Winter fuel payment

[Boomer54]

37 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

I think it's just showing the strength of feeling amongst the popualtion tbh .........  toothless maybe BUT if AgeUK gets to a significantly higher figure then it shouold make the Labour Govt sit up and take a little notice .....  maybe 🤔

Malc

Fair point !

[Malc1]

Stephen …….. I don’t know of any avenue that a group of OAPs can go down that will have any influence whatsoever on our MPs and Govt …….. Unions have the power to bring businesses and economies to a standstill ……. OAPs have zero strength as individuals and there’s no massing of a get-together economically or otherwise that can have any impact on Govt thinking 

HOWEVER maybe AGE UK is that vehicle that could harness OAP power and bring credible influence …….. that the Govt daren’t ignore ……. once the Petition figures get to a “ momentum “ stage 

I would urge OAPs to review the Petition and if appropriate to them, become a part of it 

 

WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE 

Petition with AGEUK 

 

Malc 

[GMB]

4 years of absolute majority, deaf ears and not a lot of sense. Ah well....  Not a lot we can do unfortunately.  Trouble is who can we vote for next time? Batten down the hatches, it's going to be a rough ride.🤠

 

[Boomer54]

1 hour ago, Malc1 said:

Stephen …….. I don’t know of any avenue that a group of OAPs can go down that will have any influence whatsoever on our MPs and Govt …….. Unions have the power to bring businesses and economies to a standstill ……. OAPs have zero strength as individuals and there’s no massing of a get-together economically or otherwise that can have any impact on Govt thinking 

HOWEVER maybe AGE UK is that vehicle that could harness OAP power and bring credible influence …….. that the Govt daren’t ignore ……. once the Petition figures get to a “ momentum “ stage 

I would urge OAPs to review the Petition and if appropriate to them, become a part of it 

 

WINTER FUEL ALLOWANCE 

Petition with AGEUK 

 

Malc 

I think you are selling the older age group short when it comes to leverage. In an aging society we gradually become more electorally significant. Couple that with data showing the probability of voting at all and the older age group bat circa 60 % and that diminishes significantly for younger age groups. Actually, that leverage was not lost on any party as both talked loudly about retaining the triple locked state pension. On that note I go back to my early post regarding why would you pick this topic to have a fight about with the most significant voting group in the country. I actually care less about losing a couple of hundred pounds than I do about the implications of having a chancellor who can make poor tactical decisions.

[GMB]

Yes Stephen, but they are stuck in power for 4 more years and they don't give a monkeys about us. So our voting power is irrelevant for the foreseeable future. Nurse get me a beer!

[Jgtcracer]

I wonder if I’m the only one that logs on just to see how this thread is going….

🍿🤣

[GMB]

I log on 'cos there's nowt on't telly.

[fourbanks]

5 minutes ago, Jgtcracer said:

I wonder if I’m the only one that logs on just to see how this thread is going….

🍿🤣

Thus, among the top forums on the internet that I am a member of and administer of two of them, politics and religion are off-limits regions.

[GMB]

I know winter fuel payments are an important issue for some of us but what really concerns me is how the submarine can dive if he's stuck in that hatch?

[Boomer54]

12 minutes ago, GMB said:

I log on 'cos there's nowt on't telly.

My wife habitually wears her bikini whilst sitting on the telly. It's awkward when you are trying to watch the rugby.

[Boomer54]

1 minute ago, GMB said:

I know winter fuel payments are an important issue for some of us but what really concerns me is how the submarine can dive if he's stuck in that hatch?

Clearly he is an airtight seal. I was really struggling for something better than "seal"

[GMB]

Just now, Boomer54 said:

Clearly he is an airtight seal. I was really struggling for something better than "seal"

Whale??

[Boomer54]

1 minute ago, GMB said:

Whale??

I was disappointed on searching to find there is no existing species called a Blowhard Whale. Who knows perhaps WE just found it.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Some issues with this approach. Cognitive skills and age are well researched so no point in challenging them. However, when it comes to voting I might argue many people do so without much reference to those cognitive skills. Indeed, they do so mainly using emotive reference points. These I would suggest are not known to be in decline in aging voters. Indeed, based upon my personal experience the so called wisdom/experience of older people is that they gain in emotional balance as they get older. Why? Probably something to do with the effects of chemistry governing  impulse control; the ability to differentiate between needs/wants from improved emotional control ; motivational factors etc .

I can see what you are trying to establish with your argument. I don't think you can do it based upon your current reasoning. Of course at 70 you might wish to suggest it is my reasoning that makes your point? No, dang it just not old enough yet 🤨

Well, don't speak about yourself, I have no doubt with age you got more experience, have more wisdom and can better control your needs vs. your wants. Fair enough some people are like that, but not the most.

I have experienced opposite - people with age form more rigid views that they defend without logic nor reasoning, whereas younger person could be "corrected" provided there is evidence to contrary, older people just have their beliefs, often horribly outdated ones, not relevant, no longer correct, that they will defend to their grave. That doesn't make for the most constructive voter. I know everyone hates to hear it again, but let's look into brexshaite vote, many views held were those of older generation, older people disproportionately voted for it, almost selfishly, because they won't need to live trough it. Now sure - brexshaiters would say "you see, they voted with their heart for what is right and not for short term economic benefit, they voted for sovereignty", except that is not the case - any analytical person with functional brain seen what kind of disaster it will be and unless they are merchants of disaster, or have some specific personal gain they would not have voted for it. Voting with your heart doesn't help when you are being fed shaite and misinformation and your cognitive ability to fact check is diminished. Also voting for what was right 30 years ago also doesn't help. 

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Very amusing tread especially for someone not living in the UK. I don't know the regulations discussed but i take it they are there to protect and help the weakest members of society just like in every other decent society. Also it seems to be about a match who benefits most, the young or the elderly?  Linas, if you reach my ( and most members here ) age you will see things different. First of all homeowners have been paying their mortgage all their life and IF the house is paid for it theirs. Nobody ever will be allowed to tell or suggest them what to do with it. Then there is the why don't they move. Well, whereto? If you grow older your social network gets stronger, kids, grandchildren, friends you have known for 50 years, the butcher, the pub, this is your place where you belong, your roots and want to live until the end. And again nobody can tell anybody to move, period. Then the young 30 something apparently paying 2500 a month for housing. Why oh why? Just move! to a rural part of the UK or go to wherever it is cheap be a digital nomad. For this age group it will be very easy to start a new life 1000 kms away unlike the elderly that are fully rooted. Don't rent in London and complain about the rent. Your wages will give you a much better lifestyle somewhere else just go for it, like you say, it is a choice!  Apart from that the housing market in the UK seems to be identical as in the Netherlands. Population has grown immensely over the last 10 years that the market ( and NHS apparently) cannot keep up.

Nobody is telling you to move, it is your choice... wasn't I clear about that? If you can't pay for heating for the house you paid off, then you can sell it and move into the house you can heat and perhaps release some equity from the house you paid off. It is like saying - "I bought Ferrari, I fully paid it off, but now I can't drive it because I can't afford the amount of petrol it uses... give me money, because I am old to put petrol in my tank because I want to enjoy my Ferrari". I never said anything else, but agreed with what you saying - yes over time they settled in, have family friend etc. So what? Now everyone else have to fund their unaffordable heating because they don't want to move? If they have money to stay where they living - more power to them, if they don't then it is their problem. 

Why people of working age pay high rent and why they can't just move to rural parts? C'mon you not really asking that, haven't fully thought it trough did you? Well - the difference is that working age people have to... you know... work. Pensioners don't have to work, so pensioners can indeed move to rural areas and everyone are better off, they themselves are better off in more quiet and nicer place and they get to release some equity for their retirement. Working people can't do that. Being digital nomad only works to some very specific occupations, more or less only software developers have such pleasure, and even then only the senior ones who are specialising in specific language which is in high demand, but yet quite niche. So it is not a choice for most working age people, I would guestimate it is not a choice for over 90%. It is quite silly to try to compare literal choice where the only thing holding people is that they are "rooted", and other group that simply can't do it or would be left unemployed.

To be fair I am not expert on Dutch housing issues, but just from high level stats UK housing market is nothing like Netherlands... sure all developed economies are now going trough some shortage, increasing prices, lack of builders, increased government restrictions on building, reduced supply, but UK is one of the worst places in the world to buy real estate at the moment ("buy" in a sense of affordability, if you can afford it, then it is not bad, buy because the values are increasing). In Netherlands you have mild shortage, the situation similar to UK in 90s, and 90s is when it was considered good period to own home in UK with one of the highest rates of ownership. This is not opinion - not only it is worst ratio in Europe cost:earnings, the quality of the housing is also worst, so is the price per m2 (meaning your money just get's less), so is the ratio of land:house (the size of plot compared to size of house, so they are just squeezed closer together), also the biggest gap between supply and demand in Europe, not sure about Netherlands, but UK also has archaic lease holdings, protection to renters is also worst from developed western Europe countries. It is already very bad and it is getting worse everyday, I really doubt labour will fix it either. 1.5 million new homes is just not enough, when country is short on probably 3 million already and needs 300k extra each year. So really to get on top of the problem they need to build 1 million houses a year, every year for at least 3-4 years, if they were to resolve housing crisis within their term (no such plans).  

[Bounce75]

I still stand by my original post that there are a lot of pensioner that do not need the winter fuel payment, but agree that there are probably more that do.

There should be a reasonable cut off level where you don't get help & that is what the government should put in place, not base it on pension credits etc.

Set a limit of £25k say & no one with an income of more than that gets it. That is just a random figure plucked out of the air to make a point.

[GMB]

17 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

I was disappointed on searching to find there is no existing species called a Blowhard Whale. Who knows perhaps WE just found it.

We certainly have just found it.

[Boomer54]

19 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Well, don't speak about yourself, I have no doubt with age you got more experience, have more wisdom and can better control your needs vs. your wants. Fair enough some people are like that, but not the most.

I have experienced opposite - people with age form more rigid views that they defend without logic nor reasoning, whereas younger person could be "corrected" provided there is evidence to contrary, older people just have their beliefs, often horribly outdated ones, not relevant, no longer correct, that they will defend to their grave. That doesn't make for the most constructive voter. I know everyone hates to hear it again, but let's look into brexshaite vote, many views held were those of older generation, older people disproportionately voted for it, almost selfishly, because they won't need to live trough it. Now sure - brexshaiters would say "you see, they voted with their heart for what is right and not for short term economic benefit, they voted for sovereignty", except that is not the case - any analytical person with functional brain seen what kind of disaster it will be and unless they are merchants of disaster, or have some specific personal gain they would not have voted for it. Voting with your heart doesn't help when you are being fed shaite and misinformation and your cognitive ability to fact check is diminished. Also voting for what was right 30 years ago also doesn't help. 

Nobody is telling you to move, it is your choice... wasn't I clear about that? If you can't pay for heating for the house you paid off, then you can sell it and move into the house you can heat and perhaps release some equity from the house you paid off. It is like saying - "I bought Ferrari, I fully paid it off, but now I can't drive it because I can't afford the amount of petrol it uses... give me money, because I am old to put petrol in my tank because I want to enjoy my Ferrari". I never said anything else, but agreed with what you saying - yes over time they settled in, have family friend etc. So what? Now everyone else have to fund their unaffordable heating because they don't want to move? If they have money to stay where they living - more power to them, if they don't then it is their problem. 

Why people of working age pay high rent and why they can't just move to rural parts? C'mon you not really asking that, haven't fully thought it trough did you? Well - the difference is that working age people have to... you know... work. Pensioners don't have to work, so pensioners can indeed move to rural areas and everyone are better off, they themselves are better off in more quiet and nicer place and they get to release some equity for their retirement. Working people can't do that. Being digital nomad only works to some very specific occupations, more or less only software developers have such pleasure, and even then only the senior ones who are specialising in specific language which is in high demand, but yet quite niche. So it is not a choice for most working age people, I would guestimate it is not a choice for over 90%. It is quite silly to try to compare literal choice where the only thing holding people is that they are "rooted", and other group that simply can't do it or would be left unemployed.

To be fair I am not expert on Dutch housing issues, but just from high level stats UK housing market is nothing like Netherlands... sure all developed economies are now going trough some shortage, increasing prices, lack of builders, increased government restrictions on building, reduced supply, but UK is one of the worst places in the world to buy real estate at the moment ("buy" in a sense of affordability, if you can afford it, then it is not bad, buy because the values are increasing). In Netherlands you have mild shortage, the situation similar to UK in 90s, and 90s is when it was considered good period to own home in UK with one of the highest rates of ownership. This is not opinion - not only it is worst ratio in Europe cost:earnings, the quality of the housing is also worst, so is the price per m2 (meaning your money just get's less), so is the ratio of land:house (the size of plot compared to size of house, so they are just squeezed closer together), also the biggest gap between supply and demand in Europe, not sure about Netherlands, but UK also has archaic lease holdings, protection to renters is also worst from developed western Europe countries. It is already very bad and it is getting worse everyday, I really doubt labour will fix it either. 1.5 million new homes is just not enough, when country is short on probably 3 million already and needs 300k extra each year. So really to get on top of the problem they need to build 1 million houses a year, every year for at least 3-4 years, if they were to resolve housing crisis within their term (no such plans).  

That was a professional viewpoint based upon a lot of clinical experience (not personal), but of course if you don't agree with the experience provided then there is little to be done.

Most of the concepts we are discussing here are entrenched in core beliefs. When people get to adulthood holding those beliefs then there is little to be done to really change them when the only tools available are words/dialogue.

I have found no matter how I phrase an argument, nor any facts I might provide, if I am challenging core beliefs it is an utter waste of time. The best that can usually be achieved is a pleasant agree to disagree outcome and I have no problem at all with that.That might be the wisdom of age, or it might just be I am running out of time to waste (sic).

[Linas.P]

25 minutes ago, Bounce75 said:

I still stand by my original post that there are a lot of pensioner that do not need the winter fuel payment, but agree that there are probably more that do.

There should be a reasonable cut off level where you don't get help & that is what the government should put in place, not base it on pension credits etc.

Set a limit of £25k say & no one with an income of more than that gets it. That is just a random figure plucked out of the air to make a point.

Overall, I don't like the idea of "self-qualification" in this policy... why would anyone trust person to decide if they want extra money or not? Considering it is tax payer funded, it seems more rational for the government to find those in need and add extra benefit for them if it is needed.

How about idea of estimating value of the estate... if you estate is worth more than say £250k (also plucked figure out of air), then no winter fuel payment for you. 

Because last thing we want to do is to finance heating of castles, yet it is totally possible that one can live in estate worth millions and have absolutelly no other income except of state pension.

In general, I am big proponent of asset taxation (not income) and that is absolute, not only related with pensioners, but I would tax everyone based on their assets, that would be fairest way of taxation. Taxing income is really flawed, because one can be high-earner and asset poor, yet other can be billionaire, own 5% of all land in UK, 5 mansions and have no income to speak off and pays no tax... and probably still qualifies for winter fuel payment. 

[GMB]

Now then girls put the handbags away ( especially the ones with bricks in them.)

The following is much more concerning.

This very worrying article in the Suffolk Gazette should put all our issues into perspective.

Fears were growing for world peace today after it emerged Kim Jong-un has got a new cat which he allows to play in his office.

The silky-furred black moggy has the freedom of the North Korean leader’s work desk, and likes nothing more than a game.

 

But experts in the west have become alarmed after photos emerged of the kitty taking an interest in a large red button.

Worried British security expert Lorraine Fisher, 34, said: “It’s only a matter of time before the temptation becomes too much and the cat prods the button with her paw.

 

“Within seconds, her feline curiosity will have set off scores of ballistic nuclear missiles to South Korea, Japan and the United States of America.

“It will be the biggest cat-made disaster known to humankind.”

Officials close to Kim Jong-un, who recently boasted he has a nuclear button on his desk, have also seen the cat staring at the button with devilish yellow eyes.

 

It is seen above in a photograph that first emerged on Twitter (we’re happy to give a photo credit when we know who ‘took’ the image).

However, they know that shooing it away or raising concerns to their Dear Leader would mean 25 years in hard labour camp near the Chinese border.

“He loves that cat,” said a North Korean diplomat in London. “He won’t hear a word said against it.”

Animal behaviour expert Steve Walshe, from Suffolk, said: “If you put a cat next to an object that clearly should not be touched, it will touch it.

“Normally this would something of little importance, like a cotton reel or a pencil.

“But in this case it is the button that can start World War Three.

“I would urge Mr Jong-un to keep a close eye on his new cat, or at least put his big red button in a drawer.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, GMB said:

Now then girls put the handbags away ( especially the ones with bricks in them.)

The following is much more concerning.

This very worrying article in the Suffolk Gazette should put all our issues into perspective.

Fears were growing for world peace today after it emerged Kim Jong-un has got a new cat which he allows to play in his office.

The silky-furred black moggy has the freedom of the North Korean leader’s work desk, and likes nothing more than a game.

 

But experts in the west have become alarmed after photos emerged of the kitty taking an interest in a large red button.

Worried British security expert Lorraine Fisher, 34, said: “It’s only a matter of time before the temptation becomes too much and the cat prods the button with her paw.

 

“Within seconds, her feline curiosity will have set off scores of ballistic nuclear missiles to South Korea, Japan and the United States of America.

“It will be the biggest cat-made disaster known to humankind.”

Officials close to Kim Jong-un, who recently boasted he has a nuclear button on his desk, have also seen the cat staring at the button with devilish yellow eyes.

 

It is seen above in a photograph that first emerged on Twitter (we’re happy to give a photo credit when we know who ‘took’ the image).

However, they know that shooing it away or raising concerns to their Dear Leader would mean 25 years in hard labour camp near the Chinese border.

“He loves that cat,” said a North Korean diplomat in London. “He won’t hear a word said against it.”

Animal behaviour expert Steve Walshe, from Suffolk, said: “If you put a cat next to an object that clearly should not be touched, it will touch it.

“Normally this would something of little importance, like a cotton reel or a pencil.

“But in this case it is the button that can start World War Three.

“I would urge Mr Jong-un to keep a close eye on his new cat, or at least put his big red button in a drawer.

Does not worry me... knowing the quality of tech in NK, the nuke probably would fall back onto NK anyway. 

I hope black moggy is secretly a double agent from US.

[Boomer54]

56 minutes ago, GMB said:

Now then girls put the handbags away ( especially the ones with bricks in them.)

The following is much more concerning.

This very worrying article in the Suffolk Gazette should put all our issues into perspective.

Fears were growing for world peace today after it emerged Kim Jong-un has got a new cat which he allows to play in his office.

The silky-furred black moggy has the freedom of the North Korean leader’s work desk, and likes nothing more than a game.

 

But experts in the west have become alarmed after photos emerged of the kitty taking an interest in a large red button.

Worried British security expert Lorraine Fisher, 34, said: “It’s only a matter of time before the temptation becomes too much and the cat prods the button with her paw.

 

“Within seconds, her feline curiosity will have set off scores of ballistic nuclear missiles to South Korea, Japan and the United States of America.

“It will be the biggest cat-made disaster known to humankind.”

Officials close to Kim Jong-un, who recently boasted he has a nuclear button on his desk, have also seen the cat staring at the button with devilish yellow eyes.

 

It is seen above in a photograph that first emerged on Twitter (we’re happy to give a photo credit when we know who ‘took’ the image).

However, they know that shooing it away or raising concerns to their Dear Leader would mean 25 years in hard labour camp near the Chinese border.

“He loves that cat,” said a North Korean diplomat in London. “He won’t hear a word said against it.”

Animal behaviour expert Steve Walshe, from Suffolk, said: “If you put a cat next to an object that clearly should not be touched, it will touch it.

“Normally this would something of little importance, like a cotton reel or a pencil.

“But in this case it is the button that can start World War Three.

“I would urge Mr Jong-un to keep a close eye on his new cat, or at least put his big red button in a drawer.

Put's an whole new meaning to the term Cat N

[Boomer54]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Now then girls put the handbags away ( especially the ones with bricks in them.)

The following is much more concerning.

This very worrying article in the Suffolk Gazette should put all our issues into perspective.

Fears were growing for world peace today after it emerged Kim Jong-un has got a new cat which he allows to play in his office.

The silky-furred black moggy has the freedom of the North Korean leader’s work desk, and likes nothing more than a game.

 

But experts in the west have become alarmed after photos emerged of the kitty taking an interest in a large red button.

Worried British security expert Lorraine Fisher, 34, said: “It’s only a matter of time before the temptation becomes too much and the cat prods the button with her paw.

 

“Within seconds, her feline curiosity will have set off scores of ballistic nuclear missiles to South Korea, Japan and the United States of America.

“It will be the biggest cat-made disaster known to humankind.”

Officials close to Kim Jong-un, who recently boasted he has a nuclear button on his desk, have also seen the cat staring at the button with devilish yellow eyes.

 

It is seen above in a photograph that first emerged on Twitter (we’re happy to give a photo credit when we know who ‘took’ the image).

However, they know that shooing it away or raising concerns to their Dear Leader would mean 25 years in hard labour camp near the Chinese border.

“He loves that cat,” said a North Korean diplomat in London. “He won’t hear a word said against it.”

Animal behaviour expert Steve Walshe, from Suffolk, said: “If you put a cat next to an object that clearly should not be touched, it will touch it.

“Normally this would something of little importance, like a cotton reel or a pencil.

“But in this case it is the button that can start World War Three.

“I would urge Mr Jong-un to keep a close eye on his new cat, or at least put his big red button in a drawer.

It occurred to me that an OAP in N Korea not only won't get winter fuel , but there is a good chance with views like ours that we might end up being the winter fuel !

[dutchie01]

2 hours ago, GMB said:

I know winter fuel payments are an important issue for some of us but what really concerns me is how the submarine can dive if he's stuck in that hatch?

This is the first green sub i have seen looks like a WW2 one?

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Bounce75 said:

I still stand by my original post that there are a lot of pensioner that do not need the winter fuel payment, but agree that there are probably more that do.

There should be a reasonable cut off level where you don't get help & that is what the government should put in place, not base it on pension credits etc.

Set a limit of £25k say & no one with an income of more than that gets it. That is just a random figure plucked out of the air to make a point.

Steve, this will come back to haunt you😱. Removing the WFA has nothing to do with saving money. When the real savings are netted out it will be derisory. It is far more sinister, it is purely a test of the countries reaction and resolve to the idea of means testing any "benefit" of which the State Pension is one. This is already in play with child benefit and accepted. Imagine a similar scenario whereby your total pension income exceeds X, say 25k then your state pension element reduces by £1 for every Y amount over that. No doubt the Marxist mindset of some on here will see this as being totally consistent with removing WFA? Along with the madness of Intergenerational unfairness as a legitimate argument !!! It is also clear these measures are designed to appeal to the "yoof" (votes at 16) by robbing the old and giving it to the "yoof" thereby saying we are the good guys vote for us. 

[Malc1]

Now then boys and girls  ......  yes we are in with the Labour Govt for some 4 years .  and with Rachel Reeves and her hubby on min £450k a year they really don't care a monkeys about those pesky OAPs ...........  they can't demonstrate, haven't the energy en masse to walk too far .  neither could they throw a brick, let alone the sofa they have brought for them to sit upon .............

OAPs are having to put up with this Labour Govt for sure .........  notwithsatnding the promises of NON to increases in taxation .....  many will be happy with Sir Keir and Rachel Reeves  ( RR for short ) and not worry about the Blunt Cancellation of the   WFA   Winter Fuel Allowance .....  and not be at all concerned for those that will surely prematurely die in the cold this winter 

Remember

....... . when offered the WFA there was always the option to decline to take it

The option to take it and donate it to a Charity 

To take it and actually use it towards the heating bills 

 

If you feel there needs to be some compassion for challenged OAPs then there's always the option now to sign the  

AGEUK  Petition 

now on 246,316  ................

 

Malc