for many years, the average debt for a medical student is £71k (2021 Data).

If we asked people to pay £150k for their training how many Doctors do you think we would train each year?

[Poundy]

20 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Poundy hi …….. your OAP figure of £218 per week is for some

……… many receive less …….

depending I guess on age at / the year of actual retirement …… and other challenging to understand DWP computations 🤔

Malc 

 

Yes, my state pension is considerably less around £170 because of time spent overseas and the fact I also get an Australian pension.

The reason I threw the £218 in was I am under the impression that is the cut off amount to qualify for the Energy Supplement under pension credit.

[Poundy]

58 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

They will be paying back their student loans for many years, the average debt for a medical student is £71k (2021 Data).

If we asked people to pay £150k for their training how many Doctors do you think we would train each year?

Horses for courses, Many sole traders can risk considerably more in investing in themselves to create an income. Their debts are also repayable with considerable interest regardless of what income is generated. Unlike students loans etc, banks don't, say you only need to pay us back when you income exceeds a certain amount.

[Malc1]

£218 weekly pension …….. But sadly that impression isn’t correct for all OAPs …….. my OAPension  is below £218 too and Energy Supplements / Pension Credit has never featured for me …….. from my working to age 65 in the UK alone …… from age 18 ….. 

as I thought, the DWP computations are doubtless impossibly challenging 🤣😂

Let’s face it ……. UK OAPs not on State benefits are being screwed over 

Cest le vie …… well done Sir Keir  ……. Man of the People eh !  😇       🤣😂🤩🤣

Malc 

[rayaans]

50 minutes ago, Poundy said:

Where did I suggest they work for £14 per hour?????

I have no problem with the amount anyone can earn, in fact before I retired, it was a sad day if I got out of bed for less than £1k. 

My beef is that Labour collapsed under pressure from the Unions who are instrumental in keeping them in power and will now dictate how the rest of the population are governed. I find it sad that they deemed it necessary to take a winter fuel allowance off pensioners who in comparison are receiving  £218 pw or as you like to analysis £5/£6 per hour, to help fund it.

Perhaps you need to understand what's posted before shooting from the hip. 

Well what else do you suggest they do then?

If they didn't agree the doctor strikes would continue to increase. They got to around 1 week in summer and the hospitals couldn't cope. Imagine the state in winter if a week of strikes went ahead.

Nowadays in Yorkshire a tiler takes £45/m2 making over £1k on an average bathroom which can be tiled in 2 days of full work. Down south its more sometimes hitting £60-70/m2. When you have some of the most educated people in the country earning less than a tiler would surely there's something wrong - which is why strikes occur in the first place

[wharfhouse]

14 minutes ago, Poundy said:

Horses for course, Many sole traders can risk considerably more in investing in themselves to create an income. There debts are also repayable with considerable interest regardless of what income is generated. Unlike students loans etc, banks don't, say you only need to pay us back when you income exceeds a certain amount.

Tell me about it - small Limited company - didn't get hardly any help through the pandemic and had to take Bounce Back Loans to get by that I'll be paying back for a good number of years now...!

[Boomer54]

34 minutes ago, Poundy said:

Yes, my state pension is considerably less around £170 because of time spent overseas and the fact I also get an Australian pension.

The reason I threw the £218 in was I am under the impression that is the cut off amount to qualify for the Energy Supplement under pension credit.

Colour yourself a very fortunate fellow assuming your Oz pension  is payable in AUS dollars converted to £'s. The fx rate means a huge gain given the trend over the last 20 years. Indeed, cunning plan A for retirement might always involve earning in high growth economy and retiring in a low growth economy (,excluding basket cases like Turkey of course).

[Boomer54]

8 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Tell me about it - small Limited company - didn't get hardly any help through the pandemic and had to take Bounce Back Loans to get by that I'll be paying back for a good number of years now...!

Sympathies on that, but I could also point to a dozen trade guys within a mile of ne who took govt help (sic)(my taxes) and also worked right through.  Swings and roundabouts is the expression that comes to mind.

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, Boomer54 said:

Sympathies on that, but I could also point to a dozen trade guys within a mile of ne who took govt help (sic)(my taxes) and also worked right through.  Swings and roundabouts is the expression that comes to mind.

Yes I know - many people abused the support given and overclaimed - due to being a limited company with variable income and hence minimum salary topped up by dividends as and when the company can afford it (which could not be included as income), we were left in a black hole with little help compared to sole traders who had a lot support through grants etc, or anyone in a normal employment with the support they got, and in particular the public sector who were hardly impacted financially. 

[Boomer54]

21 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Yes I know - many people abused the support given and overclaimed - due to being a limited company with variable income and hence minimum salary topped up by dividends as and when the company can afford it (which could not be included as income), we were left in a black hole with little help compared to sole traders who had a lot support through grants etc, or anyone in a normal employment with the support they got, and in particular the public sector who were hardly impacted financially. 

I understand. In normal times your Ltd Company vehicle was and still is the most tax effective way for you to trade. However, the rules applied to govt covid help left your Ltd company in a relatively poor position compared to small businesses that were Sole traders. 

To be honest I can't think of many better examples why we really should find a way to rein in govt handouts. If they were not giving it away then arguably they would be taking less from you and then YOU get to decide what you spend and what you retain to handle rainy covid  day events. Much better than their amateurish attempts at economic management which are uneven at best and downright incompetence at worst.

[Poundy]

30 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Colour yourself a very fortunate fellow assuming your Oz pension  is payable in AUS dollars converted to £'s. The fx rate means a huge gain given the trend over the last 20 years. Indeed, cunning plan A for retirement might always involve earning in high growth economy and retiring in a low growth economy (,excluding basket cases like Turkey of course).

Not so much now, costing me about $1.97 to buy a £1 back in 2014 I could get it for around $1.40. On the plus side  on selling my UK B'mth house and arriving in Australia in 1989 I have been mortgage free since, and returned 2015.

[wharfhouse]

4 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

I understand. In normal times your Ltd Company vehicle was and still is the most tax effective way for you to trade. However, the rules applied to govt covid help left your Ltd company in a relatively poor position compared to normal small businesses that were Sole traders. 

To be honest I can't think of many better examples why we really should find a way to rein in govt handouts. If they were not giving it away then arguably they would be taking less from you and then YOU get to decide what you spend and what you retain to handle rainy covid  day events. Much better than their amateurish attempts at economic management which are uneven at best and downright incompetence at worst.

Yes there is so little done to encourage entrepreneurship in this country any more - it's all about how much can be squeezed out of those least able to resist aka micro and small businesses - and dream up more and more obscure tax rules that are difficult if not impossible to defend against (IR 35 being one). The Conservatives had lots of opportunity to put right some of those wrongs but were not interested in small businesses seeing them as an easy cash cow rather than an investment and aren't therefore much better than Labour in that respect. I'm starting to wind down now and will eventually retire. Really not sure I'd try to start a business again if I was in the same position as I was a couple of decades ago. My brother started a business about the same time as me and has recently sold it and it was such a huge relief for him too when he could finally step away from it. 

There's no support now for those willing to take a risk and create wealth - just more and more people working in the public sector ringing up liabilities there will be no one left to pay for. And I have some of my family working in the public sector (linked to defence of our realm) and TBH I've now said to them they might as well get what they can as working in the private sector is becoming a hiding to nothing. 

[Poundy]

50 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Well what else do you suggest they do then?

If they didn't agree the doctor strikes would continue to increase. They got to around 1 week in summer and the hospitals couldn't cope. Imagine the state in winter if a week of strikes went ahead.

Nowadays in Yorkshire a tiler takes £45/m2 making over £1k on an average bathroom which can be tiled in 2 days of full work. Down south its more sometimes hitting £60-70/m2. When you have some of the most educated people in the country earning less than a tiler would surely there's something wrong - which is why strikes occur in the first place

Education is not a free pass to high income, money is made by hard graft and supply and Demand, I use trades people a lot more often than the Medical profession and when I need to see  one there is no GP's available or the Hospitals are on strike. The NHS is no longer fit for purpose regardless of how dedicated Nurses, Dr's and staff are. My wife was recently stuck  in a wheelchair in need of a damaged hip replacement. The options were stay in it for a least a year taking pain killers or stump up £20k. I was lucky to have the funds, but many may not be as fortunate. On arriving for the op the Juniors were out flag waving show me the money lol! 

If you want something like Cataract surgery you are now farmed out to a Private company bypassing the NHS but paid the NHS estimated procedure cost that would have been incurred by them. A win, win situation top service but the same cost to the tax payer and no long waiting list. Subsidised means tested medical treatment will be the final solution, forget all this "save our NHS" codswallop it's not working regardless who is in power. Just my 2c of course 

[Linas.P]

On 7/31/2024 at 6:02 PM, Boomer54 said:

I have taken a vow not to whinge at whatever Labour decide to enact. My reasoning is there really should be no surprises for we voters. Fact is many of us were completely exhausted watching the Tory party implosion that is nigh a decade old. Unfortunately, that was enough for certain voters to fall into the trap of the grass must be greener with Labour. Well, keep it short. No!. However, every mistake as a bill that comes with it and we will simply have to pay up for this harsh reminder of why Labour are always a threat to our wallets. Next time just remember to take your brain with you when you vote.

But what was the choice? I knew labour policy isn't personally beneficial for me, yet one can't continue voting for tories and continue winging that country is going to shaite? There was simply no way and no reason why anyone should vote for tories when they have consistently shown that they are inept and corrupt, literally can't even govern their own party, nevermind the country. 

In many cases it is similar to politics abroad - trump or biden (now kamala), are they good candidates? Any of them? No they are all bad, so who do you vote for? For the same reason I have disengaged myself from politics, because I am just so tired to make a choice between bad and worst.

Somebody once said - you don't vote for what you like, you vote against those you hate. And in many ways vote for labour was less to do with labour and more to do with complete failure of tories. Even many commentators agreed - it is not so much labour won as much as tories just completely lost it. 

Do I believe they will be much better than tories? No - doubt it... but I can't see how they could be much worse. As for fuel winter fuel subsidies... to be honest I don't like the idea and I am for abolishment of it, why should working age people who can't even afford housing pay to heat old people mansions... you know I am always hyperbolic, I know not all old people live in mansions, but it needs to be said - most of current generation can even afford the damn flat, so the heating thing is kind of moot. All in all, I believe this policy will prove popular with public... that is why they did it (populism, they are all populists).

Next thing - inheritance tax... and despite I strongly oppose it on principal level... it is badly needed and it is needed now when biggest transfer of wealth in history of human civilisation is happening between generations (obviously uber-rich will avoid it, because they don't wait until their death to sort out their finances). 

3 hours ago, Tickedon said:

Junior Doctors also benefit from £150-200k of training paid for by our taxes. 

I would be quite happy to pay Junior Doctors more, if they also take on the costs of their training.

The current model is that pensioners on £12k per year are losing out on £200-300 to fund a huge inflation busting pay increase for those that already receive a huge amount of taxpayer funding.

The irony in your statement is that you assume junior doctors "benefits" from that training. No it is you (us) who benefits from it. So this point is really irrelevant, if that training would not be provided then we would have no junior doctors, what's then?

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

On 8/1/2024 at 8:24 AM, Kevin Williams said:

Labour's time for change means... We will end up with only LOOSE CHANGE in our pockets...???

Loose Change... Whats That ? You Mean loose Credit Cards ..!!!!

[Malc1]

I s'pose that if enough of the 10 million OAPs having the WFPs removed are socially aware and write to their MPs then there might be enough Labour MPs to side with Jeremy C and the Left left wing of the Labour Party and socially thinking MPs to simply overthrow the Govt and eject the Sir Keirs of this world from their Ivory Towers in Downing Street

.......... someone needs to put in an adhoc Planning Application to build on the 10 Downing Street back garden .....  build some real social housing for the benefit of, well, Society ....  seems there's no stone to be unturned in favour of fresh Planning Applications ....  especially for new social housing .  and surely especially on our, well, Govt  State owned pastures even in Central London  .  on Green Park too methinks  🤣😂 👍

Discuss ...........  ??

Malc

[Cotswold Pete]

14 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

 Green Park too methinks  🤣😂 👍

 

Sounds okay to me, but maybe the 21 Gun Salutes now and again would scare the Bejeezus out of the residents😗

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

23 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

I s'pose that if enough of the 10 million OAPs having the WFPs removed are socially aware and write to their MPs then there might be enough Labour MPs to side with Jeremy C and the Left left wing of the Labour Party and socially thinking MPs to simply overthrow the Govt and eject the Sir Keirs of this world from their Ivory Towers in Downing Street

.......... someone needs to put in an adhoc Planning Application to build on the 10 Downing Street back garden .....  build some real social housing for the benefit of, well, Society ....  seems there's no stone to be unturned in favour of fresh Planning Applications ....  especially for new social housing .  and surely especially on our, well, Govt  State owned pastures even in Central London  .  on Green Park too methinks  🤣😂 👍

Discuss ...........  ??

Malc

Seems Like.. The Cats Signed a Nimby Petition.. Certainly Doesn't Want The RIFF/RAFF Moving In.. Although Is Does Seem They,ve Moved in Already Mmmmmmm.....

[Phil xxkr]

On 8/1/2024 at 10:45 AM, DavidCM said:

The latest rumor I have seen is free prescriptions and eye tests being taken away from pensioners .Whether that is an unfounded rumor or likely to happen,who knows.Given the Loony Let's track record,it wouldn't surprise me.

You have "seen" them taking away eye tests? Best get in specsavers quick 😅