Winter fuel payment

[Linas.P]

45 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Would have thought you already knew that, but your posts above suggest not.

Quote

Or we can simply call it "electoral strategy" - all parties are at fault for it. Sad truth - almost ALL policies exists in some way to appeal to certain demographics. It is just happens to be the case that for politicians the key demographics is elderly people

You are correct, not sure where the wire was broken...

So all policies exists in some way to buy votes from somebody... Although, I still believe pensioners are "darlings" of politicians, there could be many reason - maybe they are easier to sway, maybe they are more gullible, maybe they are more two dimensional in thinking, maybe their needs are simpler and more easily identifiable, maybe the fact that pensioners are most active voters, maybe the fact that generationally pensioners today are one of the biggest cohorts in society, so they always got the policies they wanted. There is theory that boomers by the way of being largest cohort always got their way with politicians, when they were young they got favourable education and family building support, when they were working in their mid-life, they got favourable employment protections and now that they are retired they are again getting favourable retirement benefits + they trust the system to look after them, so they are motivated to vote... unlike smaller generations that never got anything from government and simply stopped voting. Reasons may be many, but if we look at winter fuel, that is blatant vote-buying policy. I am apolitical as well, turns out it was labour who introduced, makes no difference - it is still pandering to pensioner votes. 

[wharfhouse]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

True, not all houses are £500k, but I would struggle to find one for less than say £200k, even in very rural areas they are expensive... sure there are some particularly depressed areas in North East England where homes are even below £100k... but even with £100k one can buy nice seaside bungalow in Spain and still have £50k left in the bank account... on top of the state pension. Basically, one can transfer their miserable life in UK to nice life in Spain + Lexus LC500.

Now sure... one may say - "but Linas - British pensioners can't go to Spain anymore"... and that is true - perhaps they should have thought better before voting for brexshaite.

Also one may say "but if life is so good in Spain, then why more people don't just go to live there"... and the answer to this is - because they are not pensioners, they need to work, they need to be at work, they can't live on the beach in Spain... but pensioners can, they don't need to travel to work, so they can take full advantage of going to the country with low cost living and take their use their assets from UK to fund literally lavish lifestyle there. Spain isn't even best value, it is even cheaper in South-eastern Asia.

In either case having £100-500k is much better than not having ANYTHIGN at all, and a lot of working families don't have anything at all nowadays, and not for lack of trying, but just because they simply can't even save for deposit to get the loan for their first home. That is real issue which needs to be resolved as priority. 

There is plenty wrong across all generations and for the young getting on the housing ladder is certainly a challenge but not impossible if one sets ones expectations right and forgoes some of the things too many often see as something they are entitled to. I know, my own daughter got herself a small flat on the south coast on her own (so no help from me). She was earning the average salary and it's a ex navy property - nothing fancy, not in such a nice area, but she is now building equity and paying less for a mortgage than she was for rent. She bought with her head rather than waiting forever for a something that her heart might want.

Back to OAPs, if you get to know people closely who actually live on the basic state pension in a small cold terraced house as their only asset and see how they live I think it would open your eyes. And yes I'm from the North of the country originally and had family members in just that position - proud people with a heart of gold who wouldn't ask for anything but were incredibly grateful for anything they received.

As we get older our views and our values change. Of course you are entitled to express your views and some are certainly valid, but there is always another side. 

 

[Boomer54]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You are correct, not sure where the wire was broken...

So all policies exists in some way to buy votes from somebody... Although, I still believe pensioners are "darlings" of politicians, there could be many reason - maybe they are easier to sway, maybe they are more gullible, maybe they are more two dimensional in thinking, maybe their needs are simpler and more easily identifiable, maybe the fact that pensioners are most active voters, maybe the fact that generationally pensioners today are one of the biggest cohorts in society, so the policies they always got the policies they wanted. There is theory that boomers by the way of being largest cohort always got their way with politicians, when they were young they got favourable education and family building support, when they were working in their mid-life, they got favourable employment protections and not that they are retired they are again getting favourable retirement benefits + they trust the system to look after them, so they are motivated to vote... unlike smaller generations that never got anything from government and simply stopped voting. Reasons may be many, but if we look at winter fuel, that is blatant vote-buying policy. I am apolitical as well, turns out it was labour who introduced, makes no difference - it is still pandering to pensioner votes. 

If you were forming policy to get elected who would you target? Voting groups who are large enough and vote enough to affect electoral outcomes, or groups that don't have that criteria?

It is a simply political reality. 

I do though wish for an electoral system that might negate that unfortunate aspect of our political system.

Sorry,your quote was from a post I had not read.

[GMB]

13 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

maybe they are easier to sway, maybe they are more gullible, maybe they are more two dimensional in thinking, maybe their needs are simpler and more easily identifiable

Funny!    They/ We are still ( mostly ) the same educated folk, with all our brain cells still intact, and wiser to boot and I think you need to have experienced the last 70 odd years to understand what really happened and how we have been treated by the "powers that be". It reminds me of history books written by people who were never actually there. Herodotus comes to mind.

It's amazing how some people dismiss their more learned elders. More fool them.  Ah well, I'm currently checking out going back to a better, more civilised country...... We will see how it goes.....

 

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

If you were forming policy to get elected who would you target? Voting groups who are large enough and vote enough to affect electoral outcomes, or groups that don't have that criteria?

It is a simply political reality. 

I do though wish for an electoral system that might negate that unfortunate aspect of our political system.

Sorry,your quote was from a post I had not read.

Again - we agree here... simple political reality.

That said some policies can at least look reasonable on the surface. Sure some group will benefit more from it, but it could have little bit wider ranging positive impact to society. Winter fuel payment isn't that... it is so on the nose "just take money and shut-up... and vote for us", that it isn't even funny. It doesn't even pretend to be policy, it does not attempt to fix something, or answer some question... like "why is the fuel so expensive", "why don't pensioners have money for basic needs like heating", "are pensioners maybe living in excessively large homes... at least sometimes".

Could that have been more comprehensive policy? Actually trying to understand why it happens, and addressing the problem and not the symptoms of it. Why even bother with age restriction? Are they saying somebody who is 30 years old, maybe with medical condition preventing them from working does not deserve supplement to cover their heating bills? They probably should have called it not "winter fuel payment", but "£300 for all those over 80 who are voting for us".

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, GMB said:

Funny!    They/ We are still ( mostly ) the same educated folk, with all our brain cells still intact, and wiser to boot and I think you need to have experienced the last 70 odd years to understand what really happened and how we have been treated by the "powers that be". It reminds me of history books written by people who were never actually there. Herodotus comes to mind.

It's amazing how some people dismiss their more learned elders. More fool them.  Ah well, I'm currently checking out going back to a better, more civilised country...... We will see how it goes.....

You know... cognitive decline with the age is a thing, so I would not count on all brain cells still being there, or at least still doing what they suppose to. I don't blame people for naturally aging, but it would be somewhat strange to believe that 81 years old has same cognitive abilities as 18 years old. 

[GMB]

Albert Einstein

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, GMB said:

Albert Einstein

He died at modest 76 (and my play on numbers wouldn't be possible with 76... or 67), but also it would be hard to argue that his peak cognitive ability was just before his death.

As far as most of his inventions goes, majority of them he presented before the age of 50, e.g. quantum theory was in 1905, at the age of 26. It wasn't like he made all his discoveries just before dying. 

Could Albert Einstein at the age of 76 be smarter than me at the age of 36... yeah, very likely, but could Albert Einstein at the age of 76 be smarter than himself at 36? doubt it... 

Unless you are suggesting most of pensioners on Winter Fuel payments and voting for often destructive thing (like brexshaite) are all Alberts and Einsteins. I mean statistics on this is crystal clear, it is not even opinion. 

[GMB]

Oh, is that the time..... Yawn.😩

[Malc1]

Linas hi …….. your self planning for a retirement away in sunny Spain Vietnam Myanmar or possibly even UK friendly Rwanda sunshine sounds interesting and we wish you well in getting the necessary visa and your private health cover sorted

Anything we might be able to help with do please ask …… we’re all the rest of of us friendly and willing to assist where we can 😄👌👍 

you possibly won’t ever need the 

WINTER FUEL PAYMENT 

happy hunting ……. 

Malc 

[Linas.P]

I may indeed need summer A/C conditioner payment... that said I don't need visa, and nobody in UK would need visa for Spain if not for some idiots voting to take themselves out of the biggest and most prosperous economic block in the history of human race, where UK in fact had disproportionate say and benefits. Sad to remind that split on demographics painted very sad picture there - people in support for leaving were overwhelmingly poor, old and uneducated. I have nothing against all 3, but statistics is statistics.

Also - just to be clear, you are wording it in such a way that seems to indicate as if "retirement in Spain" is a luxury. It is not. It is much cheaper than retiring in UK, that is the whole point of it... even poorest pensioner can retire to Spain (or... could before brexshaite) and live much better life there, and also use their real estate to fund quite lavish retirement instead of freezing in their homes in UK.

[GMB]

 

 

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

even poorest pensioner can retire to Spain (or... could before brexshaite) and live much better life there, and also use their real estate to fund quite lavish retirement instead of freezing in their homes in UK.

Very true.. The british pensioners will find day to day costs a bit expensive, but the Spaniards and French will be comfortable on their generous state pensions.

 

Just to change the mood.....

After more 5,000 people were evacuated following severe flooding near North Korea's border with China, North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un was spotted visiting the affected areas in an unexpected vehicle: a Lexus LX 600.

Despite high floodwaters, photos of Kim’s visit showed the LX 600 driving through difficult areas, including along muddy roads and even plowing through several feet of water.

[Malc1]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I may indeed need summer A/C conditioner payment... that said I don't need visa, and nobody in UK would need visa for Spain if not for some idiots voting to take themselves out of the biggest and most prosperous economic block in the history of human race, where UK in fact had disproportionate say and benefits. Sad to remind that split on demographics painted very sad picture there - people in support for leaving were overwhelmingly poor, old and uneducated. I have nothing against all 3, but statistics is statistics.

Also - just to be clear, you are wording it in such a way that seems to indicate as if "retirement in Spain" is a luxury. It is not. It is much cheaper than retiring in UK, that is the whole point of it... even poorest pensioner can retire to Spain (or... could before brexshaite) and live much better life there, and also use their real estate to fund quite lavish retirement instead of freezing in their homes in UK.

Linas ……. Wish you well in your future plans and leaving this, our blessed UK land for much better climes that will suit you more than much we could offer for your much happier future 

Best wishes

Malc  

[GMB]

25 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

you possibly won’t ever need the 

WINTER FUEL PAYMENT 

Just back of the costa del sol is the sierra nevada. It is flippin' freezing even in summer. But as we found out the winter fuel allowance was not available to UK pensioners because the calculation was based on averages - including overseas territories..

Anyway we are going to start collecting fossilised elephant dung from the streets around Chorley and store it until winter then burn it to get heat. It will keep us warm and an extra bonus - annoy the neighbours with the awful pong.

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, GMB said:

Very true.. The british pensioners will find day to day costs a bit expensive, but the Spaniards and French will be comfortable on their generous state pensions.

 

Just to change the mood.....

After more 5,000 people were evacuated following severe flooding near North Korea's border with China, North Korean dictator Kim Jong Un was spotted visiting the affected areas in an unexpected vehicle: a Lexus LX 600.

Despite high floodwaters, photos of Kim’s visit showed the LX 600 driving through difficult areas, including along muddy roads and even plowing through several feet of water.

On first topic - no they won't if they have 100s of thousands of pounds in they bank account from the sale of overpriced British real estate. Even meagre British pension will be enough to pay basics (again in theory... if British pensioners would be allowed to live visa free in EU, like in good old days when UK was part of it) and savings from real estate sale only need to last maybe 20 years top. That again - average house being worth ~£250,000, would mean something like £1000 a month for pleasure. It is not exactly "lavish", but easily comfortable sum of money. Or how about that - they don't even need to sell it, they can rent it out... and the rent in some middle of nowhere place in UK is still more than in seaside in Spain. 

As for LX 600... isn't it equipped with the new fangled always monitoring technology... that in theory should allow to remotely kill the car? 

[GMB]

But it is Kim Wrong'un No-one will dare to cross him, not even Lexus.  The lexus dealer will find himself in Stalag 51 in no time.

[VFR]

23 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I may indeed need summer A/C conditioner payment... that said I don't need visa, and nobody in UK would need visa for Spain if not for some idiots voting to take themselves out of the biggest and most prosperous economic block in the history of human race, where UK in fact had disproportionate say and benefits. Sad to remind that split on demographics painted very sad picture there - people in support for leaving were overwhelmingly poor, old and uneducated. I have nothing against all 3, but statistics is statistics.

Also - just to be clear, you are wording it in such a way that seems to indicate as if "retirement in Spain" is a luxury. It is not. It is much cheaper than retiring in UK, that is the whole point of it... even poorest pensioner can retire to Spain (or... could before brexshaite) and live much better life there, and also use their real estate to fund quite lavish retirement instead of freezing in their homes in UK.

Biggest / most prosperous eco block blah blah , oh you forgot the most (un)democratic block. 

It was as bent as a nine bob note from the very start & totally geared towards the D and FR as history tells us.

At least Thatcher told them to do one or change the rules “a bit”

 

[Tickedon]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

In either case having £100-500k is much better than not having ANYTHIGN at all, and a lot of working families don't have anything at all nowadays, and not for lack of trying, but just because they simply can't even save for deposit to get the loan for their first home. That is real issue which needs to be resolved as priority. 

Well, Labour are about to outbid everyone for homes and HMOs to house asylum seekers, in order to make good on their pledge to end use of barges and ex RAF bases. So I’m afraid your dream of resolving the UKs housing situation is even more distant today: https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/asylum-seeker-labour-migrants-v2tnwp5tp

Seems Labour hates everyone, and not just OAPs.

[Linas.P]

Somebody said seniors are not easily gullible? Yet typical xenophobic tweet creates panic?

The problem is chronic lack of housing, not because of asylum seekers, immigrants and all other scapegoats, but because in UK we simply do not build enough of them. 

Look what happens when new housing development is announced, everyone fights to the last drop of blood just to block them... "we want more housing, as long as it is nowhere close to my village"... we have almost perfect set of rules to block any and every new building, it is almost as if we don't want to build more of them... I wonder why? And then it is obviously asylum seekers coming in small boats that are an issue, despite UK not building enough homes for last 3 decades, and really not enough since 50s and 60s... and whatever is built, is usually built in the place of knocked down council estate, replacing 1800 homes with 1840 new homes... and they announce it as if they built 1840, they just somehow don't want to mention that the demolished 1800 and net benefit is only 40. C'mon you better than that - surely you can see trough this populism? Else... what you going to do... we can't vote brexshaite again, we already out of EU... they even wanted out of International Court of Human rights... just ask yourself - what country is UK if it doesn't even want to have human rights? I am not even going to mentioned that we already swimming in literal shaite.

[Boomer54]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

He died at modest 76 (and my play on numbers wouldn't be possible with 76... or 67), but also it would be hard to argue that his peak cognitive ability was just before his death.

As far as most of his inventions goes, majority of them he presented before the age of 50, e.g. quantum theory was in 1905, at the age of 26. It wasn't like he made all his discoveries just before dying. 

Could Albert Einstein at the age of 76 be smarter than me at the age of 36... yeah, very likely, but could Albert Einstein at the age of 76 be smarter than himself at 36? doubt it... 

Unless you are suggesting most of pensioners on Winter Fuel payments and voting for often destructive thing (like brexshaite) are all Alberts and Einsteins. I mean statistics on this is crystal clear, it is not even opinion. 

Some issues with this approach. Cognitive skills and age are well researched so no point in challenging them. However, when it comes to voting I might argue many people do so without much reference to those cognitive skills. Indeed, they do so mainly using emotive reference points. These I would suggest are not known to be in decline in aging voters. Indeed, based upon my personal experience the so called wisdom/experience of older people is that they gain in emotional balance as they get older. Why? Probably something to do with the effects of chemistry governing  impulse control; the ability to differentiate between needs/wants from improved emotional control ; motivational factors etc .

I can see what you are trying to establish with your argument. I don't think you can do it based upon your current reasoning. Of course at 70 you might wish to suggest it is my reasoning that makes your point? No, dang it just not old enough yet 🤨

[Boomer54]

Another thought based upon your 'who benefits' approach. We agree to pay £300 to certain individuals who are in the older age groups. What do these people tend to do with this money? Do they buy products and services (even dare I say pay towards their energy bill), or do they give it away to other people who do the same. May be some even save it and pass it along to someone younger as part of their estate. Now what all of these have in common is that the money passes back into the economy through the hands of someone younger who is still working contributing to their wages and future benefits. The only distinction is does the money pass back immediately ,or is it deferred to a later date.

Now we ask who benefits? I'll save you the trouble like many economic policies there are direct and indirect benefits that are hard to see upon first viewing. Trying to identify the weight of the benefit to different people is nigh on impossible although the timing factor is easier. Obviously , the people paying into the system take the first hit before they are benefitted later.

Following the same argument. take away the benefit and in theory you take away from the need to raise the revenue in the first place, but that is where the similarity ends. The older people losing the money actually derive no benefit at any time given they may no longer be paying into the system ( many of course are even though it is on a reduced basis). People currently paying into the system obviously should benefit if it ever LED to reduced taxes (sic) as opposed to being wasted on yet another token project.

I would say the winter fuel payment is a bit more obviously zero sum in it's affects than the subtraction of that payment which clearly looks more imbalanced in terms of outcome.

[Malc1]

The AgeUK Petition is now past 236000 ………and growing 

Malc 

[dutchie01]

Very amusing tread especially for someone not living in the UK. I don't know the regulations discussed but i take it they are there to protect and help the weakest members of society just like in every other decent society. Also it seems to be about a match who benefits most, the young or the elderly?  Linas, if you reach my ( and most members here ) age you will see things different. First of all homeowners have been paying their mortgage all their life and IF the house is paid for it theirs. Nobody ever will be allowed to tell or suggest them what to do with it. Then there is the why don't they move. Well, whereto? If you grow older your social network gets stronger, kids, grandchildren, friends you have known for 50 years, the butcher, the pub, this is your place where you belong, your roots and want to live until the end. And again nobody can tell anybody to move, period. Then the young 30 something apparently paying 2500 a month for housing. Why oh why? Just move! to a rural part of the UK or go to wherever it is cheap be a digital nomad. For this age group it will be very easy to start a new life 1000 kms away unlike the elderly that are fully rooted. Don't rent in London and complain about the rent. Your wages will give you a much better lifestyle somewhere else just go for it, like you say, it is a choice!  Apart from that the housing market in the UK seems to be identical as in the Netherlands. Population has grown immensely over the last 10 years that the market ( and NHS apparently) cannot keep up.

[Boomer54]

56 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

The AgeUK Petition is now past 236000 ………and growing 

Malc 

Don't get too excited Malc. First there is still no petitions committee and second when you are past 100,000 (which it is) then if there were a committee it would almost certainly be put to Parliament for debate. So, this petition has already made it's target for action ,but no action takes place without a committee. back to the darning.

[Malc1]

19 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Don't get too excited Malc. First there is still no petitions committee and second when you are past 100,000 (which it is) then if there were a committee it would almost certainly be put to Parliament for debate. So, this petition has already made it's target for action ,but no action takes place without a committee. back to the darning.

I think it's just showing the strength of feeling amongst the popualtion tbh .........  toothless maybe BUT if AgeUK gets to a significantly higher figure then it shouold make the Labour Govt sit up and take a little notice .....  maybe 🤔

Malc