5,000 Mile Oil Changes

[ColinBarber]

15 minutes ago, CT200NI said:

On the other end of the spectrum… I bought a 2017 Fiat Panda which had similar 2 year / 18k service intervals in the book which I thought was insane. But could this be striving to meet and exceed European eco regulations? 

Extended service intervals are mainly there to reduce running costs to satisfy fleet sales. That said, Toyota engines seem on average to easily achieve 200k miles with the standard 10k service interval in the UK (or 12.k fleet service interval). Given that most vehicles don't get to that mileage and in the manufacturer's eye this is the lifetime of the vehicle, there is no need to reduce that level.

[wharfhouse]

Well over my life I have run quite a number of cars to decently high mileages of around 150k to 200k miles (clocking up between 15k and 30k miles per annum much of it at full motorway speeds) and only ever followed manufacturers recommended service intervals and scheduled maintenance and so can speak from real experience that I have never had any issues and all ran perfectly when traded in and so I certainly plan to continue doing that. Anyone who wants to change their oil every few thousand miles is free to do so of course - it's your choice - but I genuinely do not believe that it's necessary with modern engines and oils. And of course don't forget that in a hybrid at 10k miles the engine hasn't done 10k miles as a percentage has been electric with no engine running. 

[Jgtcracer]

6 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Disagree, 10k is ridiculous mileage for oil change

I think half the problem with the oil change discussion is that so many people have different opinions on it and these muddy the waters.  If Lexus are willing to stand by a car getting oil changes every 10k miles for 10 years then should we really doubt them?  I would expect that any accelerated wear that would occur as a result of poor lubrication would show itself by then… 

I get the argument Linas but there are so many factors that effect whether an engine of going to make it to 200k+ miles that it’s hard to pin it on more regular changes. 

[Linas.P]

24 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Well over my life I have run quite a number of cars to decently high mileages of around 150k to 200k miles (clocking up between 15k and 30k miles per annum much of it at full motorway speeds) and only ever followed manufacturers recommended service intervals and scheduled maintenance and so can speak from real experience that I have never had any issues and all ran perfectly when traded in and so I certainly plan to continue doing that. Anyone who wants to change their oil every few thousand miles is free to do so of course - it's your choice - but I genuinely do not believe that it's necessary with modern engines and oils. And of course don't forget that in a hybrid at 10k miles the engine hasn't done 10k miles as a percentage has been electric with no engine running. 

Again - 10k miles service is NOT what Lexus recommends. Sadly, this is not well known fact... at the moment I can't even find servicing bulletin that explains what is needed to qualify for extended servicing intervals. But I swear there is official Lexus document stating that "10,000 miles is extended interval, that should only be used for qualifying cars". It is not for everyone, most people should not qualify for 10,000 miles service. But Lexus has way more to gain and nothing to lose from keeping this information kind of hidden. 

In hybrid, the engine is less stressed - that is true, however that isn't quite right way of looking at it. Once engine is warm it isn't really stressed anymore, starting the engine is what hurts it, turning-it off cold also hurts it, keeping engine not running for extended periods of time isn't good either. Hence I am always very careful with low mileage cars, low mileage does not help the engine. I rather take high-mileage car that was on motorway all the time doing long trips, then car that spent most of it's life parked and only occasionally was taken out. Also don't forget - most hybrids have start/stop system, which eliminates any advantage (if there is any) of engine being less stressed. 

Mileage is quite flawed metric overall, what counts is not miles, but rather "cycles". Cycle is turning the engine on, running it until everything is up-to temp (not only coolant, but also oil), then turning it off. "Cold or hot" engine is kind of misunderstood as well, engine warms-up probably within first mile, let's say 5 minutes of driving... that is coolant. Oil takes longer, but that isn't that important either. What is important however is oil contamination, when you starting cold engine, there is quite a bit of "blow by", just couple of rotations until oil film forms and the rings expand, but that amount is sufficient to contaminate the oil, also condensation in the oil accumulates when the car is parked. What it takes to get rid of that contamination, it obviously depends on size of the engine and capacity of the oil... and how contaminated it was, but safe assumption would be 30-45min of driving. That is the time it takes for all water and organic compounds to "boil-off" and leave via PCV.

I have no doubt you had many cars on standard 10k service schedule and they reached 150-200k, that is normal an not surprising at all. As far as Lexus/Toyota is concerned - that is when you would expect the issues to start, only around 150-180k, and those issues are well within spec. (Lexus spec. for oil burning is ridiculous - something like 1.1 quarts of oil per 600 miles is considered acceptable, basically a 1l/1000km!). So let's say your car starts burning 1.5L between services - this is not considered "excessive" and you may be fine. The real, engine ending issues only really starts around 150-200k. Also at least in my experience, just 10k services every year are enough in 90% of the cases to keep that engine running to 200k miles. It doesn't mean it is not being worn, but the amount of wear will be acceptable. 

Same was the case with my high mileage IS250. When I got it, it was 6 years old with 122k miles. But only had 8 services. It was "FLSH", but the owner went past 10k miles. I think there were few years where he did like 24k miles, and then he did service it twice, but engine oil was often replaced at 14k, 16k. When I got the car at 122k, it was all fine. I did 3 services at 10k, but even before service at 150k I was adding excessive amount of oil, I think I added 1L at 145k and then another 2L before it got to 150k. Also this was the point where I got VVTi rattle. So - again, this owner missed the services and didn't do 10k as he suppose to and there was issue with the car at 150k. This LED me to some experimentation with engine flushes, additives and service scheduling... and long story short... I monitored oil consumption and up-to 5,000 miles I was very little, maybe 0.5-0.8L, above 5,000 miles it was suddenly 0.5L/1000miles. So in my case it was very simple - I started doing oil changes every 6,000 miles (my annual was ~12k) and car never burn oil, or at least not the such amount that I would need to top-up between the services. Obviously, if the previous owner would have serviced it every 10k miles, I probably would have have such issue.

In summary, 10k miles is sufficient, it absolute minimum, but cars are reliable enough to be able to reach 150-200k even on this minimum. Ideally, oil service should be more frequent. 

[PRT68]

As mentioned before, I was a taxi driver for over 22 years, clocking up well over a million miles personally in many vehicles, and had several other vehicles I rented out to other drivers doing mega miles.

I used to buy them at about 100k, and taking many to 200k.

All meticulously maintained, with a lot of preventative maintainance. 

All serviced every 10k miles. 

Never stranded at the side of the road, and never had to limp home. 

Many of my friends and colleagues didn't do the same. 

One or two had engine problems, but by far the biggest killers of cars was low coolant and cambelts snapping. 

Really, many of you are making mountains out of mole hills. 

If you're doing 10k per year in a Lexus, service once a year and save yourself money, and be done with it. 

[Linas.P]

28 minutes ago, Jgtcracer said:

I think half the problem with the oil change discussion is that so many people have different opinions on it and these muddy the waters.  If Lexus are willing to stand by a car getting oil changes every 10k miles for 10 years then should we really doubt them?  I would expect that any accelerated wear that would occur as a result of poor lubrication would show itself by then… 

I get the argument Linas but there are so many factors that effect whether an engine of going to make it to 200k+ miles that it’s hard to pin it on more regular changes. 

Not fully agree... Lexus engines can easily do 100k miles with probably 1 oil change... not even joking 1 change at 50k and then it blows-up at 105k... still makes 100k thought.

So yes - Lexus can stand by 10k services for 10 years, I do not doubt them... question is - what happens after 10 years? Lexus does not care, car is unwarranted and second hand buyers are irrelevant. 

Sure - what that means, this is only relevant for people who buy second hand cars and runs them between 100-200k, because around 150k is when the engine is likely to start showing signs of wear. And really, it mostly impact people that get cars with 200k+ miles, so it at some degree is hypothetical discussion. Certainly if you not considering your car ever having 200k+ miles, then perhaps shorter servicing intervals isn't relevant. 

You particular case is exception... I would definitely do 5k services on RC-F, it is performance car, I know I would be pushing it, driving fast, revving, downshifting etc. So for peace of mind I would definitely get good oil and frequently, but that is special car that I think deserves special care. In the context of the thread CT200h, other mainstream hybrid Lexus cars etc. I think it becomes more of theoretical debate. It does not hurt, it probably is nice for the engine, but the practical benefit is questionable... If the same owner doesn't go past 150k, probably none. 

@PRT68 - to be fair I tend to agree, I guess my only argument to the contrary is - it is waste of money, but not because it doesn't help the engine (it does), but only because nobody going to reasonably driver these cars long enough for it to matter. 

[Notamech]

Honestly in my life being on various car forums and knowing people who are car enthusiasts, I have not even once heard of anyones engine going kaput because they followed the manufacturer's recommended oil change intervals. 

I feel like everything else around the engine starts to fall apart on older cars before people finally give up on them. As someone else said before, engine and lube tech has gotten to a stage that they can keep going quite long between changes and on hybrids the IC engine pretty much has an easy life with the electric motor doing all the heavy lifting of moving the car from a standstill. Thats why you see priuses that look like junk mended together with parts from breakers still going strong.

[Linas.P]

37 minutes ago, Notamech said:

Honestly in my life being on various car forums and knowing people who are car enthusiasts, I have not even once heard of anyones engine going kaput because they followed the manufacturer's recommended oil change intervals. 

I feel like everything else around the engine starts to fall apart on older cars before people finally give up on them. As someone else said before, engine and lube tech has gotten to a stage that they can keep going quite long between changes and on hybrids the IC engine pretty much has an easy life with the electric motor doing all the heavy lifting of moving the car from a standstill. Thats why you see priuses that look like junk mended together with parts from breakers still going strong.

Again - I don't think I said that, nor that the point came across.

No - the engine should not fall apart just following manufacturers recommended oil change intervals... within reasonable mileage... and that for modern Toyota/Lexus engines is ~150-200k. That is why you may see 200k Prius that looks like shaite still driving around and it's engine is seemingly good - it just has not reach the mileage where oil change intervals would be a terminal issue, perhaps burning some oil, not producing power it should etc. but not yet connecting rod trough the crank bad. And here you may say "who cares what happens after 200k" and you are absolutelly right, probably people don't care and probably it makes economical sense not to care. 

Secondly, 10,000 miles is NOT manufacturers recommended oil change interval, I really really like to find the document I have in mind (and maybe some of the people in the know can help me locate it), but Lexus/Toyota has specific conditions under which 10,000 miles is applicable, it is called "extended service interval" and not all cars qualify. So if you do qualify - all great, do service very 10k and you golden, but if you do not qualify, then you should do services every 6k or even every 3k, there are conditions where manufacturers recommended service interval is only 3k. 

Finally... again, IC has no easier life because electric motors helps from stand still, perhaps there are circumstances where it may help, but it is tiny difference. 80-90%, let's just say "absolute majority" of wear happens on start-up, very little wear happens when the car is actually moving. Even start/stop isn't that bad as initial start-up, it does not help and cars with start/stop feature do have little bit higher wear, but maybe 10-20% higher, compared to not using it.

The discussion here is not whenever 5000 miles oil change intervals are beneficial for the engine (they are), it is more of the question whenever within lifespan of the vehicle the difference actually benefits the person paying for extra oil changes. 

[ColinBarber]

8 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Again - 10k miles service is NOT what Lexus recommends. Sadly, this is not well known fact... at the moment I can't even find servicing bulletin that explains what is needed to qualify for extended servicing intervals. But I swear there is official Lexus document stating that "10,000 miles is extended interval, that should only be used for qualifying cars". It is not for everyone, most people should not qualify for 10,000 miles service. But Lexus has way more to gain and nothing to lose from keeping this information kind of hidden.

This is false information. 

[wharfhouse]

Even Lexus in the US now specify standard oil change interval is 10k miles (or 12 months) when using fully synthetic oil or 5k miles if using other oils. https://www.lexus.com/maintenance - they service the car every 5k miles (6 months) but only change synthetic oil every other service. From what I have found in the EU the oil change interval for Lexus is 15k km. I have no doubt that in the past recommendations were different with previous generations of cars but unless cars are operated in more extreme conditions than general road use (towing, dirt roads etc) the above are the w/wide current normal service intervals for Lexus cars.

I have no problem if people want to change their oil more frequently but there is no actual analytical test evidence that with modern engines and oils that doing this will help the engine last longer as once such high mileages are reached there are so many variables that no direct comparisons can be made or conclusions drawn, opinions are based on extrapolated information. Manufacturers spend billions to test cars to destruction to determine how long components last and so I'm happy to go with their recommendations and have done so for decades without problems. Yes, they only have warranty for a limited time but there are many, many cars that run fine with only manufacturers service intervals (or less in many cases) that reach 200k or 300k miles or more, again not analytical data but real life experiences. 

The OP asked for opinions from owners about the oil change intervals and he has numerous inputs from people now who have run cars to high mileages. Time to let them decide now what they want to do based on those experiences and inputs.

[Guest]

I am genuinely torn, in general I am trying to save money - but also I enjoy doing DIY work on my car, especially servicing where it tends to go nice and smoothly! 

For the normal price of a regular service £285 at Lexus, people are basically getting an oil change and a filter or two.  The way I see it... I can get TGMO oil, the washer and filter for around £100 per go for the 'middle' oil change only. Then the other oil change, plus whichever filter(s) Lexus prescribe at the current mileage, would likely come in under the remaining £185 to break even against the minor service 'annual cost' for someone just sticking to the dealer / Lexus recommendations. I suppose on those grounds, I can rationalise / justify the expense side. 

At least we all agree, other than being a potential waste of money / time, it can't do any additional harm to change it. 

I probably will go on the over-the-top side of doing it more frequently but it's definitely primarily an attitude / mindset thing more so than a concrete engine 'needing it' thing which I have concluded from the replies so far. Still interested to read anyone else's views / ongoing discussion 

[Notamech]

37 minutes ago, CT200NI said:

I am genuinely torn, in general I am trying to save money - but also I enjoy doing DIY work on my car, especially servicing where it tends to go nice and smoothly! 

For the normal price of a regular service £285 at Lexus, people are basically getting an oil change and a filter or two.  The way I see it... I can get TGMO oil, the washer and filter for around £100 per go for the 'middle' oil change only. Then the other oil change, plus whichever filter(s) Lexus prescribe at the current mileage, would likely come in under the remaining £185 to break even against the minor service 'annual cost' for someone just sticking to the dealer / Lexus recommendations. I suppose on those grounds, I can rationalise / justify the expense side. 

At least we all agree, other than being a potential waste of money / time, it can't do any additional harm to change it. 

I probably will go on the over-the-top side of doing it more frequently but it's definitely primarily an attitude / mindset thing more so than a concrete engine 'needing it' thing which I have concluded from the replies so far. Still interested to read anyone else's views / ongoing discussion 

Yeah exactly right...its more of a feel good thing. Like whenever i buy a new used car i change all the fluids because thats just what i do...theres no rational reasoning other than i feel good that everything has been done. Even if they have receipts for services they've done i will still go ahead and do it again anyway because it makes the car feel "new" to me. So you can absolutely go ahead and change oil earlier but its definitely not needed as you probably will have moved on to something else long before the engine needs an overhaul. 

 

[wharfhouse]

48 minutes ago, CT200NI said:

I am genuinely torn, in general I am trying to save money - but also I enjoy doing DIY work on my car, especially servicing where it tends to go nice and smoothly! 

For the normal price of a regular service £285 at Lexus, people are basically getting an oil change and a filter or two.  The way I see it... I can get TGMO oil, the washer and filter for around £100 per go for the 'middle' oil change only. Then the other oil change, plus whichever filter(s) Lexus prescribe at the current mileage, would likely come in under the remaining £185 to break even against the minor service 'annual cost' for someone just sticking to the dealer / Lexus recommendations. I suppose on those grounds, I can rationalise / justify the expense side. 

At least we all agree, other than being a potential waste of money / time, it can't do any additional harm to change it. 

I probably will go on the over-the-top side of doing it more frequently but it's definitely primarily an attitude / mindset thing more so than a concrete engine 'needing it' thing which I have concluded from the replies so far. Still interested to read anyone else's views / ongoing discussion 

I think do what let's you sleep at night. I have paid for the Lexus Extended Warranty for as long as I can - up to 150k miles (as I do a lot of miles my car was outside the Relax warranty terms) and I continue to get the car serviced by Lexus and will do so going forwards, along with keeping the hybrid Battery health check in place which will warranty the hybrid Battery until it's 15 years old with unlimited mileage. There are those that suggested paying for extended warranties was a waste of money as Lexus cars go wrong so little. However I've had some repairs done under the extended warranty (most recently a rear caliper replaced). I have paid a little more in extended warranties than what I have claimed but it gave me peace of mind that I was happy to pay for, but each to their own. 

As you say, so long as it's done correctly no harm on changing the oil more frequently than the recommended service intervals. 

Main thing is to enjoy the car and sleep easy at night with decisions that work for you.

[wharfhouse]

I wasn't going to post anything more on this thread but have just booked to have my 150k mile service done and I tend to check the oil on the dipstick before each service as a sanity check - just done it now and here's the result. Nothing done since the last 140k mile service nearly 8 months ago (so no oil added) and it's 3/4 on the dipstick so not burning any appreciable oil. Colour and consistency is like new with no adverse smell other than the normal smell of new oil. I'm happy with this.

[Guest]

Just got my local Toyota dealer to match Lexus Parts Direct on the service items / TGMO oil!  Woooo 

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, CT200NI said:

Just got my local Toyota dealer to match Lexus Parts Direct on the service items / TGMO oil!  Woooo 

If you are interested, the same franchise that is Lexus Parts Direct (Fish Brothers in Swindon) is also a Toyota franchise and run https://toyotadirectparts.co.uk/ - my wife has a Toyota so I've ordered parts from here along with parts for my Lexus from their Lexus Parts Direct site. The reason I mention this is that some of the Lexus parts are identical to the Toyota parts and it can be cheaper to purchase the Toyota part from a Toyota dealer rather then the same part carrying a Lexus mark-up.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

If you are interested, the same franchise that is Lexus Parts Direct (Fish Brothers in Swindon) is also a Toyota franchise and run https://toyotadirectparts.co.uk/ - my wife has a Toyota so I've ordered parts from here along with parts for my Lexus from their Lexus Parts Direct site. The reason I mention this is that some of the Lexus parts are identical to the Toyota parts and it can be cheaper to purchase the Toyota part from a Toyota dealer rather then the same part carrying a Lexus mark-up.

Yeah, I've had an odd experience with that side of the business when I had my Avensis in 2022. Called up enquiring about accessories... the guy on the phone said Toyota have some clause that forbids them from shipping to Northern Ireland... Questioned him extensively on it at the time... made no sense to me but he stood by it.  I was genuinely shocked in January when Lexus Direct Parts agreed to post to NI, but grateful they were able to.  Not sure why Toyota would split hairs on such a policy between its own brand and the Lexus brand tbh 

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, CT200NI said:

Yeah, I've had an odd experience with that side of the business when I had my Avensis in 2022. Called up enquiring about accessories... the guy on the phone said Toyota have some clause that forbids them from shipping to Northern Ireland... Questioned him extensively on it at the time... made no sense to me but he stood by it.  I was genuinely shocked in January when Lexus Direct Parts agreed to post to NI, but grateful they were able to.  Not sure why Toyota would split hairs on such a policy between its own brand and the Lexus brand tbh 

Yes, that all seems very strange...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Yes, that all seems very strange...

Yeah, I'd believe it if it were applied equally across the brands (possibly to protect local dealers) but then in that case surely no dealer would be allowed to run an online / UK wide store..  I must admit Fish Bros are smart in what they do with the online stores.  The service from Natalie at Lexus Parts Direct as well with the million questions I had back in January about my CT, as well as the response rate is superb. Certainly will be dealing with them for particular parts and accessories in the future that I can't get via Toyota. Pleasure to interact with their company. 

[wharfhouse]

10 minutes ago, CT200NI said:

Yeah, I'd believe it if it were applied equally across the brands (possibly to protect local dealers) but then in that case surely no dealer would be allowed to run an online / UK wide store..  I must admit Fish Bros are smart in what they do with the online stores.  The service from Natalie at Lexus Parts Direct as well with the million questions I had back in January about my CT, as well as the response rate is superb. Certainly will be dealing with them for particular parts and accessories in the future that I can't get via Toyota. Pleasure to interact with their company. 

Yes I've always found them very helpful (the Lexus and the Toyota side) when I've wanted parts - I tend to order from them as I can do it online and get them delivered so saves me having to take the time out to visit a dealer and collect what I need. 

[GS300h2014]

Regarding oil change interval; I was surprised to learn that most Porsche engines needed oil changes at 24 months or 20k miles, bearing in mind that they are not likely to be mollycoddled.

When I looked into it, I found they typically have twice the oil capacity compared to a Lexus e.g. a water cooled 911 engine takes 8 litres of oil. 

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, GS300h2014 said:

Regarding oil change interval; I was surprised to learn that most Porsche engines needed oil changes at 24 months or 20k miles, bearing in mind that they are not likely to be mollycoddled.

When I looked into it, I found they typically have twice the oil capacity compared to a Lexus e.g. a water cooled 911 engine takes 8 litres of oil. 

That's somewhat dependent on engine size. The Lexus F engine requires 8.8 litres with filter (7.9 litres without) - but stick to a 10k mile/12 month oil change interval.

Not that Porsche is the purveyor of reliability anyway. Bore score, IMS bearing failures, premature oil seal leaks etc.

[steve2006]

The “Car Care Nut” has just released this YouTube video regarding servicing.

 

[Spock66]

1 hour ago, steve2006 said:

The “Car Care Nut” has just released this YouTube video regarding servicing.

In summary 5001 miles and your engine is toast.....

[Guest]

5 hours ago, steve2006 said:

The “Car Care Nut” has just released this YouTube video regarding servicing.

 

I seen this, I love those videos. But again, he's on the more frequent side / what some consider to be OTT.  I suppose the conclusion to these things is that it's what you're comfortable with. And for most people who don't do a DIY servicing effort themselves, the cost of a full service or paying for a mechanics time probably makes doing it more often a considerable financial dent in their wallet. For me, £120 extra a year on top of the usual service I'd do myself to sleep well at night is worth it. 

Then again, I willingly spent this morning under a relative's Fiat Panda re-doing a timing belt job I did last week as I didn't tension it right, and I had a fun time (even having to do it again) in the process. Not everybody would enjoy doing car work even if they know how and have the facilities, some people probably see it as a chore. 

I suppose if you keep you car up to 12 years old, 150,000 miles at the normal interval you'll get there no problem in any modern Toyota / Lexus.  If you want to reach 300,000 and keep it until the wheels fall off, perhaps then the tiny gains in a more frequent change will amount to a material benefit / avoidance of some long term wear and tear deep inside the engine. That's the goal for me personally, if I can keep this car longer than the <2 years I've managed to stupidly trade myself into in the last five years. I think this little Lexus CT is a keeper though.